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Piston Conversion

Billsail

Billsail

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Are there any gunsmiths or dealers that perform piston conversions on an AR? If so, what would be the approx. cost. Could any members share any experiences? I don't trust my fumbling, arthritic fingers anymore. In the past, I wouldn't hesitate tackling such a project, but age has now crept up on me. I know this is relatively new technology, well, I know it's not new, but the kits have become more widely available. Dealers or Smiths, feel free to PM me.

P.S. It's an M&P15T, with a quad rail and no muzzle brake. I want a top quality kit. That's just the way I am. [smile]

Thanks,

Bill
 
Brownells makes a kit that seems pretty straight forward to install. I don't know anyone that has done this but the video they have on the site makes it a no-brainer. The folks at AR15 are mixed (what did you expect?) on doing the conversion. There are some advantages to a gas piston conversion but I personally don't think it warrants the money given the way I shoot.

I believe the cost is $450

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=...15_M16_Gas_Piston_Conversion_Kit_Installation
 
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alphawolf said:
what is the advantage?
Click to expand...

I think it's more preference than an advantage. It's supposed to help put less fouling in the receiver and increase reliability but it's been discussed at length here that if you properly maintain your DI AR that it should be just as reliable as a piston driven AR.
 
Bill, I'd see if the cost of the kit and the labor would be worth it. You can get a nice Sig 556 Piston for about $1200. I don't know the prices a gunsmith would charge for that, but I know the work I've had done runs about $75 - $150/hr.
 
The issue you might have with the M&P15FT is fitting the gas system under the Troy quad rail. I have the same gun and looked into retrofitting a piston to it and my research indicated most of the piston systems would be hard to fit.

As for piston systems in general, the advantage is supposed to be that the bolt runs cooler and cleaner. I have an XCR and based on that, the advantages are real. I can't speak to how well the piston ARs work.

Hanwei has an LWRC upper that he seems to like. I shot it and it's indeed very nice. I haven't shot a POF but on paper, those seem very nice also.
 
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IMO converting a perfectly good working DI gas AR is fixing something that isn't broken. If the gun is that bad that you want to run out and buy a piston kit for it, something else is wrong.

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
IMO converting a perfectly good working DI gas AR is fixing something that isn't broken. If the gun is that bad that you want to run out and buy a piston kit for it, something else is wrong.

-Mike
Click to expand...

The obvious solution is to just buy a 416/556/XCR/etc. [smile]
 
Kalahari said:
The obvious solution is to just buy a 416/556/XCR/etc. [smile]
Click to expand...

Once again, I can only speak to the XCR but the gas piston isn't the only difference vs. an AR.

(If it's not obvious, I really like the XCR even if it's giving me some minor problems right now.)
 
PaulD said:
Once again, I can only speak to the XCR but the gas piston isn't the only difference vs. an AR.

(If it's not obvious, I really like the XCR even if it's giving me some minor problems right now.)
Click to expand...

From what I've read on other forums, you're not alone. Robinson Armament seems to have made a real quality product.
 
drgrant said:
IMO converting a perfectly good working DI gas AR is fixing something that isn't broken. If the gun is that bad that you want to run out and buy a piston kit for it, something else is wrong.

-Mike
Click to expand...

Mike, what is your opinion of the piston action ARs? Not talking conversion here...one that is already piston.
 
Kalahari said:
From what I've read on other forums, you're not alone. Robinson Armament seems to have made a real quality product.
Click to expand...

Quality seems great and it's a really nice design.

One of my issues is magazine related (it's more sensitive to old mags than my AR) and wouldn't be an issue at all if I didn't live in this friggin state. The other is it's beating the hell out of the brass and I think I know what that is.

(sorry for the threadjack)
 
PaulD said:
The issue you might have with the M&P15FT is fitting the gas system under the Troy quad rail. I have the same gun and looked into retrofitting a piston to it and my research indicated most of the piston systems would be hard to fit.
Click to expand...


I hate to clean my guns unless I have to, (I know...bad firearms hygene) but I start to get FTFs after 2-300 rounds. A little cleaning, and I'm good to go again. That's using "clean" ammo, like Lake City. I didn't realize that the piston may not fit under some rails. Apparently the barrel nut on free-float barrels poses a fit problem as well. I'm sure technology and innovation will eventually work around this obstacle, so I think I'll just wait.

Thanks All,

Bill
 
Billsail said:
I hate to clean my guns unless I have to, (I know...bad firearms hygene) but I start to get FTFs after 2-300 rounds. A little cleaning, and I'm good to go again. That's using "clean" ammo, like Lake City. I didn't realize that the piston may not fit under some rails. Apparently the barrel nut on free-float barrels poses a fit problem as well. I'm sure technology and innovation will eventually work around this obstacle, so I think I'll just wait.

Thanks All,

Bill
Click to expand...

That's similar to my M&P15. S&W builds them pretty tight it seems.
 
The AR platform is what it is and is very good for what it is.

I'm with the Drgrant; If you really want a piston buy another gun. If you're having problems, you may need something a lot cheaper and simpler than a piston to fix them.
 
Billsail said:
I hate to clean my guns unless I have to, (I know...bad firearms hygene) but I start to get FTFs after 2-300 rounds. A little cleaning, and I'm good to go again. That's using "clean" ammo, like Lake City. I didn't realize that the piston may not fit under some rails. Apparently the barrel nut on free-float barrels poses a fit problem as well. I'm sure technology and innovation will eventually work around this obstacle, so I think I'll just wait.

Thanks All,

Bill
Click to expand...

You have a problem if you can't go more than 300 rounds without FTF/FTE. Regardless of what you might have heard, ARs like to run WET with oil, not grease.

Oil the crap out of it and see if it runs.

The last time I took a two day carbine class, my AR (LMT upper, DPMS Lower, RRA trigger) ran perfectly with just an oiling at lunch break and a cleaning at the end of day 1. I shot a mixture of Wolf, Radway Green, and Prvi Partizan. The rifle was filthy by end of day 1, but it was still oiled and ran like a champ.
 
Jose said:
The rifle was filthy by end of day 1, but it was still oiled and ran like a champ.
Click to expand...
The finer point that drgrant missed was sloth on cleaning...

A fun afternoon can leave me with three filthy bolts and no will to clean them[laugh]

Thus far it has not driven me to buy a piston kit (or any failures), but it has made me think about it 4 hours into an evening cleaning session of the arsenal... [smile]
 
Jose said:
You have a problem if you can't go more than 300 rounds without FTF/FTE. Regardless of what you might have heard, ARs like to run WET with oil, not grease.

Oil the crap out of it and see if it runs.

The last time I took a two day carbine class, my AR (LMT upper, DPMS Lower, RRA trigger) ran perfectly with just an oiling at lunch break and a cleaning at the end of day 1. I shot a mixture of Wolf, Radway Green, and Prvi Partizan. The rifle was filthy by end of day 1, but it was still oiled and ran like a champ.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more... wetter the better. The AR's like lube. (Colt upper, Bushmaster lower)
 
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A properly built AR will not need a ton of maint.

I abuse the crap out of my colt and it never jams. One time I had 600+ rounds through it without cleaning, and not even a touch up of lube on it, no problem. Gun just didn't care. Only problems I ever had with the rifle were related to a garbage non-usgi magazine. I threw it downrange and shot it and that was the end of that problem. [laugh]

-Mike
 
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Bill, I'm not sure who, around here, can install the piston conversion kit for you. But it sounds like Remsport is an option as they've already offered their services [wink]

For the rest of you "don't fix what's not broke" guys... I just picture a bunch of old cranky men sitting around the porch smoking their pipes and cigars... watching 2010 Chevy Camaros and 2010 Dodge Challengers drive by and saying things like ":grumblegrumble:... my '58 Chevy is JUST fine for me... gets me from point A to point B... no need for all these new fangled electronics and fancy things like fuel injection... BAH... Yeah, I gotta do lots of work every weekend to keep her runnin... but she ain't failed me yet!" [rolleyes] [smile]

Converting your AR to piston (or getting a complete piston upper... or buying a complete piston AR) is NOT fixing what's not broke. It's simply called evolution of design. We as a species constantly strive to better our existence through technology, either by inventing completely new, better, technology... or in this case, by improving on current designs.

Yes, the DI AR works as designed. No one's disputing that. And if you are going to own a DI AR you accept that you will have to clean it every 500-1000 rounds IF you want it to stay reliable. And you HAVE to run it wet IF you want it to stay reliable. No big deal. Again, works as designed.

BUT..... these things that you HAVE to do in order to keep it reliable... are the limitations to the DI design.

Enter the piston design. A better design.

To keep a piston AR running reliably... you DON'T have to clean it every 500-1000 rounds... you DON'T have to run it wet (at least not for LWRC and POF piston uppers/rifles as their BCG's have a permanent self lubricating coating)... you actually don't have to do much of anything (on a regular basis) to keep it functioning reliably.

And when you do end up cleaning the piston AR... all you have to do is wipe the bolt and BCG down. There's no nasty carbon build-up on the bolt that takes 45 minutes to chisel off... or anywhere else in the action of the rifle really. Cleaning my piston AR is quite quick and pleasant compared to cleaning my DI AR (which by far takes the longest of any of my guns to clean).

Anyway... sorry for the huge ass post. I just don't understand why some of you refuse to accept the piston design when its advantages outweigh any advantage the DI system offers. I mean... CHOOSING to constantly clean and oil an AR that is designed to make itself dirty as balls... over another AR that stays clean and doesn't require such maintenance... is just plain stubbornness to me.

There's a reason why almost every other combat rifle out there uses a piston design.


EDIT to add: If those advantages I posted above aren't priorities for some... and you want to stick with the DI AR's... more power to ya. I'm in no way saying that the DI AR's suck and that everyone should have a piston AR. Not at all. I'm just saying that there's no reason to tell someone else NOT to get a piston AR if that is what they want [grin]
 
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You're talking about the carrier tilt issue that most piston AR manufacturers have now worked out?
 

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