Thoughts on SBR vs no SBR

[Atlantis]

We just going to pretend that 7.62x39 doesn't exist either?

 

[PappyM3]

We just going to pretend that 7.62x39 doesn't exist either?

That commie crap is for novelty fun at the range, not for real use.

 

[JRT]

We just going to pretend that 7.62x39 doesn't exist either?

It’s a pretty limited cartridge really.

 

[ScottS]

There’s a whole huge range of usability within the expansion/fragmentation threshold curves for short barrels. 300BLK is obvious, but even 5.56 as evidenced below. SOCOM has put an awful lot of bad dudes in the ground with 10.3” 5.56 using M855/M855A1/Mk262.
View attachment 377100

This. Once you rock a 10.3" AR for a while, a 16" M4 feels oddly ungainly, and a full-size A2 feels like you're holding a Swiss pike...with a bayonet at the end.

I feel like "Good enough for NSWC Crane (Mk18) and USSOCOM (Hk416), good enough for me."

 

[Mesatchornug]

That commie crap is for novelty fun at the range, not for real use.

Next up: chin-welds

 

[PappyM3]

I feel like "Good enough for NSWC Crane (Mk18) and USSOCOM (Hk416), good enough for me."

I mean, I should qualify it with the fact that SOF have other organic weapons with them to reach farther out if they need to. But yeah, shorties get the job done often, and especially for 99% of the defensive uses for a civilian shooting within 100 yards (even out to 300 if necessary).

 

[308rifleman]

The pipsqueak .22 LR probably planted

There’s a whole huge range of usability within the expansion/fragmentation threshold curves for short barrels. 300BLK is obvious, but even 5.56 as evidenced below. SOCOM has put an awful lot of bad dudes in the ground with 10.3” 5.56 using M855/M855A1/Mk262.
View attachment 377100

The pipsqueak .22LR likely exceeded SOCOM in filling cemeteries. We have two of them: semiauto and bolt action. Yes, they will kill. Not my first choice for serious defensive applications.

 

[seanc]

Not everyone has a cool $24K+ and the permissions to own the real pew pew pew.
They are working SA replicas and are what they are absent the rest of the vaporware

Besides "I am not gay..."

truth be told... mp40 shoots really slow. A modern semi with a practiced shooter can shoot faster rounds down range.
But as it is Really heavy it is very stable and relatively easy to keep rounds on target.

and... I will knock $9k right off the top!
but wait! There’s MORE!!!

 

[PappyM3]

The pipsqueak .22 LR probably planted

The pipsqueak .22LR likely exceeded SOCOM in filling cemeteries. We have two of them: semiauto and bolt action. Yes, they will kill. Not my first choice for serious defensive applications.

For all those bad guys you have to hit at 500 yards in a self defense situation?

 

[alan226]

What are peoples thoughts on SBR's. On some guns it makes them more usable. Say like the GSG MP40P. It 's useless in the pistol form but with a stock on it, it seems much easier to use. Or an Uzi, it usable in it's rifle form. With the short barrel on it it's got the original look to it and it's still usable. With SBR's there are the legal issues with them too. You can't just lend it to a friend, you have to ask permission to take it over state lines and there is the $200 tax stamp. Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on it. I have a few guns that I would like to SBR but trying to figure out if it is worth it or not.

Another possibility. Do what I did. Get a Tavor. An SBR without the SBR hassle. Legal to buy, transfer, lend. No permission needed for anything. No tax stamp. Want to sell it? Perfectly OK in Mass. Full capacity mags? No problem, Plenty of pre-bans available. IMO, the only drawback is the starting price. However, when you figure in no $200 tax stamp, that's it's a quality rifle, and no waiting period I think it's worth it.

YMMV....

 

[weekendracer]

True, I did say an aggressive example. But there seems to be a ton of people going that far down these days with AR's. So much so that you can find a million rifles like SA Saint in 5.5" from the factory. I'd personally not go below 10" unless I had a very good use reason.

In 300AAC, it's still got enough power for what I intend for the platform. I don't think I'll have many volunteers to test my theory.

 

[308rifleman]

For all those bad guys you have to hit at 500 yards in a self defense situation?

Murders. FBI statistics indicate that .22LR and 9mm are the two cartridges that kill the most people. Most murders take place within feet, not yards.

 

[PappyM3]

Murders. FBI statistics indicate that .22LR and 9mm are the two cartridges that kill the most people. Most murders take place within feet, not yards.

I think you missed my point. I’m saying you don’t need a long barreled rifle for defensive use, unless you’ve got bad guys to take down at 500 yards.

And I’m not even going to touch the ridiculousness of trying to throw in how 22lr has killed a bunch of people. ... okay.
Edit: I will touch it just a little: FBI doesn’t break down murder stats by caliber. So... where are your data?

 

[Varmint]

PPS43P, would be much better with stock on it than pistol form

WTF is that, I seem to remember that was a gun in the old Call of Duty 2, where you played the Russkies.

 

[308rifleman]

I think you missed my point. I’m saying you don’t need a long barreled rifle for defensive use, unless you’ve got bad guys to take down at 500 yards.

And I’m not even going to touch the ridiculousness of trying to throw in how 22lr has killed a bunch of people. ... okay.
Edit: I will touch it just a little: FBI doesn’t break down murder stats by caliber. So... where are your data?

M193 out of a full-length 20" barrel stops fragmenting at a bit less than 200 yards, as the velocity drops below 2,700 fps. With shorter barrels, reliable fragmentation range becomes even less. Small lightweight rounds tend to be more dependent on velocity for effectiveness than larger, heavier rounds. Simple physics.

 

[PappyM3]

M193 out of a full-length 20" barrel stops fragmenting at a bit less than 200 yards, as the velocity drops below 2,700 fps. With shorter barrels, reliable fragmentation range becomes even less. Small lightweight rounds tend to be more dependent on velocity for effectiveness than larger, heavier rounds. Simple physics.

Don’t use M193 for anything but practice/training. Even with a 20” barrel, its external and terminal ballistics aren’t great. FMJ rounds should only be relied on to tumble. But still, a rifle bullet doesn’t need to fragment as the size of the temporary stretch cavity causes permanent tearing of tissue.

As for velocity dependence relative to weight of the bullet, did you even see the charts I posted when I replied to your first comment? It’s not just terminal ballistics, but the higher weight bullets generally have a high BC and experience a slower rate of velocity loss over distance.

An outlier for terminal performance relative to weight though, is the 50gr TSX load from Black Hills. Great barrier blindness and expansion despite its light-for-caliber weight. So it’s not just weight, the M193 just isn’t that great.

 

[Hardwired]

WTF is that, I seem to remember that was a gun in the old Call of Duty 2, where you played the Russkies.

Polish copy of the Russian WW2 PPS43 but in semiauto form and pistol config. In 7.62x25 or 9mm. Big chunk of metal and Heavy as a tank lol.

Pioneer Arms Corp

Convert to working stock after tax stamp.

 

[drgrant]

So here is another question. If you where a 07FFL with a SOT and didn't have to pay the $200 tax on each SBR and didn't have to wait for premission to make them would that change your opinion on SBR's?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think it may be possible that 07 don't have to file 5320's, either? Have to dig into this more...

 

[kingson]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think it may be possible that 07 don't have to file 5320's, either? Have to dig into this more...

If you are a 07 with an SOT you can make the item then within 24 hours you have to file a form 2 to the ATF. No $200, photos or fingerprints

 

[drgrant]

If you are a 07 with an SOT you can make the item then within 24 hours you have to file a form 2 to the ATF. No $200, photos or fingerprints

I knew that part I just didn't know whether or not 5320 was required to move the gun between states (where legal) as an 07/SOT...

 

[kingson]

I knew that part I just didn't know whether or not 5320 was required to move the gun between states (where legal) as an 07/SOT...

Sorry, had a brain fart and forgot what that form was. If you have an SOT then there is no need for the form 5320. You can bring them between states with no permission

 

[wiryone1]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think it may be possible that 07 don't have to file 5320's, either? Have to dig into this more...

Sorry, had a brain fart and forgot what that form was. If you have an SOT then there is no need for the form 5320. You can bring them between states with no permission

So would an 07 SOT be able to take a registered SBR on their books into any other state and be exempt from state laws restricting “assault weapons” including normal capacity mags?

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

In 300AAC, it's still got enough power for what I intend for the platform. I don't think I'll have many volunteers to test my theory.

True, but 300aac was designed with subsonic close to mid range engagements as its specialty, so it isn't affected by barrel length as much as other intermediate cartridges. A 180 - 220 grain subsonic round is coming out so (relative) slow already from a 16" barrel that is barely drops 100fps or less if you half the barrel length and also maintains downrange energy very well. But it's unique in this design, and most other intermediate cartridges do benefit from barrel length, where halving a 16" barrel will drastically reduce performance on both fps and downrange energy.

 

[PappyM3]

True, but 300aac was designed with subsonic close to mid range engagements as its specialty, so it isn't affected by barrel length as much as other intermediate cartridges. A 180 - 220 grain subsonic round is coming out so (relative) slow already from a 16" barrel that is barely drops 100fps or less if you half the barrel length and also maintains downrange energy very well. But it's unique in this design, and most other intermediate cartridges do benefit from barrel length, where halving a 16" barrel will drastically reduce performance on both fps and downrange energy.

To be precise, the 300BLK was designed for combined sub/super use, so a warfighter could use subs inside a structure, and then switch to supers with just a mag change in the event they received contact outside the structure while infil-ing or exfil-ing. Basically replacing the MP5 inside a structure, but with carbine performance outside a structure.

And 300BLK with supers does see real benefit when increasing the barrel up to 16”. Just like 7.62x39. But you’re right that it doesn’t suffer from barrel reductions as much as smaller calibers. The larger diameter of the 30 cal bullet results in more air volume behind the bullet to help burn the powder.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

To be precise, the 300BLK was designed for combined sub/super use, so a warfighter could use subs inside a structure, and then switch to supers with just a mag change in the event they received contact outside the structure while infil-ing or exfil-ing. Basically replacing the MP5 inside a structure, but with carbine performance outside a structure.

And 300BLK with supers does see real benefit when increasing the barrel up to 16”. Just like 7.62x39. But you’re right that it doesn’t suffer from barrel reductions as much as smaller calibers. The larger diameter of the 30 cal bullet results in more air volume behind the bullet to help burn the powder.

I know that was the intent of design, but even at supersonic grains, 300aac has like double the bullet drop of 556 at 200+ yards, making it less than ideal for long range shooting. This puts it back in just the MP5 range category, so subs still make the most sense with this caliber (just my opinion).

 

[JRT]

To be precise, the 300BLK was designed for combined sub/super use, so a warfighter could use subs inside a structure, and then switch to supers with just a mag change in the event they received contact outside the structure while infil-ing or exfil-ing. Basically replacing the MP5 inside a structure, but with carbine performance outside a structure.

And 300BLK with supers does see real benefit when increasing the barrel up to 16”...

This is why 8.6 CM is so interesting to me. All of the benefits of 300 AAC and additional energy down range. I’m sitting here on a 7.62 receiver and a chassis waiting for the Interested parties to pick the right load and twist.

 

[PappyM3]

I know that was the intent of design, but even at supersonic grains, 300aac has like double the bullet drop of 556 at 200+ yards, making it less than ideal for long range shooting. This puts it back in just the MP5 range category, so subs still make the most sense with this caliber (just my opinion).

Yes, 300BLK supers aren’t as flat as a 5.56. However, even an 8” 300BLK can make POA/POI hits on chest out to 200 meters with supers. The same cannot be said for an MP5. And with terminal ballistics waaay better than 9mm.

300BLK supers out of a shorty also still have effective terminal performance out farther if you know your dope. And the SOF using the platforms would know their holds if absolutely necessary to use them. It is a niche tool. Most warfighters would be fine with a shorty 5.56 as a multi-purpose carbine. But some do need the sound or flash reduction afforded by 300BLK.

 

[PappyM3]

This is why 8.6 CM is so interesting to me. All of the benefits of 300 AAC and additional energy down range. I’m sitting here on a 7.62 receiver and a chassis waiting for the Interested parties to pick the right load and twist.

Currently thinking about SBRing my AR10 in anticipation of either 8.6CM or 375 Raptor in a 12.5” barrel. Still debating. Though, 300BLK does get you into some shorty-short light weight carbines, the new bigger bore options seem better for hunting.

375 Raptor seems to require less variation in twist when optimizing for subs vs supers, but I’m willing to bet that 8.6CM gets more industry backing.

 

[bfm]

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

Yes, 300BLK supers aren’t as flat as a 5.56. However, even an 8” 300BLK can make POA/POI hits on chest out to 200 meters with supers. The same cannot be said for an MP5. And with terminal ballistics waaay better than 9mm.

300BLK supers out of a shorty also still have effective terminal performance out farther if you know your dope. And the SOF using the platforms would know their holds if absolutely necessary to use them. It is a niche tool. Most warfighters would be fine with a shorty 5.56 as a multi-purpose carbine. But some do need the sound or flash reduction afforded by 300BLK.

Yes, that's one of the beauties of this cartridge. Downrange energy is sustained very well. Just that if I'm looking at this for a stand out attribute, it isn't range. It's getting effective subsonic stopping power in a package that, even with a can, is still SMG sized without drastically reducing ballistic performance. It can stretch out some distance if necessary, but that's not really where it shines.