Safe in trunk

[Bugs100]

I'm thinking of putting a small safe in the trunk of my car. I was going to only use it for handguns back and forth to the range.

A lot of times I like to bring more than one with me to the range and a safe would allow me to stop at different places like stores and resturants knowing they were secure.

I don't think I would have to lag it down, the safe in it's own right should meet all laws if I disable the automatic trunk release in the passenger part of the car, using the valet switch.

Would I be complying with all laws in transporting firearms in this manner.

 

[Cross-X]

A safe may be lawfully used for firearms storage in a vehicle in Massachusetts so long as the guns are unloaded and the safe is properly locked.

There is no requirement that the safe be bolted to the vehicle's trunk.

 

[Pilgrim]

If you do 'lag it down', watch out for the gas tank!

 

[Bugs100]

I was also thnking that no one could make me open it with out a warrent. It's a real safe so I can't drill through it.

 

[TY43215]

http://www.truckvault.com/

 

[squeeze]

Is that true? A warrent is needed to open a safe which is in the trunk. I would like to know the answer to that.

 

[drgrant]

I was also thnking that no one could make me open it with out a warrent. It's a real safe so I can't drill through it.

Well, maybe you can't drill through it, but a locksmith certainly knows how
to.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Is that true? A warrent is needed to open a safe which is in the trunk. I would like to know the answer to that.

Well, theres this little thing called the 4th amendment. They'd
have to get consent to search (from the owner, assuming
the PD is non corrupt). If they're corrupt, or they get a court order/warrant,
they're just going to do whatever they want anyways, safe or no safe.
I believe theres also an end-around that lets them do whatever they want if
they have "reasonable suspicion" or something to that effect. Some of the
resident lawyers can clarify. It's very complicated WRT "Terry" stops and the like.

I don't really know if the safe changes anything. About the only thing
it might help with, is if the LEO is dirty, without you divulging the combination
he's likely going to have to get external assistance to open it, which means
that now, more people will become involved.

-Mike

 

[Bugs100]

The way I look at is a police officer has no reason to search my car, trunk or any thing else.

I don't drink, smoke pot, sell crack or do heroin. My car is brand new, inspected, registered, clean with no beer bottles rattling around or roaches in the ash tray.

I'm polite and respectfull and my license is valid. In short I'm a boring old guy. But I won't put up with any one violating my rights.

If some one wants to search my car their going to have to work for it.

 

[stinx]

I was also thnking that no one could make me open it with out a warrent. It's a real safe so I can't drill through it.

If the Police have probable cause to search your vehicle,then they can search the entire vehicle and all its contents. I believe its called the caroll doctrine /Mv exception. Provided the vehicle is on a public way.

 

[Bugs100]

The key phrase is, probable cause..

 

[Coyote33]

Is the presence of a safe "probable cause" that you might be hiding something?

 

[Bugs100]

If they can find probable cause to open the trunk that would mean they had probable cause to open the safe.

The key to it is they have to have probable cause to start a search and I'm not going to give it to them.

 

[Dave C]

I'm confused. Isn't it completely legal to store your gun as described in this thread? Being friends with several LEO's I guess I tend to think if he wants to check my trunk and my legal compliance why would I not show him?

Icould be missing something, but why would I be afraid to cooperate?

 

[MetalgodZ]

I'm confused. Isn't it completely legal to store your gun as described in this thread? Being friends with several LEO's I guess I tend to think if he wants to check my trunk and my legal compliance why would I not show him?

Icould be missing something, but why would I be afraid to cooperate?

Would you let a LEO search your house without reason? If so, you're (at least) naive. If not, why is your vehicle any different? You might not be afraid to cooperate, but you should still refuse a warrentless search for more than one reason.

The first is principal - the 4th Amendment acknowledges "[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects." Gaining back our 2nd Amendment rights in MA is difficult enough...voluntarily giving up another right isn't something you should do on a whim.

The second is protection for yourself and others in your vehicle. If a search performed after you've refused to consent to a voluntary search turns something up, it will be more difficult for them to use it against you in court, since the court will need to determine the applicability of probable cause based on the circumstances before determining whether or not the evidence is allowed in the case against you or your passengers.

The third is purely preventative. Your consent effectively allows them to search EVERYTHING, since disallowing the search of one or more locations would both raise suspicion and make the issue of probable cause less clear. Why invite the possibility of a charge, manufactured or real, against you?

As for the legality of the safe, I assume that it would fall under the same rules as a locked case. All guns would need to be unloaded and locked in the case (safe) to be legal, or under your direct control (on your person, not in a glovebox, under a seat, or in the case) if loaded. You'd obviously need the appropriate LTC class & restrictions to carry loaded.

 

[drgrant]

I'm confused. Isn't it completely legal to store your gun as described in this thread? Being friends with several LEO's I guess I tend to think if he wants to check my trunk and my legal compliance why would I not show him?

Icould be missing something, but why would I be afraid to cooperate?

Uhh, cause theres this little thing called the FOURTH AMENDMENT,
you know, that thing that is supposed to protect you from an
illegal search. IMO consenting to such a search, especially
when the LEO clearly has no probable cause or a warrant,
is basically throwing your rights out the window.

Would you approve of a program for police to randomly check
vehicles, simply because you "have nothing to hide" ?

-Mike

 

[M1911]

I'm confused. Isn't it completely legal to store your gun as described in this thread? Being friends with several LEO's I guess I tend to think if he wants to check my trunk and my legal compliance why would I not show him?

Icould be missing something, but why would I be afraid to cooperate?

If you don't stand up for your rights then you don't have any. There is no way I'm going to consent to a fishing expedition. I would never try to physically stop a police officer, but unless he's got a warrant I will not give verbal consent.

 

[Scrivener]

If you don't stand up for your rights then you don't have any. There is no way I'm going to consent to a fishing expedition. I would never try to physically stop a police officer, but unless he's got a warrant I will not give verbal consent.

And if your cell phone has a camera, you can document the warrantless search.

 

[M1911]

And if your cell phone has a camera, you can document the warrantless search.

A good suggestion. Provided I haven't already been cuffed and stuffed.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

And if your cell phone has a camera, you can document the warrantless search.

However, if you record the voice (in MA) which may be the only way to prove thee was no consent, you have committed a felony.

Also, better not hide the safe too well - in some states the mere presence of a hidden compartment in you car, even in the absence of contraband, is a criminal offense.

 

[Lugnut]

However, if you record the voice (in MA) which may be the only way to prove thee was no consent, you have committed a felony.

Why is this a felony? I've never heard of this before... recording the audio is illegal? Don't most cop cars record video and audio these days?

 

[M1911]

Lugnut: if it isn't disclosed it is considered wiretapping. I assume that there is an exemption for police audio recordings of car stops: http://www.citmedialaw.org/blog/2007/massachusetts-wiretapping-law-strikes-again

Commonwealth vs Hyde: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ma&vol=sjcslip/8429&invol=1

 

[abiffmaster]

Why is this a felony? I've never heard of this before... recording the audio is illegal? Don't most cop cars record video and audio these days?

Its illegal to record the audio of another party if you don't disclose that you are recording them.

 

[drgrant]

Its illegal to record the audio of another party if you don't disclose that you are recording them.

Is it DISCLOSURE or CONSENT? (or both). There's a big difference...
It's a lot easier to say "hey im recording you" than
it is to ask for permission to do so....

-Mike

 

[Cuda444]

Is it DISCLOSURE or CONSENT? (or both). There's a big difference...
It's a lot easier to say "hey im recording you" than
it is to ask for permission to do so....

-Mike

I'm no legal eagle, but I'm pretty sure it's knowledge AND consent to be legal while recording another party; maybe I'm wrong... it wouldn't be the first time

 

[Lugnut]

Lugnut: if it isn't disclosed it is considered wiretapping.
Commonwealth vs Hyde: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ma&vol=sjcslip/8429&invol=1

Wow.... I read most of this. I'm not so sure what I think of this finding (not that it matters). Interesting nonetheless.

 

[GLOCK.Perfection]

its legal to have your firearm in a locked trunk, you dont need a safe. there is the issue that if stolen, you could loose your ltc, but all i have read is that in your trunk is legal.... on that note, am i transporting legally if i have a long arm in a case (not locked) with trigger lock installed and gun unloadeD? and one more... if the gun is unloaded, but ammo is in the case with the gun, is that a problem?

 

[dixidawg]

its legal to have your firearm in a locked trunk, you dont need a safe. there is the issue that if stolen, you could loose your ltc, but all i have read is that in your trunk is legal.... on that note, am i transporting legally if i have a long arm in a case (not locked) with trigger lock installed and gun unloadeD? and one more... if the gun is unloaded, but ammo is in the case with the gun, is that a problem?

Is it "high capacity"?

 

[M1911]

on that note, am i transporting legally if i have a long arm in a case (not locked) with trigger lock installed and gun unloadeD?

In short, if it is a large capacity long gun, no you are not in accordance with the law unless it is in a locked trunk. If it is a non large capacity long gun, then yes you are in accordance with the law.

Take a close look at paragraphs b and c of mgl ch140 s131c:

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.

As you can see, your choices for a large capacity rifle or shotgun are a locked trunk, locked case, or "other secure container." It isn't clear to me what a "secure container" is, but a trigger lock is clearly neither a case nor a container.

Note that trigger locks are acceptable for storage under Ch140 s131L:

Section 131L. (a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device,

So the bottom line is that trigger locks are acceptable for storage of all guns, but not for transport of handguns or large capacity long guns. If your long guns are large capacity, then they must be transported in a locked trunk, locked case, or "other secure container." I doubt that an unlocked case and a trigger lock meet the definition of an "other secure container."

Note also that non-large capacity long guns do not need to be locked up while be transported in a vehicle. That said, I suspect many police officers are not aware of that fine point of the law, and if they saw a non-large capacity long gun in your car that is not locked in a case or trunk, they might wrongfully arrest you. You would likely win the ensuing legal fight but it would ruin your whole day.

So my recommendation is that you put all long guns (whether large or non-large capacity) in your trunk or a locked case.

and one more... if the gun is unloaded, but ammo is in the case with the gun, is that a problem?

I'm not aware of anything in Massachusetts law that prevents you from having ammunition in the case with the gun. But the gun itself must be unloaded.

Once again, please be aware that I am not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice. I'm sure that Cross-X, Scrivener, or other competent attorneys could give you better information than I.

 

[USMC109]

A lot of times I like to bring more than one with me to the range and a safe would allow me to stop at different places like stores and resturants knowing they were secure.

Until they steal your car.Unless the safe weighs a hell of a lot and is built with thick gauge steel almost all of those small "safes" can be broken into in less than 30 seconds by a pro.I doubt you want to have that much extra weight in your car as well.Even 90% of the safes made for vehicles can be breached with a simple prybar by a wannabe car thief.