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Traffic stop; LEO asks you, 'do you have any guns in the car'
- Thread starter boatman
- Start date
You can reduce it to 4 pages if you change the settings in your Profile. That might make it better!
So, would you get up at a podium and give testimony against bad gun laws?
I don't think people were talking about "you", but more in generalities. Again, would you show up to a hearing against bad gun laws in uniform? In other words, do you stand behind your words?
I hear they are too cramped and have poor visibility, just like the Chargers.
On several occasions I have spoke in public and gave my opinion about the messed up gun laws of this state. However doing so in uniform would indicate I was representing my department. I don't have the rank or political juice to pull that off. However I do belong to the NRA and GOAL and do write letters make phone calls and send emails, and I do let them know I am a police officer. But we cannot use the department name or uniform without permission and that is not going to happen.
I also hear they are cramped when you add the cage. Not good at 6'2' 225 it may be a tight fit.
The next best thing you could do is convince your entire department, including the chief, to back you up on this. Yes, it is a lot of work, but not out of the realm of possibility. Gotta think big, you know.
nightpoison
NES Member
Probably will get flamed, but I was raised with yes sir or no sir when dealing with Leo's, if they ask I'll be happy to answer. I understand the need to protect our rights, but in the end most Leo's are decent people doing a job hopefully for the right reasons, but not always the case. They might not have the full knowledge of what they are doing, which its sad. The money we waste on the bums on 2 generations of welfare could go to proper training for Leo's.
But alas I'm an optimist and will probably never see that day.
I have put a voice recorder on my phone so I can record interactions that may happen, just to cover my back side.
Sent from my T-Mobile Galaxy S III
But alas I'm an optimist and will probably never see that day.
I have put a voice recorder on my phone so I can record interactions that may happen, just to cover my back side.
Sent from my T-Mobile Galaxy S III
The thing is though... the law is supposedly on our side here - (in MA at least) with respect to not having to notify, or answer questions, about firearms during a traffic stop.
The "cop-haters" aren't complaining about the law, they are complaining about interactions with some LEOs, and it is that which they want to change - which is why they are so vocal about it.
There was a lot of talk about how everyone just needs to be respectful and courteous. I couldn't agree more. However, I find it a little disrespectful, and rather resent having to forfeit some of my privacy in order to get a little piece of sacred discretion.
D
Deleted member 12999
My personal approach? Asking the question is verbal masteurbation. If someone has bad intentions, they aren't going to tell me the truth, and I'm not worried about people carrying anyways... theres a gun on every call I go on. my town has 60-70% gun owners. I never asked unless I was about to pull someone out of the car, and it was always very specific... do you have any guns, knives, or needles on you? Simple. If I see any kind of NES sticker though, its full retard on you.
Kicker96FS
NES Member
Never go full retard!
Well, this thread hung on longer than I thought it would. Here's my answer (and this is what having kids does to your mind):
Great post!!!
You demonstrated part of what I was getting at and that is respect. You challenged some of what I said in a respectful way. With that said I am not worried about someone with an LTC who is carrying and I stopped then for speeding. No big deal, I am not going to ask and if you don’t tell me I will never know. However let say I get a BOLO for a vehicle and your car and you fit the general description of the suspect and car. The BOLO states the suspect is on the way to kill his wife and kids and may be carrying a gun. In this case I ask you if you have a gun as I also asked for your license. You tell me it NOMFB. I then pull you out of the car and find your gun. For my safety I take your gun and handcuff you. I then find out you are not the suspect I was looking for. I take the handcuffs off and let you go.
This could have been avoided if you said yes, I have a LTC and my gun is in a holster on my right side. Here is my license and LTC. I then see that you’re not the suspect, give you your license and LTC back and tell you sorry for the inconvenience and to have a nice night.
The other factor that makes cops suspicious is most law abiding people don’t tell us to MOFB. or say things like “am I being detained or am I free to go”? Or I am invoking my Fifth Amendment rights. In 16 years the only people who have said things like that were criminals and dumb ones at that.
MisterHappy
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Topcop,
In your latest cited example the problem I see is that YOU know that the "suspect vehicle" is a "suspect vehicle," while the driver who was (at least in your example) pulled over for no reason that the driver knows of.
Right there. you're setting up a "bad cop" situation- Mr. Driver was pulled over for no reason, hauled out of the car, (apparently for being "uncooperative" in your eyes) frisked, disarmed, and (probably) stuffed into the cruiser. Then, after an indefinite period of time, Mr. Driver is released.
Wow. Pulled over and harassed for nothing.
At least from his point of view. ( You never said, that you'd explain that you pulled him over because of your BOLO)
The only way according to you that will be "not suspicious" is to produce out papers at every stop (since we may not know why we're being pulled over), as saying "Am I being detained....." puts us in the dumb criminal category.
If I misread or misinterpreted your post please elaborate.
In your latest cited example the problem I see is that YOU know that the "suspect vehicle" is a "suspect vehicle," while the driver who was (at least in your example) pulled over for no reason that the driver knows of.
Right there. you're setting up a "bad cop" situation- Mr. Driver was pulled over for no reason, hauled out of the car, (apparently for being "uncooperative" in your eyes) frisked, disarmed, and (probably) stuffed into the cruiser. Then, after an indefinite period of time, Mr. Driver is released.
Wow. Pulled over and harassed for nothing.
At least from his point of view. ( You never said, that you'd explain that you pulled him over because of your BOLO)
The only way according to you that will be "not suspicious" is to produce out papers at every stop (since we may not know why we're being pulled over), as saying "Am I being detained....." puts us in the dumb criminal category.
If I misread or misinterpreted your post please elaborate.
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Actually, it depends on which system you use to run the info; if you do it through a standard NCIC/LEAPS terminal, no; if you do it through IMC, no; if you do it through CJISWEB, YES! And also, in house systems typically will show it.
OfficerObie59
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I don't agree that sitting at DD for hours on end gives the appearance of good police work, but look at the Kansas City expieriment if you think active patrolling makes any marked difference in crime rates.
Crime prevention through patrolling methods (as opposed to community policing strategies) is largely a matter of luck and being at the right place at the right time. Any benefits are negligable.
Most police leaders don't like cops congregating because it gives the perception they're doing nothing, even if doing something may have relatively little benefit.
OfficerObie59
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Unless the information leading to the suspect vehicle identity could compromise the investigation, I usually tell the motorist the reason he's being stopped right away.
Most of time, the obvious outward display of confusion on the face of the innocent driver will tell you that's not the guy. And telling them the reason for the stop and letting them know they'll be on their way when you confirm they are not the droids you were looking for places them at ease and makes the interaction go easier with less confrontation.
Wow! What more can I say about this. The catch and release method. Simply amazing! And he even managed to squeeze in a "for his safety" too!
And you wonder why people dislike the police.
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
bfm
NES Member
Not according to Minority Report, I mean Predictive Policing.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_1...uter-program-prevents-crime-by-predicting-it/
This! The "walking the beat" days were more effective.
How true!
When I was a little kid in Brookline, I knew the cop on the beat (rte. 9 in Chestnut Hill) and he knew me . . . I moved out at age 7). When I joined our PD, we used to have to spend 1-2 hours in the town square, walk around and rattle doors after hours as well as sitting in the cruiser. We interacted with the residents of the town. Now officers spend 100% of the time (when not at a call) in a cruiser with the windows rolled up. Other than waving to them, I never get to see my former co-workers or their successors.
When people feel that they know the officer, they are much more likely to mention something and it might be useful info in some cases. Drive-bys totally disconnect the citizens from their PD! From being a little kid on up to now, whenever I walk by an officer on foot, I always say "hi" . . . unlike many here. Maybe that's why I never feared them and discount the couple of times I had less than stellar treatment by an officer (as opposed to thinking of all officers as nasty).
namedpipes
NES Member
I don't (believe it or not) think "walking the beat" is a complete solution for large communities. A part of it, probably and maybe even in the largest (like NYC).
In towns and small cities, getting to know the townfolk (and being one of them) is essential to build the trust you need (IMO) to work effectively.
dcmdon
NES Member
TopCop,
As I think I've shown, I'm not anti cop. However, I am a very strong supporter of our rights as enumerated in the bill of rights. My pet peeve these days has mostly to do with the complete disregard the courts and some LEOs have for the 4th and 5th Amendments.
I've called 911 and followed drunk drivers while a cruiser played catch up to pull the guy over, but I will never cooperate with a sobriety checkpoint to any degree more than is required by law.
I start with "I don't mean any disrespect officer but I am not going to cooperate any more than is required by law."
Then I hand them my license and registration.
This usually leads to a request for me to follow the officers pen.
I politely decline the request.
(In MA, you don't have to take the test, and the officer doesn't have to tell you its not required - Blais v Commonwealth )
If the officer is a professional, he hands my license and registration, wishes me a good night and I'm on my way.
I've had officers lie to me and tell me my license would be revoked if I refused the test.
(The DMV/RMV can revoke your license if you refuse a chemical sobriety test (CST), but the officer needs probable cause (NOT RAS, at least in CT) to
force you to take a CST, and refusal to take a FST is not probable cause for a CST)
I've had officers ask me to pull over and get out of the car. One time after this was done, I simply walked up to the officer in charge and asked if I was being detained and he said no. So I got in my car and drove away.
There is a movement in this country that is chafing at the tactics the courts keep allowing. I don't begrudge the police, they have a job to do and the courts keep giving them new tools. But conversely, the cops need to be prepared and trained to deal with a citizen who LAWFULLY pushes back.
The internet is allowing millions of people to learn about their rights and how to assert them. This is a good thing.
I've linked here before, but this is audio of the interaction a friend of mine had with a NHPD officer while OCing in New Haven, CT.
It is a model of how to assert your rights. He is polite, but firm. In fact he's much more polite than the officer.
At some point the officer realizes my friend knows his rights and the tone changes from a command tone to a pleading tone.
Again, my point is simply that we all want LEOs to enforce the law. But don't make up the laws as you go, if it suits your purpose.
Like MA, CT has no law prohibiting OC. Unlike MA, CT issuing authorities don't really have any discretion as far as suitability, so they can't pull a license for for OCing.
Don
As I think I've shown, I'm not anti cop. However, I am a very strong supporter of our rights as enumerated in the bill of rights. My pet peeve these days has mostly to do with the complete disregard the courts and some LEOs have for the 4th and 5th Amendments.
I've called 911 and followed drunk drivers while a cruiser played catch up to pull the guy over, but I will never cooperate with a sobriety checkpoint to any degree more than is required by law.
I start with "I don't mean any disrespect officer but I am not going to cooperate any more than is required by law."
Then I hand them my license and registration.
This usually leads to a request for me to follow the officers pen.
I politely decline the request.
(In MA, you don't have to take the test, and the officer doesn't have to tell you its not required - Blais v Commonwealth )
If the officer is a professional, he hands my license and registration, wishes me a good night and I'm on my way.
I've had officers lie to me and tell me my license would be revoked if I refused the test.
(The DMV/RMV can revoke your license if you refuse a chemical sobriety test (CST), but the officer needs probable cause (NOT RAS, at least in CT) to
force you to take a CST, and refusal to take a FST is not probable cause for a CST)
I've had officers ask me to pull over and get out of the car. One time after this was done, I simply walked up to the officer in charge and asked if I was being detained and he said no. So I got in my car and drove away.
There is a movement in this country that is chafing at the tactics the courts keep allowing. I don't begrudge the police, they have a job to do and the courts keep giving them new tools. But conversely, the cops need to be prepared and trained to deal with a citizen who LAWFULLY pushes back.
The internet is allowing millions of people to learn about their rights and how to assert them. This is a good thing.
I've linked here before, but this is audio of the interaction a friend of mine had with a NHPD officer while OCing in New Haven, CT.
It is a model of how to assert your rights. He is polite, but firm. In fact he's much more polite than the officer.
At some point the officer realizes my friend knows his rights and the tone changes from a command tone to a pleading tone.
Again, my point is simply that we all want LEOs to enforce the law. But don't make up the laws as you go, if it suits your purpose.
Like MA, CT has no law prohibiting OC. Unlike MA, CT issuing authorities don't really have any discretion as far as suitability, so they can't pull a license for for OCing.
Don
Ya I guess I left out that I would tell them why I stopped them. As a matter of fact a normal traffic stop with me starts with why I stopped them so there is no question.
The comment about being detained or free to go ... was just stating my experience. It is my experience that people who have nothing to hide don't act that way and smart criminals, there are a few, don't do that either.
dcmdon
NES Member
One of my cop friends used to do bicycle duty. He loved it. He said it was a good compromise between the limited amount of ground he could cover on foot and the isolation he felt in a car.
Don
dcmdon
NES Member
Forgot to post the audio clip of friends OC encounter with NHPD:
http://subtlehustle.org/NewHavenRudeOfficer/New Haven OC incident 4-2-2011.mp3
http://subtlehustle.org/NewHavenRudeOfficer/New Haven OC incident 4-2-2011.mp3
MisterHappy
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On the few times that I've been pulled over (and not in the last 10+ years) the first words out of the cop's mouth were "Do you know why I stopped you?" I've never had the PO articulate the reason. But, I'm a Fudd of a driver, minivan and all, and don't attract attention.
And....just so you know how your actions in the thread resonate with a non-cop....."It is my experience that people that have nothing to hide and don't act that way...." is likely the same as how cops feel when non-LEOs post broad statements about cops.
You seem to put a fair amount of value on "respect" being shown. So do we. But often, it seems cops believe they "deserve" respect because of the badge, and non-LEOs have to "earn" respect by going along with what the cop wants.
The scales that Justice holds are balanced.....and until the interactions between Badge and No-Badge are on an equal footing, there will be tension that need not be there.
And how many drivers answer that question, thereby incriminating themselves? LEO makes the stop for an expired inspection sticker, driver admits to rolling through a stop sign - double score!
D
Deleted member 12999
dcmdon
NES Member
And its all on tape. . . or dvr.
I learned a long time ago that he who asks the questions controls the conversation.
I don't know if LEOs are trained this specifically, but most have a great grasp of the concept and chafe at you if you begin the conversation with a question like:
Gee officer, why did you stop me?
I'm a firm believer in simply doing what is requested of you on the side of the road, so i don't do this. But I can also recognize it when a LEO does the same thing to me.
We are taught from infancy to answer questions. Many people (myself included) are uncomfortable either remaining silent while they gather their words or saying "I'm not going to answer your questions". LEOs know this and are explicitly trained on this.
I learned a long time ago that he who asks the questions controls the conversation.
I don't know if LEOs are trained this specifically, but most have a great grasp of the concept and chafe at you if you begin the conversation with a question like:
Gee officer, why did you stop me?
I'm a firm believer in simply doing what is requested of you on the side of the road, so i don't do this. But I can also recognize it when a LEO does the same thing to me.
We are taught from infancy to answer questions. Many people (myself included) are uncomfortable either remaining silent while they gather their words or saying "I'm not going to answer your questions". LEOs know this and are explicitly trained on this.
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