Thoughts on SBR vs no SBR

[kingson]

What are peoples thoughts on SBR's. On some guns it makes them more usable. Say like the GSG MP40P. It 's useless in the pistol form but with a stock on it, it seems much easier to use. Or an Uzi, it usable in it's rifle form. With the short barrel on it it's got the original look to it and it's still usable. With SBR's there are the legal issues with them too. You can't just lend it to a friend, you have to ask permission to take it over state lines and there is the $200 tax stamp. Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on it. I have a few guns that I would like to SBR but trying to figure out if it is worth it or not.

 

[CrackPot]

If you lived in MA I would say that the SBR allows you to get setups in MA you can't otherwise have. As you are in NH, why SBR what you can put a pistol brace on and call it a day? You have no restrictions on movement or loaning it to friends.

MA AR Pistols, AK pistols, MP5, Scorpion, etc are all assault weapons in pistol form. In NH, use them as pistols or put a pistol brace on them and call it good.

 

[widnerkj]

I’m in AZ, so my reasons are fairly simple. I’m also skinny with short arms. So the “pistol brace” saves me $200 for picking up more ammo.

 

[kingson]

If you lived in MA I would say that the SBR allows you to get setups in MA you can't otherwise have. As you are in NH, why SBR what you can put a pistol brace on and call it a day? You have no restrictions on movement or loaning it to friends.

MA AR Pistols, AK pistols, MP5, Scorpion, etc are all assault weapons in pistol form. In NH, use them as pistols or put a pistol brace on them and call it good.

I can see what you are saying about AR's AK's etc. They make braces for them. There is the consideration that the ATF might change there mind on pistol braces.
There are some guns that they don't make braces for. Those are the ones that I was more thinking of.

The guns I'm thinking about doing are
MP40P, would be much better with stock on it than pistol form
PPS43P, would be much better with stock on it than pistol form
Uzi, for the "look"
Suomi M31 again for the look.

 

[frenchman]

Since braces are a thing, SBRs don't make much sense anymore. And since shouldering a brace is fine with the ATF, I don't see the point of the application/tax stam/wait time.

 

[JRT]

SBR everything because even the coolest brace is a little

 

[PappyM3]

I can see what you are saying about AR's AK's etc. They make braces for them. There is the consideration that the ATF might change there mind on pistol braces.
There are some guns that they don't make braces for. Those are the ones that I was more thinking of.

The guns I'm thinking about doing are
MP40P, would be much better with stock on it than pistol form
PPS43P, would be much better with stock on it than pistol form
Uzi, for the "look"
Suomi M31 again for the look.

If you’re thinking about guns that can’t easily be braced, then yeah, SBR them. E-form 1s are coming back from the ATF in like a month. Pay $60 for a trust, file your e-form 1, engrave the gun, wait a month and have fun. It’s annoying to have to get permission to take them out of state, but if you remove the stock then it temporarily isn’t an SBR anymore and you can travel freely with it if it’s a spur of the moment trip. But the permission can last a year, so it’s not that big of a deal.

So yeah, SBR away.

 

[Davidk]

And wasn't it his fault their mom got thrown from horse and died or was that Beth's trauma?

Since braces are a thing, SBRs don't make much sense anymore. And since shouldering a brace is fine with the ATF, I don't see the point of the application/tax stam/wait time.

+1 You need a tax stamp, long wait for tax stamp, requires ATF permission to take out of state and nearly unsellable used since pistols are all the rage.

A pistol can be in the passenger compartment of your vehicle and you can take it anywhere pistols are legal.

No reason in the world to SBR anymore

 

[PappyM3]

+1 You need a tax stamp, long wait for tax stamp, requires ATF permission to take out of state and nearly unsellable used since pistols are all the rage.

A pistol can be in the passenger compartment of your vehicle and you can take it anywhere pistols are legal.

No reason in the world to SBR anymore

A month (or sometimes less) is a long wait? I get your points, and for some guns there really is little reason to SBR over a brace.

But MP40 and PPS43 clones he is talking about, don’t have good brace options.

 

[Davidk]

I was not familiar with the MP 40 so I checked it out

TTAG review was not impressive

Gun Review: GSG MP40 9mm - The Truth About Guns

 

[CoastieRon]

SBR. Come see me, I'll do your prints for free.

 

[Reptile]

If you make a SBR, you can have a adjustable stock, right?

That should be reason enough.

 

[headednorth]

If you make a SBR, you can have a adjustable stock, right?

That should be reason enough.

Outside of MA pistol braces can be adjustable, inside MA AWB still applies to SBRs afaik.

 

[JRT]

+1 You need a tax stamp, long wait for tax stamp, requires ATF permission to take out of state and nearly unsellable used since pistols are all the rage.

A pistol can be in the passenger compartment of your vehicle and you can take it anywhere pistols are legal.

No reason in the world to SBR anymore

An SBR is treated the same as a pistol in most states. Loaded on the seat is fine. My last stamp was 21 days, is that a long wait?

 

[teamRR]

Other than a small cool factor, today's laws in a free state make a braced pistol about as good without any concern over maintaining possession.

What may change in the future I can't say, that's about the only reason I would go SBR (ie if pistol braces and new SBR's got banned simultaneously)..

 

[Dennis in MA]

Wait. If I SBR'd one, I could have one of those 9mm MP40's in Mass?????

Where would one get a replacement folding stock?? IS THAT legal in mASS??? (Yeah, now we hit the "is an SBR a pre-ban argument" don't we?)

 

[frenchman]

Mp40 without full auto makes it a "halbautomatische Pistole". For that thing, the same reasoning as for the MPX applies: submachine guns that aren't full auto are semi-sub-no-machine guns, and therefore gayer than fanny packs and appletini.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Putting aside state to state laws and brace vs SBR for a moment and just talking about mechanical advantage, you have to keep in mind brace length barrel/SBR are two very different animals depending on rifle caliber or PCC. For instance, if you braced/SBR'd a 556/223 and went from a 16" barrel to a 6" barrel (as a more aggressive example), you'd lose between 900-1,000 fps on the round. For PCC, it is far less severe, at about 100-200 fps with the same scenario. So bracing/SBR'ing a PCC isn't as much of a performance consideration as it is with rifle caliber guns.

So I think I'd only brace/SBR a rifle caliber gun if I had a distinct trade off goal in mind. Many do this because they want the shorter OAL for a house PDW. And that's a ok trade off, as you won't need as much performance in that scenario. But there are some, I'd suspect, who brace/SBR for the look without putting much thought into performance.

 

[kingson]

So here is another question. If you where a 07FFL with a SOT and didn't have to pay the $200 tax on each SBR and didn't have to wait for premission to make them would that change your opinion on SBR's?

 

[Masswhole]

If you’re thinking about guns that can’t easily be braced, then yeah, SBR them. E-form 1s are coming back from the ATF in like a month. Pay $60 for a trust, file your e-form 1, engrave the gun, wait a month and have fun. It’s annoying to have to get permission to take them out of state, but if you remove the stock then it temporarily isn’t an SBR anymore and you can travel freely with it if it’s a spur of the moment trip. But the permission can last a year, so it’s not that big of a deal.

So yeah, SBR away.

Forgive my ignorance.
If i'm reading you correctly one could just put a brace on their SBR if leaving MA (without paperwork) and it's then considered a pistol?
I'm building one as truck gun but go to maine frequently to our camp.

 

[JRT]

Putting aside state to state laws and brace vs SBR for a moment and just talking about mechanical advantage, you have to keep in mind brace length barrel/SBR are two very different animals depending on rifle caliber or PCC. For instance, if you braced/SBR'd a 556/223 and went from a 16" barrel to a 6" barrel (as a more aggressive example), you'd lose between 900-1,000 fps on the round. For PCC, it is far less severe, at about 100-200 fps with the same scenario. So bracing/SBR'ing a PCC isn't as much of a performance consideration as it is with rifle caliber guns.

So I think I'd only brace/SBR a rifle caliber gun if I had a distinct trade off goal in mind. Many do this because they want the shorter OAL for a house PDW. And that's a ok trade off, as you won't need as much performance in that scenario. But there are some, I'd suspect, who brace/SBR for the look without putting much thought into performance.

Your example is a bit extreme, four or six in ARs are toys and often unreliable even when they are piston guns. An AR with a 10.5 or 11 inch barrel drops between 300 and 400 FPS compared to 16, an 11 barrel AR has quite a lethal range.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

If you’re thinking about guns that can’t easily be braced, then yeah, SBR them. E-form 1s are coming back from the ATF in like a month. Pay $60 for a trust, file your e-form 1, engrave the gun, wait a month and have fun. It’s annoying to have to get permission to take them out of state, but if you remove the stock then it temporarily isn’t an SBR anymore and you can travel freely with it if it’s a spur of the moment trip. But the permission can last a year, so it’s not that big of a deal.

So yeah, SBR away.

I thought that's only kosher for something that started as a pistol. If it started as a rifle and then went SBR, then I thought that's not kosher to put a pistol brace on it and call it a pistol. It's still a rifle at that point, no?

 

[JRT]

Forgive my ignorance.
If i'm reading you correctly one could just put a brace on their SBR if leaving MA (without paperwork) and it's then considered a pistol?
I'm building one as truck gun but go to maine frequently to our camp.

Not if it started life as a rifle. If it started life as a Form 4 SBR or a pistol you can add a brace and its a pistol again. Likewise, if it started life as a rifle you can add a 16 inch upper and its a rifle not an SBR. If you want to avoid the 5320.20 both of these scenarios work. You can also just fill out the 5320.20 for one year at a time for your spot in Maine.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Your example is a bit extreme, four or six in ARs are toys and often unreliable even when they are piston guns. An AR with a 10.5 or 11 inch barrel drops between 300 and 400 FPS compared to 16, an 11 barrel which quite a lethal range.

True, I did say an aggressive example. But there seems to be a ton of people going that far down these days with AR's. So much so that you can find a million rifles like SA Saint in 5.5" from the factory. I'd personally not go below 10" unless I had a very good use reason.

 

[JRT]

True, I did say an aggressive example. But there seems to be a ton of people going that far down these days with AR's. So much so that you can find a million rifles like SA Saint in 5.5" from the factory. I'd personally not go below 10" unless I had a very good use reason.

I have a factory LWRC PDW SBR with an 8 inch barrel and its finicky with ammo and not 100% reliable. I will never understand the 4 inch AR guys, other than fun and LOUD toys.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

I have a factory LWRC PDW SBR with an 8 inch barrel and its finicky with ammo and not 100% reliable. I will never understand the 4 inch AR guys, other than fun and LOUD toys.

That could be a valid reason. Fun range toy. I'd never gun shame for that reason. I have an 8" AR9 SBR that is pretty much just for range fun. However, I do think a lot of those people going 6" and below with rifle caliber don't truly understand what they're giving up for that 4" barrel. Some do, but many probably don't. But again, if just for fun range toy or home PDW where top ballistic performance isn't required, then sure, I could see a point to them.

 

[Masswhole]

Not if it started life as a rifle. If it started life as a Form 4 SBR or a pistol you can add a brace and its a pistol again. Likewise, if it started life as a rifle you can add a 16 inch upper and its a rifle not an SBR. If you want to avoid the 5320.20 both of these scenarios work. You can also just fill out the 5320.20 for one year at a time for your spot in Maine.

Thanks.
It's starting from a stripped lower.

 

[PappyM3]

Not if it started life as a rifle. If it started life as a Form 4 SBR or a pistol you can add a brace and its a pistol again. Likewise, if it started life as a rifle you can add a 16 inch upper and its a rifle not an SBR. If you want to avoid the 5320.20 both of these scenarios work. You can also just fill out the 5320.20 for one year at a time for your spot in Maine.

Thank you for clarifying.

Thanks.
It's starting from a stripped lower.

Yes, sorry. Need to start as a pistol, then you can go to rifle or SBR and go back to pistol.

The key is that the ATF said that if a firearm is not in SBR configuration, then you don’t need to treat it as an SBR when traveling. Whether that be putting on a longer barrel or swapping a stock for a brace(as long as making it a pistol is legal as already discussed by JRT).

 

[PappyM3]

I thought that's only kosher for something that started as a pistol. If it started as a rifle and then went SBR, then I thought that's not kosher to put a pistol brace on it and call it a pistol. It's still a rifle at that point, no?

Yes, you need to start as a pistol in order to go back to pistol after being a rifle or SBR.

I was trying (not well) to highlight that if the gun is not in SBR configuration, then you do not need to treat it as an SBR when traveling. You still need to abide by other regulations about going from pistol-rifle-pistol.

 

[Atlantis]

Thank you for clarifying.


Yes, sorry. Need to start as a pistol, then you can go to rifle or SBR and go back to pistol.

The key is that the ATF said that if a firearm is not in SBR configuration, then you don’t need to treat it as an SBR when traveling. Whether that be putting on a longer barrel or swapping a stock for a brace(as long as making it a pistol is legal as already discussed by JRT).

Yes, you need to start as a pistol in order to go back to pistol after being a rifle or SBR.

I was trying (not well) to highlight that if the gun is not in SBR configuration, then you do not need to treat it as an SBR when traveling. You still need to abide by other regulations about going from pistol-rifle-pistol.

So to be clear, an "other" (stripped lower) becomes a rifle when built into an SBR? Hence can never become a pistol?

What if you build it into a pistol with a brace, and THEN you SBR it?

Or does the fact that it starts as an "other" ruin the whole thing?