Thoughts on SBR vs no SBR

[JRT]

Yes, you need to start as a pistol in order to go back to pistol after being a rifle or SBR.

I was trying (not well) to highlight that if the gun is not in SBR configuration, then you do not need to treat it as an SBR when traveling. You still need to abide by other regulations about going from pistol-rifle-pistol.

Can you imagine a scenario where the ATF is checking if your AR pistol started life at as a rifle where you're not jacked up for something far worse. When I was a kid I found an old Montgomery Ward side by side in the loft of our barn. I loved it because it was the one gun I could shoot whenever I wanted and I didn't have to clean it each time. I carried that thing everywhere and one day I thought it would be far cooler as a sawed off. I ran a trap line for a least one entire season in its shorty form and it was sitting in my trapping basket and my dad saw it and had a fit. He welded it shut and then cut it into pieces on the bandsaw and screamed at me I could go to prison lol. I wonder how many people unknowingly wanted a pistol AR and just added a brace to a rifle and bought a short upper, I bet its more than just a few.

 

[PappyM3]

... I wonder how many people unknowingly wanted a pistol AR and just added a brace to a rifle and bought a short upper, I bet its more than just a few.

Lots

So to be clear, an "other" (stripped lower) becomes a rifle when built into an SBR? Hence can never become a pistol?

What if you build it into a pistol with a brace, and THEN you SBR it?

Or does the fact that it starts as an "other" ruin the whole thing?

Build it into a pistol first, then SBR it. You don’t need a brace for it to be a pistol, but it wouldn’t hurt to have a brace on hand for impromptu traveling needs in the future.

 

[Atlantis]

Build it into a pistol first, then SBR it. You don’t need a brace for it to be a pistol, but it wouldn’t hurt to have a brace on hand for impromptu traveling needs in the future.

Is this just the honor code then? Or is the EFA/10 record of your "pistol" what would count? How does ATF know the route you took in a free state? Is it on Form 1 that you are converting from a pistol to an SBR? I guess I just don't see how you/they prove what the first step was after a stripped lower.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Mp40 without full auto makes it a "halbautomatische Pistole". For that thing, the same reasoning as for the MPX applies: submachine guns that aren't full auto are semi-sub-no-machine guns, and therefore gayer than fanny packs and appletini.

Whew. Glad I didn't do that then. I don't want to be gayer than an appletini. In fact, I've got that tattooed on my inner thigh. Just in case I forget.

 

[PappyM3]

Is this just the honor code then? Or is the EFA/10 record of your "pistol" what would count? How does ATF know the route you took in a free state? Is it on Form 1 that you are converting from a pistol to an SBR? I guess I just don't see how you/they prove what the first step was after a stripped lower.

Yes, it’s the honor system unless you bought a complete AR and it was transferred new to you by an FFL. Then there’s proof it was a rifle first. I suppose FA10ing a build as a rifle would also be damming.

If you build your own lower out and there is no federal or state paperwork saying it was a rifle, then there’s really no way for the ATF to prove it existed as a rifle before it was a pistol.

If you’re in MA though, then you have a whole other set of issues. An new AR pistol will have to abide by the AWB and need to be bolt action or fixed mag because it’s impossible to build a capable braced AR pistol in MA with a handguard. Both because of the handguard and also the weight.

 

[Atlantis]

Yes, it’s the honor system unless you bought a complete AR and it was transferred new to you by an FFL. Then there’s proof it was a rifle first. I suppose FA10ing a build as a rifle would also be damming.

If you build your own lower out and there is no federal or state paperwork saying it was a rifle, then there’s really no way for the ATF to prove it existed as a rifle before it was a pistol.

If you’re in MA though, then you have a whole other set of issues. An new AR pistol will have to abide by the AWB and need to be bolt action or fixed mag because it’s impossible to build a capable braced AR pistol in MA with a handguard. Both because of the handguard and also the weight.

But in theory, you can build yourself a fixed mag AR pistol, and then convert it into an SBR with a removable mag, and then when you travel to a free state, flip back to the brace to avoid interstate travel headaches.

 

[Knob Creek]

If you want short, go with a bull pup. Tavor x95 or Kel-Tec or something else.

 

[SgtHal75]

If you lived in MA I would say that the SBR allows you to get setups in MA you can't otherwise have. As you are in NH, why SBR what you can put a pistol brace on and call it a day? You have no restrictions on movement or loaning it to friends.

MA AR Pistols, AK pistols, MP5, Scorpion, etc are all assault weapons in pistol form. In NH, use them as pistols or put a pistol brace on them and call it good.

No forward grip now on AR pistols I believe now??...

 

[SgtHal75]

What are peoples thoughts on SBR's. On some guns it makes them more usable. Say like the GSG MP40P. It 's useless in the pistol form but with a stock on it, it seems much easier to use. Or an Uzi, it usable in it's rifle form. With the short barrel on it it's got the original look to it and it's still usable. With SBR's there are the legal issues with them too. You can't just lend it to a friend, you have to ask permission to take it over state lines and there is the $200 tax stamp. Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on it. I have a few guns that I would like to SBR but trying to figure out if it is worth it or not.

SBR everything

 

[SgtHal75]

Since braces are a thing, SBRs don't make much sense anymore. And since shouldering a brace is fine with the ATF, I don't see the point of the application/tax stam/wait time.

SBR everything because even the coolest brace is a little

plus the ATF changes the goal posts on pistols every day

 

[SgtHal75]

+1 You need a tax stamp, long wait for tax stamp, requires ATF permission to take out of state and nearly unsellable used since pistols are all the rage.

A pistol can be in the passenger compartment of your vehicle and you can take it anywhere pistols are legal.

No reason in the world to SBR anymore

Efile and you have your stamp in three weeks. SBR all the way

 

[Asaltweapon]

Why screw around with ATF and the changing goal lines? Do I have a AR Pistol? Yes I bought it as a toy. Do I own a brace for anything else? No, why bother when I have a SBR and yes moving it freely is a PITA.

In the truck I carry a Sig sidearm and we all know some horny new cop is not about to detain me because he freaked out over it unlike the chances with an AR and NFA. What is going to happen when the ATF bans braces like bump stocks? Will we blame Trump again?

 

[PappyM3]

But in theory, you can build yourself a fixed mag AR pistol, and then convert it into an SBR with a removable mag, and then when you travel to a free state, flip back to the brace to avoid interstate travel headaches.

Yes

 

[PappyM3]

No forward grip now on AR pistols I believe now??...

If the OAL is greater than 26”, you can still have a VFG without SBRing.

 

[Davidk]

So here is another question. If you where a 07FFL with a SOT and didn't have to pay the $200 tax on each SBR and didn't have to wait for premission to make them would that change your opinion on SBR's?

No, I am a FFL with a SOT and I wont ever SBR again

 

[wiryone1]

No forward grip now on AR pistols I believe now??...

No VFG. Hand stop or AFG are ok. Some would say it is a grey area, but technically, only a vertical is a no go going by the current ATF over analyzed letter of whim.

 

[wiryone1]

AFG on AR pistol

 

[Broc]

Go short AF or GTFO.

PS... is that the tip poking out?

 

[Asaltweapon]

Go short AF or GTFO.

PS... is that the tip poking out?

View attachment 376696

So the barrel is listed as none???

 

[seanc]

If you want an mp40.. just buy mine..

 

[JRT]

Go short AF or GTFO.

PS... is that the tip poking out?

View attachment 376696

This man has a huge penis. Wow.

 

[PappyM3]

No VFG. Hand stop or AFG are ok. Some would say it is a grey area, but technically, only a vertical is a no go going by the current ATF over analyzed letter of whim.

AFG on AR pistol

Yes, but if the overall length of the gun is greater than 26”, then a VFG makes it just a “firearm”, and not an AOW (Unless you’re caught trying to conceal it, then it is de facto AOW according to the ATF).

Measure from the end of the barrel threads to the back of the collapsed/folded brace, and don’t try to hide it in a trench coat. You’re good to go.

With a 10.3” barrel and brace no shorter than a CAR15 stock, then you’re good to go. Just can’t do a shorty PDW build. Any AR pistol with a barrel over 10.3” is going to just be a “firearm” when adding a VFG.

Measuring the Overall Length of a Pistol? ATF has Altered the Deal

Read: Measuring the Overall Length of a Pistol? ATF has Altered the Deal from Adam Kraut on July 5, 2019 for Recoil.

www.recoilweb.com

 

[Dennis in MA]

"This deal's getting worse all the time."

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I love my 10.5 SBR because I like an actual stock and a VFG.
If I were to add up all the money I have spent on guns, $200 is a nothing.
Plus I filed my paperwork a few months before Healeys edict and figured it would never get approved.
Then on January 20th 2017, the same day Donald Trump was sworn in as President, my stamp arrived.
That was the best day ever.

 

[Hardwired]

Mp40 without full auto makes it a "halbautomatische Pistole". For that thing, the same reasoning as for the MPX applies: submachine guns that aren't full auto are semi-sub-no-machine guns, and therefore gayer than fanny packs and appletini.

Not everyone has a cool $24K+ and the permissions to own the real pew pew pew.
They are working SA replicas and are what they are absent the rest of the vaporware

Besides "I am not gay..."

 

[Hardwired]

Wait. If I SBR'd one, I could have one of those 9mm MP40's in Mass?????

Where would one get a replacement folding stock?? IS THAT legal in mASS??? (Yeah, now we hit the "is an SBR a pre-ban argument" don't we?)

I don't think you can transfer as a pistol.
Stock kit and adapter to add a barrel extension or fake can. Tax stamp to ungay.
American Tactical Inc.

 

[308rifleman]

What are peoples thoughts on SBR's. On some guns it makes them more usable. Say like the GSG MP40P. It 's useless in the pistol form but with a stock on it, it seems much easier to use. Or an Uzi, it usable in it's rifle form. With the short barrel on it it's got the original look to it and it's still usable. With SBR's there are the legal issues with them too. You can't just lend it to a friend, you have to ask permission to take it over state lines and there is the $200 tax stamp. Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on it. I have a few guns that I would like to SBR but trying to figure out if it is worth it or not.

I prefer a full-length barrel for center fire rifles. As opposed to pistol and shotgun powders, rifle powders tend to be slower-burning and need barrel length to gain full velocity. Smaller calibers like the center fire .22s are very dependent upon velocity for fragmentation, which increases wounding effect. I have fired SBRs and magnum handguns with short barrels. They muzzle flash and blast are excessive. All that powder burning in the open air instead of in the barrel where it should be.

 

[amm5061]

I love my 10.5 SBR because I like an actual stock and a VFG.
If I were to add up all the money I have spent on guns, $200 is a nothing.
Plus I filed my paperwork a few months before Healeys edict and figured it would never get approved.
Then on January 20th 2017, the same day Donald Trump was sworn in as President, my stamp arrived.
That was the best day ever.

Big fan of my 10.5 as well. It's a ton of fun to play with, and good for home defense.

 

[Shark_Cage]

I got my tax stamp two weeks before THE 7/20. love my 10.5 uppers. Got one in 300BLK. Shoots like a dream. I have another in 458 Socom. I wanted to go shorter but was talked out of it by Tony at Tromix (great guy).

 

[PappyM3]

I prefer a full-length barrel for center fire rifles. As opposed to pistol and shotgun powders, rifle powders tend to be slower-burning and need barrel length to gain full velocity. Smaller calibers like the center fire .22s are very dependent upon velocity for fragmentation, which increases wounding effect. I have fired SBRs and magnum handguns with short barrels. They muzzle flash and blast are excessive. All that powder burning in the open air instead of in the barrel where it should be.

There’s a whole huge range of usability within the expansion/fragmentation threshold curves for short barrels. 300BLK is obvious, but even 5.56 as evidenced below. SOCOM has put an awful lot of bad dudes in the ground with 10.3” 5.56 using M855/M855A1/Mk262.