Magpul on the Naughty List

[PaulD]

Everyone keeps saying that their LEO market profit share is much smaller than civilian. Do you guys have the numbers that support this? Or is it just one of those "hunches" that every internet expert has out there?

Another thing that bugs me about this thread are the people who are assuming that every red blooded gun owner hates the police. Well news flash dumb****s: not everyone is like you. Many, many gun owners blindly love, support, and prop up the law enforcement community. And by showing that they support our "uniformed men" stateside, they're giving them warm fuzzy feelings and thus generating brand equity.

You guys that "have seen the light"- the libertarian, authority hating minority of the public, make up their smallest share of customers.

Wake up and deal with reality, people.


now that I've gotten that off of my chest- I agree with your guys' sentiment: spend your dollars with whom you like. Political views, product quality, etc.

From S&W's annual report:

During fiscal 2012, 6.9% of our sales were to state and local law enforcement agencies and the federal
government, 4.0% to international, and the remaining 89.1% were through the highly regulated distribution
channel to domestic consumers. Our domestic sales are primarily made to distributors that sell to licensed dealers
that in turn sell to the end user. In some cases, we sell directly to large retailers and dealers.

Further, Wikipedia says there are 800k police officers in the US. So, no, I don't have hard profit numbers but those numbers should be close enough. The LE market is small compared to the consumer market.

I don't hate the police. To the contrary, and despite some glaring reports to the contrary, I think most individual officers are good people and on our side. Right here on NES is some good evidence of that.

However, wanting Magpul and similar companies to not sell to LE is really striking against the politicians. Every liberal politician who creates a gun control bill always puts in an exemption for LE. At the same time, they talk about how nobody needs these "military style" weapons. It's a tacit admission that we live in a police state. Some manufacturers get this. Some don't.

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

However, wanting Magpul and similar companies to not sell to LE is really striking against the politicians.

Politicians are stupid and blindly listen to the police. If the police tell them something is good or bad, they thing it came from Christ-risen-and-walking. It is actually pretty pathetic.

Every liberal politician who creates a gun control bill always puts in an exemption for LE.

Not in New York.....

At the same time, they talk about how nobody needs these "military style" weapons. It's a tacit admission that we live in a police state. Some manufacturers get this. Some don't.

The Colonel of the RISP said on a TV interview that civilians do not need these weapons (AR's). That's scary. A police state in deed. That's OK though. It's true, what I need are my M1A's. Much better weapon, IMHO, just costs a hell of a lot more. Although I'd also be happy with a FAL or an PTR/HK if it was what I had to work with. But the M1A is apparently off the radar for some strange reason. Must be all the wood in the stock.

 

[calsdad]

Yeah yeah, blah blah. Sure fine cops aren't 'fighting men' it was late when I posted that. They still need the item as well as we do. Yeah the PD are the 'arm' of the power, so what? There's lots of good cops that aren't jbt's and use discretion that I would hope had the right tools. What do you want them to show up with at the next active shooter, a double barreled shotgun?

So, now apparently no one wants magpul selling to the sheriffs or leos that have gone on record that they won't enforce new gun laws? The guys that would likely look the other way in re:to what you personally own? The guys that would appreciate our help if shtf. These are individual sales not dept orders.

This community is far to hair across the ass reactionary. Keep eating our own, you're doing exactly what the proggies want.

EDIT: Magpul has been doing this for years anyways. Where was the outrage then?

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

Then they can resort to having to do all the same bullshit that "civilians" have to resort to - to get what they need.

A good part of the reason why so many cops have a bad attitude towards civilians and think they are superior to the rest of us - is because they get treated that way.

Having to have a friend in a non-ban state get the equipment that you need to get your job done - would go a long way towards correcting a few attitudinal problems.

If the civilians don't need 30 round mags - then why do the cops need them?

It's already a well documented fact that shootings of innocent civilians are more likely to happen at the end of a gun held by a police officer - than by an armed civilian.

So it would seem to me that making sure that cops don't have high cap mags they can use to shoot up more dogs and innocent civilians - would be a safety issue too - MORESO for the cops - than the civilians.

The problem is pretty simple - there's a whole bunch of people civilian and LEO alike - who simply think they are above all this shit. The FUDD's don't give a crap about the black rifle crowd - and the LEO's don't give a crap about "civilians".

Unfortunately one of the most effective tactics to get more support for a certain viewpoint is just drag more people into the shit along with you. Once people feel the cold hard threat breathing down their neck - they tend to wake up. So if we want to keep our gun rights - unfortunately we're going to have to play hard ball and make everybody else feel the pain too. If you're not willing to do that - then quite frankly you're just being stupid IMHO.

You can cry morals and all that BS all you want - it's not going to win the war for you long term.

 

[Jenny]

Sounds like this was a pre-existing program - one that in normal times would be comparatively non-controversial - that got dragged out into the light at the most inopportune time.


I still want an explanation, and my continued patronage of their company DOES depend on their future behavior. If there's an ongoing pattern of "some animals are more equal than others" I'm done. But they've built up too much good cred I think to immediately dump them to the naughty list without waiting for more data. No sense killing our own side for the bad guys.


Also, here's hoping that if we can't defeat a magazine ban, someone "accidentally leaks" the CAD files for the PMAG to DefDist.


edit -

A good part of the reason why so many cops have a bad attitude towards civilians and think they are superior to the rest of us - is because they get treated that way.

Ayup.

 

[ochmude]

Sounds like this was a pre-existing program - one that in normal times would be comparatively non-controversial - that got dragged out into the light at the most inopportune time.

I still want an explanation, and my continued patronage of their company DOES depend on their future behavior. If there's an ongoing pattern of "some animals are more equal than others" I'm done.
But they've built up too much good cred to immediately dump them from the nice list. No sense killing our own side for the bad guys.

Also, here's hoping that if we can't defeat a magazine ban, someone "accidentally leaks" the CAD files for the PMAG to DefDist.

No, it was not a pre-existing program. I will see if I can find a cached copy of the page on Magpul's site (which they changed in the past 48 hours) that plainly states that this program is a response to the current magazine shortages at retailers nationwide.

Blame Forum Runner for any typos and such.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

So am I a rat for having magpul shit all over my rifles?

 

[calsdad]

Everyone keeps saying that their LEO market profit share is much smaller than civilian. Do you guys have the numbers that support this? Or is it just one of those "hunches" that every internet expert has out there?

Another thing that bugs me about this thread are the people who are assuming that every red blooded gun owner hates the police. Well news flash dumb****s: not everyone is like you. Many, many gun owners blindly love, support, and prop up the law enforcement community. And by showing that they support our "uniformed men" stateside, they're giving them warm fuzzy feelings and thus generating brand equity.

You guys that "have seen the light"- the libertarian, authority hating minority of the public, make up their smallest share of customers.

Wake up and deal with reality, people.


now that I've gotten that off of my chest- I agree with your guys' sentiment: spend your dollars with whom you like. Political views, product quality, etc.

I've seen the numbers thrown around in multiple places - that the LEO market - for most companies - is a much smaller piece of their business than the civilian market. From one of the boycott threads I remember somebody posting info about Glock: where they said that the LEO market was a loss leader for them - as a way to sell into the civilian market and make all the profits.

If you don't believe this - do the math. How many people are employed as LEO's in this country - and now often do they get a new gun? I don't know of any police departments that buy their officers more than one gun - and they don't replace them every year.

Now look at civilians. How many pistols do you have in your safe? I know I've got at least a dozen. And I will buy more if I feel like it. I bet most police officers don't use up a dozen pistols in their entire career. They might go thru half that.

How many civilian gun owners are there in this country? Latest figures I remember seeing was in the 85 million range If even only a quarter of those own a pistol - I bet that absolutely dwarfs the LEO market.

I remember reading somewhere recently that the ammo manufacturing capability of the US ammo industry - was a BILLION ROUNDS A WEEK. All the stories over the last year or so have been talking about DHS stockpiling a few billion rounds of ammo. If the numbers are true - then what DHS is buying is just a pisshole in the snow compared to what civilians are buying.

I don't think this has anything to do with hating the police. This has to do with the government - and it's employees thinking they are better than "us". That is actualy the exact opposite of the way things were supposed to be in this country. It's supposed to be a country for the people and by the people - what that means in reality is that cops are supposed to be OUR EMPLOYEES. As are the politicians. When they start getting out of line - then they need to have the leash yanked. HARD.

If you are unwilling to yank the leash - they are going to keep mis-behaving.

- - - Updated - - -

Having been in Law Enforcement and having been a Firearms Trainer (for at one time) 125+ person agency. I can tell you, very few if any cops will buy equipment to enhance thier ability to do thier job. Most of these a**h***s won't even buy a reliable compact flashlight out of thier own pocket. So the gear bought by the agencies will be enough to equip everyone with base line and about ten percent in supply as replacement when needed. So in all reality Non-LE people buy more gear and multiples of gear. The average cop will have 1 Handgun and the three mags that go with it. Now think, How many handguns do you "own" and how many mags for each one, and how much support equipment on top of that.

Thanks for that. That's exactly what I suspected.

 

[PaulD]

Politicians are stupid and blindly listen to the police. If the police tell them something is good or bad, they thing it came from Christ-risen-and-walking. It is actually pretty pathetic.



Not in New York.....



The Colonel of the RISP said on a TV interview that civilians do not need these weapons (AR's). That's scary. A police state in deed. That's OK though. It's true, what I need are my M1A's. Much better weapon, IMHO, just costs a hell of a lot more. Although I'd also be happy with a FAL or an PTR/HK if it was what I had to work with. But the M1A is apparently off the radar for some strange reason. Must be all the wood in the stock.

Not in NY, yet. I believe Cuomo said he wants that added.

And you're right, the politicians do listen to the chiefs and the chiefs are political. I'm not convinced the rest are.

Regardless, I see no reason the police should have "military style" weapons when we can't.

 

[beaker]

I never said people should still buy from them even if they are upset, or that it was good that they didn't impose the LEO ban in ban states. I wish they would. But it is their choice not ours. I thought part of Liberty was making your own choices and living with them.

Why should Magpul care about the 2A fight in MA? We are currently in a small, stupid minority of states.

CO has banned the products they make and so far as I know, not given any exemption to them. That means that producing and handling those products in CO is a felony for everyone at the company. They don't have a choice but to move.

That said, on the surface, selling mags to LE in ban states is very disappointing.

Further, not buying from a company because you don't like their business practices is perfectly consistent with a free market. I also guarantee Magpul hasn't done more for 2A rights in the state of MA than I have.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[PaulD]

I never said people should still buy from them even if they are upset, or that it was good that they didn't impose the LEO ban in ban states. I wish they would. But it is their choice not ours. I thought part of Liberty was making your own choices and living with them.

Why should Magpul care about the 2A fight in MA? We are currently in a small, stupid minority of states.





Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

You need to read my post again.

I didn't say it isn't Magpul's choice. I said that individual consumers shouldn't buy from Magpul if they disagree with how Magpul runs the business.

 

[Dream to Dream]

For the life of me, I can't figure out why a company that currently has the civilian AR accessory market in its back pocket would ever put out a program like this at this time. Magpul is the most popular aftermarket accessory manufacturer out there right now. Pissing off your bread and butter is never a smart move.

So am I a rat for having magpul shit all over my rifles?

No, just a sell-out and co-conspirator. It's not quite as bad.

 

[Projectile]

When the backlash gets big enough and they start seeing declining sales as customers give them the big F U, they will quickly reverse this asinine decision.

 

[LittleCalm]

If you already have Magpul stuff, it is what it is. It's more about what you'll do going forward now that they are on record as selling to LEOs of banned states. They are free to do what they want just as we are free to make decisions with our wallet.

 

[ANACONDA]

Done, Magpul off of my list forever

 

[Jenny]

No, it was not a pre-existing program. I will see if I can find a cached copy of the page on Magpul's site (which they changed in the past 48 hours) that plainly states that this program is a response to the current magazine shortages at retailers nationwide.

.. then I stand corrected. I'd like to see the screencap, thank you.

hrm.

 

[LR308_GNR]

If Magpul is watching this thread (I know they do on arfcom)... you will not get another penny from me until you stand 100% behind us. Many of us now feel that voting with our money is the only option we have left to slow things down.

It pains me to not buy anymore of your product, but the line in the sand must be drawn somewhere... pick a f'ing side!

 

[LR308_GNR]

I'm willing to allow them one proper flip, but if they flop after that I will rule them out forever as a bunch of waffling donkeys.

God knows I've made poor choices in my life and have learned the error, never to be repeated again... I'll give them the same chance.

 

[RadiCS]

Good job Magpul! I'm sure you will get a lot of business when we end up like Europe...

 

[Steelhorse]

If you don't believe this - do the math. How many people are employed as LEO's in this country - and now often do they get a new gun? I don't know of any police departments that buy their officers more than one gun - and they don't replace them every year.

Now look at civilians. How many pistols do you have in your safe? I know I've got at least a dozen. And I will buy more if I feel like it. I bet most police officers don't use up a dozen pistols in their entire career. They might go thru half that.

I can assure you you're waaay higher in turn-around estimation than you think. In my six years of employment I have had one handgun...and that wasn't new when I got it. I believe it was purchased by the dept back in 2001 and, unless they follow suit with other depts recently and upgrade from .40 to .45...I don't see us getting a new armory or pistols anytime soon. And for reference, before the Glocks were purchased in 01ish, they all had S&W 4006s and those were the only pistols had since they retired the revolvers in '90...and to my knowledge most of the revolvers had been maintained since some time in the early 70s before they built the existing PD HQ in 78 (I think).

I don't think this has anything to do with hating the police. This has to do with the government - and it's employees thinking they are better than "us". That is actualy the exact opposite of the way things were supposed to be in this country. It's supposed to be a country for the people and by the people - what that means in reality is that cops are supposed to be OUR EMPLOYEES. As are the politicians. When they start getting out of line - then they need to have the leash yanked. HARD.

If you are unwilling to yank the leash - they are going to keep mis-behaving.

I see where you're going with this...and I can understand and appreciate it, but here's the issue with the country today.

I am employed by a city which gets it's funding from both the local budget which is based primarily on property taxes and the state budget which is funded primarily by income taxes as well as federal monies also from income taxes.
So if you either A. work for a living and/or B. own property or C. are retired/disabled having previously contributed to the system then yes, I work for about $2 per working-aged resident in my city (not saying they all work). The problem is almost half of our country doesn't contribute to the system and there's a high number of aide recipients that have NEVER contributed to the system sucking the life out of the financial wallet of our states, cities and towns. Money that could be appropriated elsewhere...and I'm not implying in my pocket, although I HAVE gone four years without a raise and watched my health insurance premium rise exponentially from a city who's mayor publicly totes it as being well off and having over $15M in reserves and growing.

My point is this: YOU don't have to worry about the majority of police officers. Yes, most of us are disgruntled to an extent but who isn't at their job? I have plenty of friends in the private sector that loathe their jobs. Off the top of my head I can only think of maybe two people that actually skip into work. I'm not crying about my job mind you...unlike many beside me I knew full well what I was getting into having grown up with other friend's fathers as police officers. They never sugar-coated it and I benefit from that. YOU are not the one's we abhor. The problem today is the growing number of calls to service or for these teat-suckers that I know you despise as well. Criminal element aside, I respond to more bullshit 'disturbances' to local motels/hotels that have become "shelters" for the homeless and domestic abuse "victims" where all they do is bitch about what the other is doing next door. And I say "victims" because these women are supposed to be there as a refuge from the male party that assaulted them and are required to not have any males present yet the baby-daddy that just smacked the shit out of them last week is now living with them for free on OUR dime. And when I report this to the appropriate authorities involved with the program, I get told that they can't just show up and spot check to find a violation (which would disqualify them and get booted out) because now they change their physical addresses to the hotel which now constitutes as their RESIDENCE which means the program and/or the hotel has to go through housing court to evict them. And they replicate like rabbits teaching the baby rabbits how to abuse the system as they get older...perpetuating the cycle and increasing the amount of draw on our civil finances. I have had many of these third class citizens tell me that I work for them to which I reply, "I don't work for you...I work for those who put money in your entitlement check. The same that bought your big screen TV, your free phone, your xBox, your food and your free healthcare."

It took a shootout with an felon armed and a stolen AR and two stolen handguns to get ARs in our cruisers...and then it was still pulling teeth. I have had to draw down on home invaders and armed robbers that had in their possession homemade SBSs and SBRs more times in the past than I would like to count when I would have loved to have a rifle at my disposal...and sadly our policy states then as it does now that I cannot provide my own for duty. So yes, our hands are tied in the fight against criminals...not law-abiding people.

I don't disagree with drawing a line in the sand....but why can't the line be shipping to all states equally. As a business owner take yourself out of the political equation and ship to every state leaving legalities to the end user. There are a plethora of pre AND post ban 30 rnd mags in the state...and if they're metal only and even the trained eye can't tell the difference if certain components are changed. The law puts the burden of proof on the state, but you have to suffer confiscation and arrest as such. These are laws that we need to change as a people with our votes for our elected officials...a mere '**** you' to the industry does nothing. The majority of these companies shipping hundreds of thousands of these magazines overseas and reap the benefits. They'll stay in business, and with us changing who represents us...so will we.

I understand that effort and the symbolism, but restricting sales to police departments means nothing...that majority of them have the equipment already and won't be buying large quantities if the don't, because Shaniqua, Maria, and Bobbi-Jo are spending the money for us all.

 

[ochmude]

.. then I stand corrected. I'd like to see the screencap, thank you.

hrm.

Not sure if this will link properly. Someone please let me know if you are able to view the cached page please. It should have this text:

PMAG MAGAZINES – Mil/LE Purchase
During this period of high demand, we at Magpul are taking steps to ensure that Military and Law Enforcement professionals that use our products in their job-related activities can still obtain the magazines they need for on-duty use. To meet this need, we have added this special category who's products are only visible to logged-in MIL and LEO customers once we have verified your active duty status.

This is a one-time offer, and purchases are limited to ten (10) magazines. Please allow up to ten business days to ship plus transit time.

We thank you for your patience, and look forward to doing additional business with you in the future.

The Magpul Team

PMAG MAGAZINES ? Mil/LE Purchase

If the link worked properly, that is what the page looked like as recently as two days ago when I posted about this program in the boycott thread (link). Sometime in the past 48 hours or so, Magpul has changed that particular page to make it much less clear what the program is actually about. This is what the page looks like now. Strikes me as a bit shady. The program still is in effect, though. I confirmed that via my .gov email address about 3 hours ago. It works out to $13.45/magazine plus about $12 shipping if you get the maximum of 10 magazines.

 

[Jsfitzgerald85]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, im building an Magpul AR, now what am i suppose to do? Now i have to scope out other products.

 

[atilla]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, im building an Magpul AR, now what am i suppose to do?

troy? yhm? dd?

 

[Jsfitzgerald85]

troy? yhm? dd?

i have looked at YHM and going with them for the gas block, but i just love the look of the Magpul products.

 

[calsdad]

For the life of me, I can't figure out why a company that currently has the civilian AR accessory market in its back pocket would ever put out a program like this at this time. Magpul is the most popular aftermarket accessory manufacturer out there right now. Pissing off your bread and butter is never a smart move.



No, just a sell-out and co-conspirator. It's not quite as bad.

I think there's big difference between having Magpul stuff on your rifle that you bought BEFORE - and Magpul stuff you buy AFTER - all of this assault weapon stuff has gone down - and after the idea that if we're going to get restricted - the police should too .... has been proposed.

"Things" were different before. Now we have actual legislation proposed - and actual legislation passed - and actual police officers out there saying things like "civilians don't need these weapons".

Life is different now.

That means your actions should be different. If you want to leave the previously purchased Magpul stuff on your rifle - that's your business. If you want to take it off and burn it - again, your business. But further contributing money to a company that is going to continue to support LEO's - SOME of whom have come right out and said they are against you - is a completely different story. You ARE helping to screw all of us if you think that you can simply continue business as usual and have it all just go away.

 

[Steelhorse]

troy? yhm? dd?

Troy - who decided to stop distributing their mags to retailers who were selling them at a normal price ($15) so that they can rape people by only buying them through their e-store at $25/ea?

They've been pissing me off lately, too.

 

[atilla]

that settles it then, we all can't buy from anyone at any time now, ever again.

aren't we all a bit too quick to crucify manufacturers and distributors? i mean cheaper than dirt has always sucked and it was obvious, but some of these other guys are just rolling around DERPing on the floor.

 

[Steelhorse]

I agree...the business model is to make the most money and to capitalize on every opportunity to make more at the risk of slitting your own throat...but c'mon! When things are this obvious and manufacturers are starting to rape and pillage, there's a problem and someone else needs to rise to needs of the many. Troy is in no way hurting...they've been expanding exponentially within the last year and they recently just doubled their mag production capabilities...it can't cost more than $6 to make one of these mags IMO given materials, electricity and the few employees they need to oversee the operation. I have no problem paying an extra ten for one. I know prob half of that goes to the retailer and the other goes to Troy to pay for the machine cost. But to give an extra $10 directly to the manufacturer cutting out the little guy's pockets and fluffing their own? That ain't right.

 

[atilla]

I agree...the business model is to make the most money and to capitalize on every opportunity to make more at the risk of slitting your own throat...but c'mon! When things are this obvious and manufacturers are starting to rape and pillage, there's a problem and someone else needs to rise to needs of the many. Troy is in no way hurting...they've been expanding exponentially within the last year and they recently just doubled their mag production capabilities...it can't cost more than $6 to make one of these mags IMO given materials, electricity and the few employees they need to oversee the operation. I have no problem paying an extra ten for one. I know prob half of that goes to the retailer and the other goes to Troy to pay for the machine cost. But to give an extra $20 directly to the manufacturer cutting out the little guy's pockets and fluffing their own? That ain't right.

there ought to be a law.

 

[Steelhorse]

haha...i don't think we need more of those!

 

[WallHack]

Do they offer a LEO discount? What I can't understand is: why would you fast-track discounted mags to LEOs when MILLIONS of people want them at full-retail (or more?)


Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk