we've probably hashed this to death

[Picton]

And yet, we will carry on for 6 pages and counting. Apparently the topic has not been settled yet.

No, I'd say it's settled. 9x19 has "won" the caliber wars. It's the world's most ubiquitous round, probably, and it shows no sign of going away. .45ACP, on the other hand, is definitely in decline. And I say that as a guy who loves .45.

The six pages aren't about having a legitimate debate on the merits of .45ACP. The six pages are simply what happens on NES.

 

[Animal357]

Third rule of 45 club ... f*ck, it jammed again.

If your 45 jambs, its not the cartridge

 

[Nick Fury]

Mine was built in 1995. Quarter sized groups at 25 yards? I doubt that. Wilson Combat only guarantees 1.5" groups at 25 yards out of their $5k custom 1911s.

Maybe I just got lucky 4 out of 5 shots. Not going to scroll back a decade of pics to show off. Gun is more accurate than I am at the very least. Rail was peened if that helps the believability factor…

 

[kalash]

If you're on IG, look up JBS Training Group's recent video about Hackathon and Howe. It's pretty funny.

 

[Fritz the Cat]

No, I'd say it's settled. 9x19 has "won" the caliber wars. It's the world's most ubiquitous round, probably, and it shows no sign of going away. .45ACP, on the other hand, is definitely in decline. And I say that as a guy who loves .45.

The six pages aren't about having a legitimate debate on the merits of .45ACP. The six pages are simply what happens on NES.

The 9x19 is a delightful little target round, well suited for ladies and Europeans.
There is nothing quite as fearsome as 230 grains of lead traveling at 855 fps. The hood rats know you mean business when the JMB freight trains of death start rolling their way.

 

[kalash]

The 9x19 is a delightful little target round, well suited for ladies and Europeans.

It's a very effective round for a tickle fight.

 

[Realtor MA]

No, I'd say it's settled. 9x19 has "won" the caliber wars. It's the world's most ubiquitous round, .......

McDonald's is the most ubiquitous burger. Just sayin'

 

[Picton]

McDonald's is the most ubiquitous burger. Just sayin'

Right. I think anyone who, in 2024, is pretending that McDonald's didn't win the Fast Food Wars is delusional.

Success is not always about excellence. Sometimes, it's about canny marketing and figuring out distribution. Current ammo prices, which are being discussed in this ad, suggest that 9mm has better distribution and marketing than .45ACP, also. That's one of the reasons it's more available, at a lower price.

OP's point is that .45ACP gets no love. I think that's a false premise; I think it gets plenty of love, just like Wendy's. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's not "a better round" (even though I think it is, personally); it just means more people choose 9mm. And there are a bunch of good reasons why.

 

[Animal357]

McDonald’s won the war, but that does not make it better or even good.

See Betamax vs VHS.

45, round for round, is more effective than 9mm, but not by a large amount.

Bigger holes are always better.

However, for many, the increased threat of gang violence makes the 9mm a better choice

I was a dedicated 45 carrier for years, but switched to 9mm for capacity

Both calibers are poor stoppers. The key to stopping power with a handgun is shot placement and number of shots. It also helps to get the first hit.

 

[Picton]

McDonald’s won the war, but that does not make it better or even good.

I didn't say it does. But there's more to winning a war than simply being "better."

McDonald's is effective. It does its job at a great price point, reliably. It dominates its market. Its quality is not high, but that's because it doesn't need to be. It doesn't pretend to be Excellent Food.

9mm doesn't pretend to be the world's best round. It doesn't need to. It sells like hotcakes and it does its job just fine, as long as you're not using ball.

 

[Broc]

Right. I think anyone who, in 2024, is pretending that McDonald's didn't win the Fast Food Wars is delusional.

Glad we started talking about .45 and ended here. This is more interesting.

 

[Picton]

Glad we started talking about .45 and ended here. This is more interesting.

I manipulated it that way because I was hungry.

 

[Supermoto]

9mm is popular for because of two groups didn't have the skill to shoot 40. The FBI and the tacti-Instabros who spent their ammo money on sleeve tattoos and beard oil instead of training.

 

[alx]

A 45 has been known to bounce off things that a (spicier) 9mm would go through- slanted car windshields, cars doors... also there is a better chance that a 45 be stopped with certain soft armor. Add what has been said that magazines at same size have lower capacity and follow up shots are harder and it is not that is a bad round- it is that recent developments of 9mm have provided alternatives. It does have superior firepower, but folks should watch ballistic gel videos on Youtube comparing the two rounds. A proper 9mm does leave just as nasty cavity as a 45acp.

Said the above- I love both.

 

[Picton]

it is not that is a bad round- it is that recent developments of 9mm have provided alternatives.

This is a good way of putting it.

I think 9mm got a bad rap because ball is not all that effective as a fightstopper. But there are SO many ammo choices these days that the disadvantage is pretty much moot now.

 

[M1911]

This is a good way of putting it.

I think 9mm got a bad rap because ball is not all that effective as a fightstopper. But there are SO many ammo choices these days that the disadvantage is pretty much moot now.

In law enforcement it got a bad reputation because of the misguided analysis of the FBI Miami Shootout. Not only was the FBI’s analysis wrong but it was an old JHP bullet design and modern designs released since then (like the HST) are far superior.

 

[rewster]

McDonald’s won the war, but that does not make it better or even good.

See Betamax vs VHS.

45, round for round, is more effective than 9mm, but not by a large amount.

Bigger holes are always better.

However, for many, the increased threat of gang violence makes the 9mm a better choice

I was a dedicated 45 carrier for years, but switched to 9mm for capacity

Both calibers are poor stoppers. The key to stopping power with a handgun is shot placement and number of shots. It also helps to get the first hit.

Not always !!!!

 

[M1911]

I was just at the range today. I fired my 2 Glock 19s and my full size, stainless steel Kimber in 45 ACP. I can tell you that the 1911 had significantly more muzzle rise than my Glock 19s and my splits were slower (I was using a shot timer, so I’m not guessing on this).

I didn’t find 9mm to be “snappy” at all. YMMV.

I’ll post real numbers later today or tomorrow.

I competed with 1911s and carried them for years. I don’t anymore.

I've posted the numbers here: Dots, lasers, and does size matter?

 

[drgrant]

No, I'd say it's settled. 9x19 has "won" the caliber wars. It's the world's most ubiquitous round, probably, and it shows no sign of going away. .45ACP, on the other hand, is definitely in decline. And I say that as a guy who loves .45.

It surely is, but I will say that it's not dropping as hard as .40 though. .45 might be soft, but .40 S&W is dropping like a boulder off a cliff. the only thing keeping 40 alive is a bunch of low info, "hurr durr" skinflints/gun shop commandos, buying up the trade ins and a handful of LE agencies that haven't ditched it yet.

 

[DarkJoker33]

I'm going to be that guy and ask the uneducated question here.
People always fall back to the advancements that 9mm has made over the past X amount of years.
Why did 45acp stay stagnant and not go through the same advancements?
Or did it and I'm just dumb?

And does everyone always forget about the fast spicy 45 from companies like corbon or 45 super?

 

[drgrant]

I'm going to be that guy and ask the uneducated question here.
People always fall back to the advancements that 9mm has made over the past X amount of years.
Why did 45acp stay stagnant and not go through the same advancements?
Or did it and I'm just dumb?

And does everyone always forget about the fast spicy 45 from companies like corbon?

Because the difference is so little it doesn't matter. Most of the 9mm advancements were a better understanding of would ballistics and a major discarding of the large trash barge of junk science that ruled the 80s and 90s commercial gun scene. That..... and a large # of 9mm handguns were produced that met the needs of a wider range of new users. Not to mention. The avg new buying demo today is way, way different vs pre 2013.

 

[M1911]

I'm going to be that guy and ask the uneducated question here.
People always fall back to the advancements that 9mm has made over the past X amount of years.
Why did 45acp stay stagnant and not go through the same advancements?
Or did it and I'm just dumb?

You can get HST and other modern bullets in .45 and 9mm. I have HST in both 9mm and .45. From what I've read, the experience from police shootings has shown that there just isn't much practical difference between the two calibers. Yes, .45 is bigger and heavier, but it simply doesn't have much more lethality than 9mm.

And does everyone always forget about the fast spicy 45 from companies like corbon?

Again, it's just another pistol round, and Corbon has very limited real world usage. HST has a proven track record with many police agencies. Corbon does not. Why you think that Corbon is going to be significantly better than any other .45 JHP escapes me.

It really doesn't matter what you do with a pistol round -- it's always going to be just a pistol round. It will never have the effectiveness of buckshot or a rifle round. You can tinker around the edges and make it a little bit better (or a lot worse by using FMJ), but you're never going to make a huge change in lethality.

 

[drgrant]

@DarkJoker33 Corbon is also great at failing a huge number of basic gel tests in the last decade or so. Their products are all based on marketing via inflated #s on the box and their omnipresent retail presence in some shops. If it wasn't for retards at retail they'd be out of business... companies like Underwood and even DoubleTap for awhile have clobbered the shit out of them for a long time now.

 

[Varmint]

Capacity.

In Mass I like the HK45 with its 10 round mag. I have one in the bedroom safe.

 

[kalash]

Per Lucky Gunner tests:

• 9mm 124gr +P HST expands to 0.66" diameter. That's an area of 0.3421"
• .45acp 230gr HST expands to 0.85" diameter. That's an area of 0.5675"

I fail to see how a hole that's 65% larger isn't objectively better. No, it's not a death ray or a rifle round or anything but a bigger hole should cause faster blood loss and have a slightly higher chance of nicking a major organ or part of the CNS.

I'll say again: that's the only advantage of the .45acp - everything else goes to the 9mm to some degree.

 

[PatMcD]

The 9x19 is a delightful little target round, well suited for ladies and Europeans.
There is nothing quite as fearsome as 230 grains of lead traveling at 855 fps. The hood rats know you mean business when the JMB freight trains of death start rolling their way.

I love this




And also this:

9mm is popular for because of two groups didn't have the skill to shoot 40. The FBI and the tacti-Instabros who spent their ammo money on sleeve tattoos and beard oil instead of training.

 

[Animal357]

Per Lucky Gunner tests:

• 9mm 124gr +P HST expands to 0.66" diameter. That's an area of 0.3421"
• .45acp 230gr HST expands to 0.85" diameter. That's an area of 0.5675"

I fail to see how a hole that's 65% larger isn't objectively better. No, it's not a death ray or a rifle round or anything but a bigger hole should cause faster blood loss and have a slightly higher chance of nicking a major organ or part of the CNS.

I'll say again: that's the only advantage of the .45acp - everything else goes to the 9mm to some degree.

45 IS better because of the bigger hole, but not by a lot. ALL handgun bullets have limited stopping power and the difference between the two is negligible

I switched to 9mm for the capacipty due to increased gang violence. I now carry 23 rounds in my 9mm with an extended magazine compared to 12 rounds of 45 in an extended magazine.

If you are limited to 10 rounds, carry 45. If not, the higher capacity 9mm may have benefits

 

[AllaSnackbah]

HELL YEAH BORTHER

 

[rewster]

 

[AllaSnackbah]

The memes from this thread wrote themselves.