To Carry or Not

[dwarven1]

I was in Boston last night to see All Shook Up. (great musical, BTW!) You can bet I was in condition yellow (shading towards orange!) all the way back to my car. (and yes, I was in condition yellow while walking to the show, too - Have I mentioned here that I DON'T like cities?)

 

[JellyFish]

You are wise. I just took the trash out and, yes, I was paying attention to my surroundings and yes, I had a little surprise in my pocket should I have encountered any unfriendlies. I live in a reasonably good neighborhood but we just had an armed robbery over on spring street and there's other crimes that happen here. Unlike some of the sheep that live here, I don't assume that I am always safe. I pay attention and I make sure as much as I can that I'm ready.

I was in Boston last night to see All Shook Up. (great musical, BTW!) You can bet I was in condition yellow (shading towards orange!) all the way back to my car. (and yes, I was in condition yellow while walking to the show, too - Have I mentioned here that I DON'T like cities?)

 

[CRSIII]

Despite my crack team of researchers, I am unable to find the facts to back up my statement. When I went to S&W to attend "CCW school", 5 rounds in Boston city limits was stressed. I will continue to learn as I go, as it has become apparent to me, according to my children, the older I get, the less I know.

 

[K-DUB]

Thanks for clarifying Ross...it takes me a while to catch on.

Oh, & Brent, ALWAYS carry.
Semper Paratus

 

[adweisbe]

I'd say you need to wear your seatbelt every time you get into your car.

Figuring out when you need to carry is like trying to figure out when you need to wear your seatbelt.

Different level of risk. Risk risk risk. It's where insurance companies make their money. By and large violence is not random or undirected. Risk can be managed with a gun, seatbelt, fire extinguisher, cell phone etc. Each method costs money and provides preventative "coverage" for a certain amount of risk. There is a cost benefit ratio here. Try and see if you can use the available data to calculate the likelihood you will need coverage, try and identify what risk factors you have in comparison to other people who have needed coverage in the past (whether they had it or not), and in some cases it might be necessary to see if a certain method of coverage actually helped reduce risk/damages.

Take the following stat, 30 murdered/ 100,000 people per year. It's a stat from some country, can't remember which. Assume you will have 60 years of exposure to this level of risk. A single individual with no adjustments has a 1 in 55 chance of being murdered. Now take where I live, 3 murdered / 100,000. 1 in 555 chance I will be murdered. If you take adjustments into account I think my level of risk falls rapidly, I don't drink, I don't hang around people who drink, I don't do drugs, there is not alot of heavy drug usage where I live, I don't associate with people who do drugs. It's impossible for me to make an argument as to how much the adjustment should count for, but in my estimation it brings it up to at least 1 in 2000. The FBI has published a lot of information that is useful in determining what the risk factors are for various types of crime. For instance, most people knew their rapist/attacker. A huge proportion of violence is drug and/or alchohol related.

This could be youthful invincibility talking or stupidity as some posters like to call it. I really wonder how many people have actually sat down and tried to think about the level of risk posed by everything in their lives, is the person who chooses not to carry really so stupid?

I see risk in driving, eating, and exercising (or not). The $650 dollars I could have spent on a carry rig went to defensive driving lessons. A lot of the money I could spend on training goes to buying higher quality food and the time should go to exercise.

I think alot of people mix right to carry with need to carry order to protect/enhance the former. I firmly believe in a right to carry without a permit anywhere you want (private property that prohibits excluded), it doesn't mean that I have to in order to reasonably manage risk. To say that I do without providing some statistical backup might even be intellectualy dishonest as it is not self evident to me.

Part 2 for tommorrow, risk/exposure to automobile accidents...

 

[dwarven1]

It's impossible for me to make an argument as to how much the adjustment should count for, but in my estimation it brings it up to at least 1 in 2000.

And what do you do if you hit that 1 in 2000 chance?

 

[drgrant]

This could be youthful invincibility talking or stupidity as some posters like to call it. I really wonder how many people have actually sat down and tried to think about the level of risk posed by everything in their lives, is the person who chooses not to carry really so stupid?

I see risk in driving, eating, and exercising (or not). The $650 dollars I could have spent on a carry rig went to defensive driving lessons. A lot of the money I could spend on training goes to buying higher quality food and the time should go to exercise.

I won't go so far to call those that don't carry "stupid". It's a personal
choice people make. Some of us cannot carry (myself included) most of
the time because of work, dumbass laws (in my case its the MGL thing
about what constitutes a "school" ) amongst other things.

On the other hand, when I -can- carry a gun, I do so.

If I could easily dump my job, and get another with halfway decent
pay and security, that would allow me to carry 24/7, though.... I'd
do it in a heartbeat.

I'm not going into the whole diatribe about how stats are meaningless
when your number is called, and the like... I'm sure someone else
might, but that isn't my point. (Although, I have to say, I agree
with them. All stats become meaningless when that event occurs... )

The reason I carry when I can, is because I can stand dying from a heart attack,
cancer, or some random car wreck. I'll be damned though if I'm going to let some
scumbag get away with turning me into their next victim... and anything I can do
to -prevent- that is a good thing. It's a personal thing. I've already been a
victim of a -non violent- crime, a theft. That was a violating experience, even
though it only involved property. I can only imagine what people who have been
victims of -violent- crime have experienced. I'd prefer not to go there, or at least
go down fighting, if I have to (fwiw, fighting means fighting, gun or no gun.... just
that being armed can tilt the odds in your favor considerably!)


-Mike

 

[JellyFish]

Brent, the crime stats page is actually up on the Boston PD site.

Go and check that out, it's an eye opener...

 

[wilfx]

It was in our local paper yesterday that violent crime in or area has increased. My town being the worst per capita. I live in the burbs way outside of Boston. It could never happen here type of a place. Then yesterday one of the guys that pumps gas came inside the shop and started telling us about these kids who had been harrassing him and other people. He told me they needed to pick a fight so someone would beat them. then supposedly they other would take a picture of the event to prove what had happened. All this was an initiation to get into a gang! they were 14 year old punks. I heard them threatening this 40 year old guy telling him they knew where he lived, they would catch up with him and that they were watching him. They also walked up to some old man on the sidewalk in the center of town and just knocked him over. No one witnessed this, the cops were called but nothing was done. Moral of the story, I am not taking any chances. Me or a punk, no question.
Then we had an incident in my backyard. During the day my wife was home with the 5 year old. She was on the deck having a smoke. (which I don't condone) Some guy starts running around my back yard looking in the bushes and in my shed.She asks what's up. He says some guy stuck a shotgun in his face threatening to kill him. My wife calls the cops. They come down and eventually find him in the woods across the street acting very strange. It turns out he was WAY High on crack and out of his mind.
Anyway we now have a new addition to the family S&W model 642 airweight 38 special. Nice little pocket gun.

 

[MegaPlinker]

I don't carry because of my job, and I feel secure enough in the area I live. Given the potential legal problems of an armed conflict (Justified or not) I don't feel the need right now.
If I were spending a lot of time in manchester, nashua, or mass. that would be an entirely different story. I would definetly look into it.

 

[FalArAk]

I carry wherever I go,even to the mall.You never know when the Emo kids will attack.

 

[wilfx]

EMO kids?

 

[Coyote33]

Right now, I feel my weight is more of a risk than some stranger at Quincy Market. Sure, I could be wrong about the stranger, but I'm pretty sure of the other part.

Those of you here who are overweight know who you are, and you're fooling yourselves if you think carrying a gun will help you live longer than losing the weight.

In that light, concealing a gun is probably easier than concealing your weight.

(Feeling out of shape on a rainy Sunday.)

 

[Rob Boudrie]

From the point of risk management, I always find it amusing to hear someone explain how they never go anywhere unarmed because of the "risk" ... and offer the explaination while smoking.

For anyone not living the urban gang/drug lifestyle, not smoking will do far more to add years to your life than making sure you never travel unarmed.

 

[Brent]

Well the day was a great time and I decided to leave it in the car locked up. I didn't want to be restricted to not drinking and having a good time while she was. In the end, we were never in the questionable parts of boston where we felt uncomfortable.

Thanks all for your replys.

 

[matt]

As long as you won't be drinking, why not?

edit: guess I should have read to the end of the thread before posting!! Good choice if you were going to drink!

 

[Garys]

To carry or not is a personal decision, which is rather obvious. I don't know that I'd worry more about being in most parts of Boston than I would anywhere else. Boston is overall a pretty safe city.

If you look at the homicides you'll see a geographic, demographic, and activity pattern to them. The tourist and entertainment areas of the city don't fall into that pattern. If I were to go to say Fanueil Hall, the waterfront, or Kenmore, no red flags would be raised in my mind. Yeah, I have "inside information" from having worked in Boston since the late 1970s, but it's nothing that anyone else couldn't figure out with a little bit of research.

There are definitely areas of Boston I wouldn't venture into after dark, but unless you have a really crappy sense of direction, very few people who participate here would end up in those areas. If Len serve's process in Boston, he might, but even then I'd expect that he'd be there mostly during the daylight hours and would be armed.

Frankly, I'd be more likely to carry if I were going into Brockton or Lawrence than Boston.

Gary

 

[vellnueve]

I live in Boston with a neutered license. It's not a particularly bad area but there is violent crime here. If I could, I would carry just walking the 30 feet from my back door to the driveway where my car is.

 

[Len-2A Training]

There are definitely areas of Boston I wouldn't venture into after dark, but unless you have a really crappy sense of direction, very few people who participate here would end up in those areas. If Len serve's process in Boston, he might, but even then I'd expect that he'd be there mostly during the daylight hours and would be armed.

Well you are right about a few things:

- If I'm out serving process in MA, I'm armed.
- Interestingly, if serving individuals it's almost 100% night-time work . . . it's the most likely time to find them home.
- If it were in a less than stellar Boston area and it required a night-time visit, I would sub-contract it out to one of the Boston Constables that I know.
- There are areas of Boston that I have no desire to ever visit! I have refused a lot of computer work in earlier years when the phone numbers traced back to parts of Boston. I seemed to have forgotten to return those calls!
- I had an out-of-state request to serve process in one of the "less attractive" areas of Brockton (would have been an individual at night). I didn't outright refuse, but jacked my price up by $30 . . . they asked why so expensive and I gave them an honest answer, they went elsewhere and I was just as happy to lose the business.

BUT, Crime can come to you! NO matter where you are, so you MUST keep your wits about you, and "travel prepared"! Your safety and life may depend on it.

 

[Garys]

Well you are right about a few things:

Generally, I am. <G>

- If I'm out serving process in MA, I'm armed.

That makes sense.

- Interestingly, if serving individuals it's almost 100% night-time work . . . it's the most likely time to find them home.

This too makes sense, although I suppose it might depend on the individual.

- There are areas of Boston that I have no desire to ever visit! I have refused a lot of computer work in earlier years when the phone numbers traced back to parts of Boston. I seemed to have forgotten to return those calls!

There are areas where I have no desire to visit, but I don't have a choice. <G>

- I had an out-of-state request to serve process in one of the "less attractive" areas of Brockton (would have been an individual at night). I didn't outright refuse, but jacked my price up by $30 . . . they asked why so expensive and I gave them an honest answer, they went elsewhere and I was just as happy to lose the business.

Two technical questions. Do you ever bring along back up? Do you ever request (and get) assistance from the local PDs for serving process?

BUT, Crime can come to you! NO matter where you are, so you MUST keep your wits about you, and "travel prepared"! Your safety and life may depend on it.

Speaking of which, here's a post from one of my favorite blogs on the subject.

http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2006/10/meditations-on-combat-mindset.html

Being aware of who and what is around you is part of this. If you don't look like a victim, you reduce your chances of becoming one.

Gary

 

[Len-2A Training]

Gary,

When you work for yourself, you can easily refuse any work where the risk to reward ratio doesn't work for you.

No, I never take backup serving process. I do practice situational awareness and "command presence" and that will work for >99% of the situations.

When making an arrest, I won't do it without another Constable as backup. I will usually also notify the local PD in advance (also true on evictions) and will request backup by PD if I sense anything squirrelly or in at least one case the local PD "requested permission to accompany us" on an arrest as he was well-known to them.

For a recent eviction (suburban town), I had gathered intel that led me to positive knowledge that Boston has an active arrest warrant out on the guy for drugs, A&B on PO, resisting arrest and probation violation. The landlord had ascertained that he had/was moving out and nobody had seen him in a few weeks, otherwise I was prepared to go in with the local PD, hand him the eviction papers and let the PD put the silver bracelets on him and take him away.

 

[Garys]

Sounds like a recipe for a long healthy career as a Constable.

Gary

 

[Len-2A Training]

As for "safe areas" here's a true story of what happened to me in the late-1960s.

Randolph Post Office used to be on a side street Downtown, across from a medical building. I pull up in front of the USPO as some kids are rifling cars parked along the street. This was probably sometime between 6 and 8PM during the week. [Back in that time-frame, Randolph truly was a safe community, totally unlike what the town has turned into these days.]

They come over to me and assault me as I'm standing next to my car. I recognize one of them by the features of his face as someone who has to be the Brother of a former RHS classmate who was then a Randolph PO.

I head over to the PD and file a complaint/report. I told them that I suspect that it was Officer x's Brother. Never heard another word about it, I'm sure that they "round-filed" it when I left the PD. I knew the Chief, Lt. and Sgt but never pushed it.

There are NO SAFE AREAS!!

 

[Arioch]

I would, and do.

 

[Jay G]

I don't care if the odds on me becoming a victim of violent crime are 1 in a million. It doesn't mean squat if I am that one...

And I will be stone cold dead before someone I love becomes that one.

I don't care if it's a child's birthday party at the local amusement center. I'm packing.

Google the name "Buford Furrow". How many people would think that they'd have to worry about getting shot picking their kids up at a daycare center?

Google "Dan McKown". Confronted a lunatic with a rifle in the mall.

Google "Shawn Roberts". Shot a carjacker who killed a woman he had taken hostage (add "GA" because apparently there are numerous sports figures and actors with that name...)

It happens. Ordinary people in ordinary situations (picking kids up from day care, going to the mall, driving down the street) can, have, and statistically will be confronted by violence.

Taking your protection into your own hands, rather than ceding it to law enforcement, is no guarantee that you will prevail or even survive an encounter with a violent criminals.

But at least you'll have a fighting chance. An unarmed person has little chance against an armed assailant. Carrying a firearm for protection significantly tilts the odds back in your favor.

For me, carrying around a pound-and-a-half of gun, leather, and ammo is a small sacrifice to make to know that I can meet violence with violence should the need arise. What's the worst that can happen? I come home and put the gun back in the safe. As long as I'm carrying where I am legally allowed, and I'm being smart about what and how I'm carrying (i.e. not open carry or trying to conceal my 6" barreled Security Six...), there is literally no harm that can come of it.

I am not willing to bet on the kindness of criminals. I am willing to bet on Señors Smith and Wesson.

(And WRT weight issues - I've dropped 43 pounds this year, with an eye towards another 30. I quit smoking almost 6 years ago).

ETA: I don't think that people who do not carry are "stupid" or anything like that. I don't like the argument that one shouldn't carry because an area is "safe" is all. I don't think any place is truly safe)

This could be youthful invincibility talking or stupidity as some posters like to call it. I really wonder how many people have actually sat down and tried to think about the level of risk posed by everything in their lives, is the person who chooses not to carry really so stupid?

 

[v13]

Like Vellnueve, I live in Boston with a target restricted license. The areas I work and live in are statistically the "safer" ones to be in. That said, there was a double homicide 2 blocks from me at the beginning of the year (suspected drug activity). The time I most wish I had the ability to carry is when I have to carry my unloaded and cased firearms to and from my apartment to my car. It's always a very short walk. I look just like every other college kid with a backpack on but it's not a comfortable feeling at all.

I live in Boston with a neutered license. It's not a particularly bad area but there is violent crime here. If I could, I would carry just walking the 30 feet from my back door to the driveway where my car is.

 

[Jaxon]

Always

RJ

 

[JellyFish]

I think Boston can be a very deceptive city. Yes, certain areas have higher crime rates than others. But that does not mean that if you just stick to the "better" areas that you will avoid crime. Sometimes it will find you, regardless of where you are.

 

[Coyote33]

Police investigate holdup at popular eatery By Megan Tench, Globe Staff Boston police are searching for two men who made off with $3,000 in cash during a robbery at The Elephant Walk restaurant early today.

 

[SnakeEye]

violence will find you anywhere you go, just ask those children in the Amish school house.
That setting couldnt have been any more detached from the usual socioeconomic factors that are typically thought to nurture violent crime, yet it found them there nonetheless.

this is an issue of constant tension between me and my live in girlfriend of the last 8 years. She gets upset when i carry to every little thing from supermarket trips to family outings., She always says "your not going to need that where were going".
to which the best response, and one i got from here was.
if i really thought i needed to carry we wouldnt be going out..