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Traffic stop; LEO asks you, 'do you have any guns in the car'

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boatman

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Sorry to rehash the traffic stop thread from a week ago, but say it goes a bit differently.

Officer pulls you over, asks if you know why, but you are smart. You are NES forum member and have learned not to say anything. So you say , 'no sir'. He tells you you were....(speeding, ran a stop sign, failed to blah blah)

Then he asks, "any guns in your vehicle"? This of course has no bearing on the stop, and he has no right so far to search the vehicle from the traffic infraction. But

Are you required to answer this? (assume you have a full un restricted LTC A, and are carrying it either on you or in your trunk, etc. ) And if you do, can he now search the whole vehicle, or ask you to produce it?
 
You better not lie... you can try keeping your mouth shut, but "No" better not slip out if you're carrying! You could try a response like "You've got no reason to be afraid of me, Officer." or start listing the deadly weapons at your disposal: "Let's see, I've got a 2000 lb automobile, sharp pointy keys, TWO shod feet, bony knees and elbows, karate-licensed hands, a 1" pen knife in your left front pocket, a multi-tool on your belt, chemical spray in the lower door pocket, a crowbar in the trunk, etc., etc." If you never get around to mentioning the 1911 on your hip, oh well... Maybe he'll start laughing halfway through your recitation...
 
IANAL

I spoke briefly with one lawyer a while ago who recommended trying to dodge the question by asking "Why do you need to know that?", "What does that have to do with why you pulled me over?" etc... But if the cop really presses the issue you may be 'compelled' to answer depending on how much you trust your town and your Police Chief, you know... that whole suitability thing.
If I recall correctly, you DO need to produce your LTC if asked for it.

Whatever you do, don't lie.
 
In Masss, you do not have to tell him if guns are in the car. You do have to show your license upon demand by an officer. You could reply "Officer, this is an unnecessary (or unreasonable) delay." You can then expect a ticket instead of a verbal warning.

Dave
 
ok. I know not to lie. However, Any reason not to answer yes? Does this allow the LEO other rights? (Where is LenS when you need him;-)
 
jefftk said:
IANAL

I spoke briefly with one lawyer a while ago who recommended trying to dodge the question by asking "Why do you need to know that?", "What does that have to do with why you pulled me over?" etc... But if the cop really presses the issue you may be 'compelled' to answer depending on how much you trust your town and your Police Chief, you know... that whole suitability thing.
If I recall correctly, you DO need to produce your LTC if asked for it.

Whatever you do, don't lie.
Click to expand...

I'm on the fence about the producing the LTC part. The law (like most in MA) is written missing a key sentence. The law says that it has to be produced if asked, but it's clear from the context that an LTC is to be produced if asked only if the officer has knowledge of the weapon.

"Upon failure to do so such person may be required to surrender to such officer said firearm, rifle or shotgun "

How could you be required to surrender a firearm the police officer does not know you have? What if I keep my LTC in my range bag with my firearm in the trunk. Can I no longer refuse to open my trunk (4th amendment) to produce the LTC that I don't have to carry on my person, but that the officer knows I have?
 
boatman said:
ok. I know not to lie. However, Any reason not to answer yes? Does this allow the LEO other rights? (Where is LenS when you need him;-)
Click to expand...
Why didn't you just PM LenS, then take his seminar and save bandwidth.

Next thread relating to this will be "What if I get police watching me change a flat, do you think I was printing and what would you wear aside from Speedos?"
 
Generally, in Mass, if pulled over for a moving violation the police can not delay you any longer than necessary to complete their car stop for your infraction. They should not be asking you about your license to carry. If asked you can tell the officer something like, "Officer I do not want to appear rude, but I have someplace to go. I assure you, that you have nothing to worry about with me." This will likely be uncomfortable for you, but hopefully the officer will understand and not delay you any longer.

As I stated in my earlier post, you do have to show you license if it is demanded. Most car or person searches done without your permission under these circumstances will result in surpressed evidence.

Dave
 
jefftk said:
What is this statement based on?
Click to expand...

The 4th Amendment. The same is true for any other type of seizure. You can hold the vehicle only for as long as necessary to satisfy the reasonable suspicion or probable cause which the stop was based on and owe the individual due diligence in satisfying that suspicion. Once the suspicion has been satisfied, assuming no further suspicions were developed, you must immediately end the seizure.
 
IMO I would tell the officer, they are only asking for their safety. I agree that a traffic stop does NOT justify a search or being questioned but it's a way police catch a lot of illegal guns and I believe if you have nothing to hide no big deal. Just my opinion.
 
Kisspik002 said:
IMO I would tell the officer, they are only asking for their safety. I agree that a traffic stop does NOT justify a search or being questioned but it's a way police catch a lot of illegal guns and I believe if you have nothing to hide no big deal. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

No justification is needed to be questioned. Justification is needed to be searched or seized, not questioned.
 
It would be more effcient for the cops to randomly check dwellngs for llegal guns, and other llicit substances.

If you have nothng to hide, why would you not let them in?

Starting wth a list of LTC holders, the cops can just knock, and ask to take a look around.

As to the premse in the OP - if the cops want to search your vehicle, they'll find a reason, I'd guess....
 
You can try playing games but it probably wont end well.
As others have stated, don't get caught up in a lie.
The muddy laws help and hurt both sides of this situation. In most cases it is a situation you will not win.
It also depends on the cop and his day. If he has already pulled over 10 road side lawyers that day he may not want to hear another one.
 
boatman said:
Then he asks, "any guns in your vehicle"? This of course has no bearing on the stop, and he has no right so far to search the vehicle from the traffic infraction. But

Are you required to answer this? (assume you have a full un restricted LTC A, and are carrying it either on you or in your trunk, etc. ) And if you do, can he now search the whole vehicle, or ask you to produce it?
Click to expand...

You answer Yes. Then you say "I will show you mine if you show me yours".
 
jefftk said:
What is this statement based on?
Click to expand...

The case is Commonwealth v. Torres, 424 Mass 153 (1997)(police may only detain a motorist as long as it is necessary to effectuate the purpose of the stop).

As a practical matter, it would be highly unusual for a police officer to ask that question during a routine traffic stop for a moving violation. If he does, you have to answer 'yes' - lying to the police is a bad idea. Again, it is unlikely that a police officer would ask you about weapons if you are stopped for speeding.
 
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Officer, I have one helluva big 2 gauge donut shooter in the trunk, wanna see it?

Seriously, you could say "Ah, sir, curious as to why that question is relevant" and see how he/she responds. Probably the officer will say "my safety". But as others have said, I would probably just tell them I am a lawful gun owner and have an X and Y in the vehicle with me.
 
Kisspik002 said:
IMO I would tell the officer, they are only asking for their safety. I agree that a traffic stop does NOT justify a search or being questioned but it's a way police catch a lot of illegal guns and I believe if you have nothing to hide no big deal. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

If a cop has to ask for his safety...then he has already called and waited for backup and would draw on you.
 
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