Red dot on a carry pistol - worth it to mill a slide or nah?

[Boghog1]

The motion sensor will NOT reactivate the DeltaPoint Pro if it has been turned off manually.

 

[paul73]

I have two dozen RMR's

ok. you be you.
i cannot have two dozens of this shit and spend $12K on it, to be able to rotate it around.

 

[M1911]

OMG. are you trying to prove my point of what is not supposed to be on a carry gun?
just kidding.

Dude, just stop.

I haven’t seen a single post in this thread that recommends the DPP for concealed carry. I haven’t seen a single post in this thread that says all red dots are reliable. You want to bet your life on a Swampfox optic? Go right ahead, but I won’t. I have a DPP. I wouldn’t carry that either. In fact, I won’t use it for competition anymore either — the SRO is better and I won’t carry and SRO either.

What I wrote above is that the RMR is solid and I’ve had good look with Holosun.

Aaron Cowan’s report details red dot failure in police duty optics. Links to that report have been posted multiple times in this thread. Read it.

Scott Jedlinksi on optic selection:


View: https://youtu.be/dnn5vvNqX9Y


I also won’t carry a Taurus, but you do you.


View: https://youtu.be/2fn6GFSwTEw

 

[M1911]

The motion sensor will NOT reactivate the DeltaPoint Pro if it has been turned off manually.

Yeah, but reading the manual is too hard for him.

 

[paul73]

Yeah, but reading the manual is too hard for him.

"if it goes to sleep mode i need to turn it off and turn it on.". reading difficult much?

 

[Boghog1]

"if it goes to sleep mode i need to turn it off and turn it on.". reading difficult much?

Just making sure you were aware, the accelerometer could have failed in which case Leupold may fix it, not sure what the warranty is on them

 

[paul73]

I haven’t seen a single post in this thread that recommends the DPP for concealed carry.

but, but - if THE POLICE is using them they must be good then? ain`t was that one of your arguments?

Police Gun Sight?

screen grab from a police body camera. Anyone know about this type of sight? It has some sort of lens/viewer? Never seen this before.

www.northeastshooters.com

ok, i will stop. none of you seem to have enough of sense of humor anyway.

 

[Artifact]

Police, the pinnacle of shooting and the unchallenged authority in anything firearms related.

 

[eboos]

But how do you feel about vaccines?

 

[E.Stoner]

ok. you be you.
i cannot have two dozens of this shit and spend $12K on it, to be able to rotate it around.

No worries, I can and this has been my experience.

 

[paul73]

No worries, I can and this has been my experience.

i`m still worried, as it is sad to be poor. keeps you in a worried state.
so, the RMR has a 4% failure rate. need to make a note somewhere for that.

 

[M1911]

but, but - if THE POLICE is using them they must be good then? ain`t was that one of your arguments?

Police Gun Sight?

screen grab from a police body camera. Anyone know about this type of sight? It has some sort of lens/viewer? Never seen this before.

www.northeastshooters.com

ok, i will stop. none of you seem to have enough of sense of humor anyway.

I said some police use red dots. I didn't say all police departments that use red dots picked a good one. Read Aaron Cowan's report.

You want to play gotcha, I'll play gotcha all day long and twice on Sunday. Just kidding. Or not.

 

[E.Stoner]

i`m still worried, as it is sad to be poor. keeps you in a worried state.
so, the RMR has a 4% failure rate. need to make a note somewhere for that.

Thanks, very cool.

 

[paul73]

Thanks, very cool.

i`m trying, thank you.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

For those who talk about being fast, accurate, etc with a dot, that's cool. I agree with the folks here that if you aren't shooting all the time, you're likely just an average shooter. I don't have the time to shoot as much as I would like. That may change next year or once we move from MA, but for now that is reality. I also don't particularly like handguns as weapons. They are secondary... a means of fighting your way to your rifle. I spent very little time in the service with a handgun and the reality is they are ineffective in modern combat as anything other than a backup or for doing the silent nasty when suppressed, given the common usage of soft body armor and helmets defeating pistol rounds.

Yeah, yeah, we CCW with pistols. Sure, and that's why we should practice with them. I just don't forget that my handgun is secondary to my rifle when it comes to home defense. The reality is anyone could own soft armor today. Hell, I was looking at armor inserts for backpacks for my kids. That mall shooter is lucky the dude he shot wasn't wearing body armor else he would have been lit up by that dude's rifle.

Anyway, this thread was all over the place. To those posting against dots on handguns, I recommend you set one handgun up with it. Doesn't have to be your EDC. For those who say dots are the only way to go, I'd agree to a point. If you have an unlimited budget for this particular hobby or absolutely love pistol shooting or have eyes so bad you just can't see the damn front post anymore. For the rest of us with competing interests for our fun budget or aren't a boomer with bad eyes, I'd say nope.

Now for some gun porn:

If you are an average shooter and dont have time to practice, why wouldnt you practice with something that is easier to learn and more effective?

yes handguns are not the best tool for killing people, but for a ccw'er they are generally the best tool for killing people on hand.

That mall shooter is lucky the dude he shot wasn't wearing body armor else he would have been lit up by that dude's rifle.

More likely the active shooter would have laid down and emotionally died when he took rounds to his soft armor, but even if he hadnt, again, this is an argument FOR the dot, because it would be easier to make headshots.

As for price, yeah, sure, RDS arent cheap, but how many dudes in here bitching about price own 5 or more handguns they dont carry, but are complaining that they dont have money to outfit the gun they carry every day? Prioritize this shit however you guys like, but dont bullshit yourselves.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

There is only one way to settle this argument. IDPA competition with Team RDS vs Team Iron. The losers shall be converted.

lol, the reason they separate optics and irons classes is because dots are superior.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Considering adding a holo sight on my carry pistols and wonder if it's worth the trouble and cost to get the slide milled or to just go the cheaper route and get the rear sight adapter. How many of you find yourselves using the backup tall irons anyway? Figured at self defense distances, even with an electronic dot fail, you could eyeball the middle of the reticle and guesstimate your shots.

Having taken 3 different PMO instructor classes and trained a couple of hundred people to use a pistol mounted optic, I would recommend the suppressor height sights. and having the slide milled for the optic you have chosen.
Its defiantly worth having a PMO on your carry gun.
One other thing I would recommend is dry practice drawing the empty pistol about 500 times so that you can find the dot in the window every time, then tape the front of the window and do it 500 more times. Once your presentation is perfect you will have a lot less trouble live firing the dot.
Inside 10 yards, when the shot brakes and you see the hole appear in the paper right where the dot was, you will know you have a proper target focus and that all your other mechanics are correct.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

to keep thread to be at least partially useful - what is a consensus recommendation for a zeroing distance on carry PMOs?
25yds or 15? or 10? or 7?

I would recommend a 15 yard zero.
We started at 25 yards, but quickly found that most guys couldn't shot a tight enough group at that distance to get a confirmed zero, so we moved to 15 yards.
This was with the instructors shooting from a foam rest, sitting at a heavy picnic table. We had to zero a couple of hundred guns, so time was a factor.
We moved the table back to 25 yards at one point and rechecked a few of the guns by some of us who could shoot tight groups at that distance. None of the guns zeroed at 15 yards needed to be adjusted, so we did the rest at 15 yards.
At 15 yards we were shooting at 1 inch circles and some of us could get 3 rounds in the circle.
at 25 yards they were 2-3 inch 3 round groups.

 

[paul73]

I would recommend a 15 yard zero.

i had mine done at 10 initially, with an anticipation to have long zero close to a 50, but it gets it more off at 25. not a whole ton off, but, still.
thx for the response, it is what i wanted to know, what the actual consideration there is/was.
and, hmm, looks like 15 is actually very close to a long zero at 50, 10yds gives more like a 60. makes sense.

 

[M1911]

I zero mine while standing, unsupported. I put a few black pasters on a USPSA target. I start at 5 yards. Once on at that distance, I move back to around 10. Then I will move back to 25 yards and adjust as necessary. I need to check it at 50 - that I will do prone.

I won’t argue that my way is in any way “best”.

 

[Artifact]

I zero mine while standing, unsupported. I put a few black pasters on a USPSA target. I start at 5 yards. Once on at that distance, I move back to around 10. Then I will move back to 25 yards and adjust as necessary. I need to check it at 50 - that I will do prone.

I won’t argue that my way is in any way “best”.

I do something similar too

 

[Cap'n Mike]

i had mine done at 10 initially, with an anticipation to have long zero close to a 50, but it gets it more off at 25. not a whole ton off, but, still.
thx for the response, it is what i wanted to know, what the actual consideration there is/was.
and, hmm, looks like 15 is actually very close to a long zero at 50, 10yds gives more like a 60. makes sense.

Another factor was the guy whos gun it was was watching us zero over our shoulders, so being able to shoot a tight group at 15 yards went a long way in showing the guy how accurate his gun could be if he did his part and it also cut down on guys wanting to adjust their zero because of bad mechanics and bad fundamentals. We had almost none of those kind of requests.

 

[mav]

If you are an average shooter and dont have time to practice, why wouldnt you practice with something that is easier to learn and more effective?

yes handguns are not the best tool for killing people, but for a ccw'er they are generally the best tool for killing people on hand.



More likely the active shooter would have laid down and emotionally died when he took rounds to his soft armor, but even if he hadnt, again, this is an argument FOR the dot, because it would be easier to make headshots.

As for price, yeah, sure, RDS arent cheap, but how many dudes in here bitching about price own 5 or more handguns they dont carry, but are complaining that they dont have money to outfit the gun they carry every day? Prioritize this shit however you guys like, but dont bullshit yourselves.

We're on the same page, sort of. I recommend having at least one handgun set up with a dot for practice purposes. Then if and when circumstances require or just because, you can go that route with your EDC. What I'm not recommending is wholesale changing to run dots on every hand gun you own unless that's your thing.

Like I said, I'm still practicing with it. I'm still more comfortable shooting pistol without a dot, but time on the range (or dry fire) will eventually fix that. I don't and won't move everything over for the reasons I listed.

My argument in the case of the mall shooter was more to do with the fact that it was pistol vs. rifle and my view on pistols in general. Yes, only weapon the good guy had, but he got lucky no armor was involved. I agree a competent shooter trained with a dot should be more accurate, especially at distance, but lets not kid: anything a pistol can do at 50 yards a rifle or better yet an SBR can do better. Literally the only advantage a pistol holds is the ability to conceal before drawing and firing. Shorter sight radius, less muzzle velocity, smaller magazines, less stable shooting stance, etc. I guess what I'm saying is red dots don't overcome the limitations of handguns and like another poster said, they don't magically spread gun jiz over a shooter and make them better without a ton of practice. Use a CCW for what it is and be smart about when and how it's used.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I zero mine while standing, unsupported. I put a few black pasters on a USPSA target. I start at 5 yards. Once on at that distance, I move back to around 10. Then I will move back to 25 yards and adjust as necessary. I need to check it at 50 - that I will do prone.

I won’t argue that my way is in any way “best”.

For my own PMO guns, I have found I can pretty much put 10 rounds in the same hole at 7 yards standing unsupported, taking my time.
Thats where I confirm my stuff.
As I move further back I hold a bit high.

 

[Artifact]

It’s not about the homo rounds touching tips, it’s about how fast can you place the shots in proximity to eachother.

I see nerds at the range taking selfies with their targets after spending 10 min on one mag and still look like shit. 10 min is like an eternity for me.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

My argument in the case of the mall shooter was more to do with the fact that it was pistol vs. rifle and my view on pistols in general. Yes, only weapon the good guy had, but he got lucky no armor was involved. I agree a competent shooter trained with a dot should be more accurate, especially at distance, but lets not kid: anything a pistol can do at 50 yards a rifle or better yet an SBR can do better. Literally the only advantage a pistol holds is the ability to conceal before drawing and firing. Shorter sight radius, less muzzle velocity, smaller magazines, less stable shooting stance, etc. I guess what I'm saying is red dots don't overcome the limitations of handguns and like another poster said, they don't magically spread gun jiz over a shooter and make them better without a ton of practice. Use a CCW for what it is and be smart about when and how it's used.

Yeah im definitely not arguing that a pistol is a substitute for a ling gun, just that most of the time a pistol is all we've got. So i try to make my pistol as effective as possible.

Personally, im not worried about getting robbed at the gas station or whatever, i can probably handle that without a gun, and if i need a gun an rds wont inhibit me at all, but if i end up in a situation like that mall shooting i want the most effective tool available to me that i can.

You're absolutely correct about dots not bukkakke'ing skill all over a shooter, at the end of the day shooting is all about aiming the gun at the target and controlling recoil during operation, if you cant control the recoil its not gonna matter much, but dots will 100% help with the aiming part.

 

[Dench]

im not worried about getting robbed at the gas station or whatever, i can probably handle that without a gun

Not if Dench wants his way with you.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

On zeroing:

I do initial zero at 10.
Go to 25 and confirm and refine (mostly focusing on windage)
After thats done im usually good to 50.

If im feeling super analytical after that ill do a walkback in 10 yard increments to 100 yards holding the same point of aim on target and figure out my holds.

Im partial to the Trijicon RMR, i put 1 MOA dots on pretty much everything but im weird.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Not if Dench wants his way with you.

Bro idk if ive told you but i do ju jitsu and crossfit, and i listen to jocko bro im hard

 

[Dench]

Bro idk if ive told you but i do ju jitsu and crossfit, and i listen to jocko bro im hard

Crossfit is gay though.