Yikes. Somehow I think pain compliance techniques are not gonna work on a guy like that...
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LEO lessons learned?
- Thread starter Will Brink
- Start date
DickWanner
Banned
When he recovered his gun he should have attempted to a slap-rack-bang, unless his gun had an mag-disconnect safety and he lost his mag during the scuffle. Not saying I could have done better, but just something to thing about for future training.
Yup, I thought the same thing. He also should have had a backup gun and drawn that.
But it is easy for me to say from behind my keyboard. I'm not a cop and would never try to subdue someone the size of that perp.
Unfortunately you can't pick and chose who you get involved with on the street. Size isn't always a factor. I've dealt with skinny little twerps that were high and acted like they were three hundred pounds. I've dealt with 170 pounders that were outstanding boxers. Just the luck of the drawer.
Chris
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If you put your hand over the muzzle of most semi-auto pistols and push, it will go out of battery and not fire. You then wrap your hands around the barrel and twist. The natural reaction from the person wielding the pistol is to push back. The proper reaction is to back off.
There are two motions I know that can take such an attack and turn it into a takedown with the gun never in jeopardy. However, it assumes a standing position. I'd not want to be in a position of wrestling on the ground.
In any case, having the assailant close enough to touch the gun is a bad thing.
Her post event evaluation of once shooting - keep shooting is the best lesson of all.
Sad that Chicago doesn't train better, but I suspect that most departments do not train all that heavily in tactics and retention.
Marksmanship is the art of shooting.
Tactics is the art of fighting.
Two completely different skills and generally have little to do with each other.
Civilian tactics are also grounded on a much different level than police. Police have the unfortunate position of having to capture criminals. Civilians simply need to survive.
One other point she made. Once you decide to fight, never give up. The moment you hesitate, the fight is over. I have seen several examples of people fighting well under duress and how utterly helpless they become once they leave the fight.
I like the point she made about "twisting his balls". So many women think "I'll just kick him in the nuts and that'll do the trick". While this might render the suburban dad playing with his son helpless, the hardened criminal/gang banger/crackhead/etc. will just get pissed off.
Everything said about "performing like you train" is spot on. I know a guy who
If you are fighting for your life, forget about the 'rules' and fight dirty. Keep fighting - don't stop. Sure, the courts might find your actions excessive, but excessive is still better than dead.
There are two motions I know that can take such an attack and turn it into a takedown with the gun never in jeopardy. However, it assumes a standing position. I'd not want to be in a position of wrestling on the ground.
In any case, having the assailant close enough to touch the gun is a bad thing.
Her post event evaluation of once shooting - keep shooting is the best lesson of all.
Sad that Chicago doesn't train better, but I suspect that most departments do not train all that heavily in tactics and retention.
Marksmanship is the art of shooting.
Tactics is the art of fighting.
Two completely different skills and generally have little to do with each other.
Civilian tactics are also grounded on a much different level than police. Police have the unfortunate position of having to capture criminals. Civilians simply need to survive.
One other point she made. Once you decide to fight, never give up. The moment you hesitate, the fight is over. I have seen several examples of people fighting well under duress and how utterly helpless they become once they leave the fight.
I like the point she made about "twisting his balls". So many women think "I'll just kick him in the nuts and that'll do the trick". While this might render the suburban dad playing with his son helpless, the hardened criminal/gang banger/crackhead/etc. will just get pissed off.
Everything said about "performing like you train" is spot on. I know a guy who
If you are fighting for your life, forget about the 'rules' and fight dirty. Keep fighting - don't stop. Sure, the courts might find your actions excessive, but excessive is still better than dead.
OK, she was carrying in a level two holster with a snap? Most if not all of the Level 2 holsters I've seen that use a snap aren't very good, just my .02
I agree with both you and NWanner on this one...try to clear the malfunction and shoot, or when he's got some space use a BUG to blast the guy.
And if you have the option, don't pull someone out of a car who's that much bigger without some backup. If you have the option, that is.
I agree with both you and NWanner on this one...try to clear the malfunction and shoot, or when he's got some space use a BUG to blast the guy.
And if you have the option, don't pull someone out of a car who's that much bigger without some backup. If you have the option, that is.
I don't know if I would exactly use that vid as an example of good shot placement per se, but a great example of the fact that handgun rnds are not nearly as effective as people think, and depending on the person, can be literally shrugged off, as this guy did and many others have. In some people, until blood loss gets critical or CNS is hit, they don't stop fighting.
It's why multiple rinds are always recommended and "keep shooting until threat stops" vs "shoot and see what happens" is advised.
Officer decided to frisk for weapons, before putting on cuffs. Is that SOP in most depts? I wouldn't think it was not. Not trying to go armchair hero here and hindsight is 20/20, but as a 5'7? officer (and that's my hight), would waiting for back up before yanking a large male out of a car make the most sense here there?
The problem seems, 99% of the time people act the same way with LEO, and LEO must start to simply expect that. The problem is, that 1% who is not playing by the rule book, takes the LEO totally by surprise. No doubt, LEOs expectations and perhaps over estimating their abilities can lead to the above vid, or worse.
I'm sure these vids are great learning tools for LEOs. I remember vividly the vid fo the TX trooper who was tackled by BGs, and killed with his own gun, and it made me ill every time I saw it and my blood boil.
![[frown]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/003.gif "Frown [frown]")
I greatly appreciate the job the men and women of the thin blue line do, and want to see as few of those vids as possible.
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Under a huge amount of adrenaline dump, BP through the roof, running backwards, getting punched in the face, etc, etc, if it's not ingrained in your head as a reflex vs a thought, it's not gonna happen, which why training, but constant repetition of that training is essential for him to have cleared that gun under that level of pressure. I'm glad it turned out OK for the LE, but what a crappy experience for the poor man!
That's not always possible. In an urban/suburban department, sure. Out in a rural area, however, you might be the only officer on duty.
A long time ago, I had an accident in Wise County, VA, a good 5 miles outside of the city limits of Pound, VA. Pound had all of 900 people, and I'd guess their department had no more than a couple police officers total. Even though it was outside of his jurisdiction, the one officer on duty in Pound responded, because the one trooper on duty was at least 30 minutes away.
Makes sense. What of frisking for weapons minus cuffs? Do you not go for control first, then searching weapons, especially being alone?
Dunno. I'm not a cop.
I do know from brief training in handcuffing at LFI-2 that handcuffing a compliant person is not that easy. Handcuffing a non-compliant person by yourself is almost impossible unless you have a huge size and strength advantage.
No doubt about that. There appeared a small window where he was being compliant, but regardless, he didn't try and went straight to frisking anyway. Not being critical of the LE, just wondering out loud if that was SOP, a judgment call on his part, etc.
It is my understanding that a lot of people are compliant until you try to put handcuffs on them. If you get one handcuff on and not the other, then you've just given the perp a pretty good impact weapon.
Obviously, she made a mistake in only firing one round initially. And got a little overconfident when the guy was on the ground. Other than that, I see a series of lessons learned in a tough, life or death fight, that this officer will now be able to teach to new recruits and maybe when they find themselves in this situation they won't get complacent like she did initially.
First of all is amazes me she survived the encounter......but what is more amazing is that all she described and it all occured in only a minute 45 seconds. And if he got her gun during the intial struggle how quickly she would have been dead...probably in less than a minute.....
Good for her and her back-up!!!!! One less idiot in the street.
Good for her and her back-up!!!!! One less idiot in the street.
It all comes down to this, train the way you fight, because you will fight the way you train.... caliber doesnt mean shit if you cant hit the side of a barn standing in it... its all about shot placement.... she stopped shooting after a shot to the hand.... should of put a couple in his chest.... the sig 9mm she had great shot placement with, thats why she went with it....
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
105 seconds is a *long* time. I learned a new perspective of time at my first IDPA match. On a stage of ten rounds, I felt like I took my time and still shot it in 17 seconds. The fastest guy shot it in just under 6.
I was told once or twice, if you are going to do it like you mean it, do it mean.... same here as train like you fight, because you will fight like you train... real life scenarios are incredible teaching aids..... through in some dummy rounds, and you got your-self a party....
Folks. I have been in communication with Officer
Milovich regaring her experience, and “lessons learned” since that time. She was gracious enough to write up her current thoughts on it. My ongoing conversation with Officer Milovich has shown me she is a first rate cop, and a hell of a nice person, so please make any responses respectful and thoughtful.
She gave me permission to post these responses/thoughts below, but feels more comfortable having me post them. Let it be known she is busy teaching others not to end up in the same situation she found herself, and has turned the experience into a potentially life saving lesson she teaches to other LEOs. My respect for Officer
Milovich has only grown.
I suspect she may respond to some of the questions and comments from this, but I can’t guarantee it. My impression is she just wanted to clear the air and clarify.
From Officer Candy Milovich:
Let me address some of the more common themes I noticed questioned.
#1 - my weapon. Being hired in 1994 for CPD safetys on our weapons are prohibited. The bastard held the top of the gun (whilst I held the grips & pulling the trigger) causing slidelock.
#2 - my partner. Ah, this is the tough one. (name removed by WB) & I had worked together for some time & confident in each others skills. Complacent is probably the best term here. Should I have waited for back-up? Absolutely. Did I allow myself to be put in this situation? Absolutely. Luckily enough for me I lived to tell the story. As I said in the article, I had never encountered a situation I couldn't control. This isn't 'ego' but me having been extremely fortunate to have been taught by some outstanding officers throughout my career.
This was not my 1st 'shoot/don't shoot' experience. It was my 1st (and hopefully ONLY) shooting. You can ask 100 officers what (name removed by WB) 'should' have done and get 100 different answers. I have NEVER blamed (name removed by WB) for not following me. He obviously had his hands full. He still has his issues with this night, mostly he feels he abandoned me. Which, of course he did not.
#3 - radio - When I 1st gave chase I did get on the air & give my location. During the scuffle with the ****bird my mic popped off the strap on my shoulder. (I had always worn my vest under my shirt as I thought it looked more professional - I have now switched to wearing my vest outside so in the event of another scuffle even if it pops off it will still be near enough for me to call for backup) I was a bit pre-occupied and couldn't exactly call for a time-out to grab the dangling cord.
#4- new weapon. My husband is a Sgt for CPD. He was a sniper on our now defunct HBT team. Having spent so much time shooting he knew all the range instructors very well. My knee-jerk reaction is I wanted a more powerful gun. At that time I was thinking an AK-47 would be great Obviously, not doable. He contacted them and officers from CPD and suburban depts brought in every approved weapon for me to shoot before deciding on a new weapon. Right or wrong, I ultimately went with another 9mm. My thought process (please, correct me if I'm wrong) was/is that I need to be comfortable with the weapon and need to be able to properly control it. Otherwise it's useless to me.
Secondary weapon. I still think that, for myself, it's not the right thing to do. As described, I'm not a large person. 506/150 - Maybe the description of the encounter didn't accurately depict the 'close encounter'. This guy was literally on top of me, often we were nose to nose, I could smell this breath. When I kicked, I often found myself fighting to pull my foot back as he would grab my boot to try to pin me. Had I been carrying a weapon on my ankle he would have gotten it (the only place I could carry and not walk around lookin like Annie Oakley) - no doubt in my mind. Then it would have been a matter of who would have shot 1st.
#5 - timeline. This event from me 1st calling it in to my backup arriving was 2 minutes and 40 seconds as I recall. I still have a copy of the 911 recording. Granted, at the time it seemed like hours not minutes - the entire thing start to finish was very quick.
I beat myself up over this event daily, yes - even nearly 4 years later. As ashamed as I was/am of the horrific mistakes I made I felt it was important for other officers to read/hear it & hopefully learn thru my experience and not make the same errors. I replay the events in my head and KNOW I ****ed up (sorry for the language, it's the only way to describe it) This whole thing has changed me in a lot of not so positive ways, I deal with it as best I can.
The wrongful death lawsuit (50 million) was dismissed by a judge as the family couldn't retain a lawyer who could fight it in court. They hired PI's to investigate, had gone thru 3 attorneys before finally dropping the case. I received many calls from my departments command staff following the incident. Despite my discussions with them regarding training procedures, nothing has changed. As I'm sure you teach - 'you play like you train'. The Academy can talk til they're blue in the face 2 & 1. The fact is they don't train that way. Limited range training has them focusing more of passing the State Qualification, not survival. Obviously range safety is important, but what they say and what they do are 2 different things. What the range teaches isn't their fault. They are mandated to run the range as the Command Staff dictates. We (CPD) only are required to shoot annually to qualify. Period. Shooting on your own time at 1 of our ranges is a joke. Understaffed, most aren't open unless they are doing qualifications.
My responses that night in addition to trying to control were also my playing the Use Of Force model in my head. My thought process was to my knowledge, prior to him trying to disarm me, was he wasn't armed. As true as the saying is 'I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6' is - the truth of the mater at that time was concern for my being held liable after the fact. Our city is not a police friendly one. I have a family & a home to consider. Hindsight is 20/20 - I was 110% justified in any actions I took. At the time though, I had a balancing act to consider.
As much as this story is about 'lessons learned' it's also a story of the will to live. Not giving up. The odds were against me. A felon, with nothing to lose v/s me. I made some HUGE errors. My will to live/survive outweighed his determination to take my life. I truly believe that while officers do need to have confidence & skill with their weapons it CAN'T be the only 'tool in their belt'. Being able to handle hand-to-hand combats is equally important, if not more so in most cases, as the likelihood of physical encounters are more common than shooting ones. I hope I worded that correctly. I know what I mean, I'm not always sure I convey it right.
At this time I still contend with demons from that night. He, ultimately did take a part of me. It angers & hurts me to say & admit, but it's true. I have changed because of it. I still do work the same beat car and the same watch (3-11). (name removed by WB) is now working tact. I declined going back with him as I have been there/done that, and really had no interest in going back. I still lock up bad guys, I don't shy from confrontations. I have 2 great partners who do know of the event, we've discussed at length. Both are males, who act like brothers. 1 threatens to put a leash on me, the other to put a bell on me. I still find that this 'job' for the most part, is fun... As my sergeant from that night says - we (the police) are a special kinda stupid. We run towards what normal people run from.
Ok - I'm rambling & babbling now. Time to sign off. Thank you for responding. I was concerned you would take my message as an attack and would either ignore me or blast me. I appreciate your taking the time to answer.
Have a peaceful day.
Candy
Milovich regaring her experience, and “lessons learned” since that time. She was gracious enough to write up her current thoughts on it. My ongoing conversation with Officer Milovich has shown me she is a first rate cop, and a hell of a nice person, so please make any responses respectful and thoughtful.
She gave me permission to post these responses/thoughts below, but feels more comfortable having me post them. Let it be known she is busy teaching others not to end up in the same situation she found herself, and has turned the experience into a potentially life saving lesson she teaches to other LEOs. My respect for Officer
Milovich has only grown.
I suspect she may respond to some of the questions and comments from this, but I can’t guarantee it. My impression is she just wanted to clear the air and clarify.
From Officer Candy Milovich:
Let me address some of the more common themes I noticed questioned.
#1 - my weapon. Being hired in 1994 for CPD safetys on our weapons are prohibited. The bastard held the top of the gun (whilst I held the grips & pulling the trigger) causing slidelock.
#2 - my partner. Ah, this is the tough one. (name removed by WB) & I had worked together for some time & confident in each others skills. Complacent is probably the best term here. Should I have waited for back-up? Absolutely. Did I allow myself to be put in this situation? Absolutely. Luckily enough for me I lived to tell the story. As I said in the article, I had never encountered a situation I couldn't control. This isn't 'ego' but me having been extremely fortunate to have been taught by some outstanding officers throughout my career.
This was not my 1st 'shoot/don't shoot' experience. It was my 1st (and hopefully ONLY) shooting. You can ask 100 officers what (name removed by WB) 'should' have done and get 100 different answers. I have NEVER blamed (name removed by WB) for not following me. He obviously had his hands full. He still has his issues with this night, mostly he feels he abandoned me. Which, of course he did not.
#3 - radio - When I 1st gave chase I did get on the air & give my location. During the scuffle with the ****bird my mic popped off the strap on my shoulder. (I had always worn my vest under my shirt as I thought it looked more professional - I have now switched to wearing my vest outside so in the event of another scuffle even if it pops off it will still be near enough for me to call for backup) I was a bit pre-occupied and couldn't exactly call for a time-out to grab the dangling cord.
#4- new weapon. My husband is a Sgt for CPD. He was a sniper on our now defunct HBT team. Having spent so much time shooting he knew all the range instructors very well. My knee-jerk reaction is I wanted a more powerful gun. At that time I was thinking an AK-47 would be great Obviously, not doable. He contacted them and officers from CPD and suburban depts brought in every approved weapon for me to shoot before deciding on a new weapon. Right or wrong, I ultimately went with another 9mm. My thought process (please, correct me if I'm wrong) was/is that I need to be comfortable with the weapon and need to be able to properly control it. Otherwise it's useless to me.
Secondary weapon. I still think that, for myself, it's not the right thing to do. As described, I'm not a large person. 506/150 - Maybe the description of the encounter didn't accurately depict the 'close encounter'. This guy was literally on top of me, often we were nose to nose, I could smell this breath. When I kicked, I often found myself fighting to pull my foot back as he would grab my boot to try to pin me. Had I been carrying a weapon on my ankle he would have gotten it (the only place I could carry and not walk around lookin like Annie Oakley) - no doubt in my mind. Then it would have been a matter of who would have shot 1st.
#5 - timeline. This event from me 1st calling it in to my backup arriving was 2 minutes and 40 seconds as I recall. I still have a copy of the 911 recording. Granted, at the time it seemed like hours not minutes - the entire thing start to finish was very quick.
I beat myself up over this event daily, yes - even nearly 4 years later. As ashamed as I was/am of the horrific mistakes I made I felt it was important for other officers to read/hear it & hopefully learn thru my experience and not make the same errors. I replay the events in my head and KNOW I ****ed up (sorry for the language, it's the only way to describe it) This whole thing has changed me in a lot of not so positive ways, I deal with it as best I can.
The wrongful death lawsuit (50 million) was dismissed by a judge as the family couldn't retain a lawyer who could fight it in court. They hired PI's to investigate, had gone thru 3 attorneys before finally dropping the case. I received many calls from my departments command staff following the incident. Despite my discussions with them regarding training procedures, nothing has changed. As I'm sure you teach - 'you play like you train'. The Academy can talk til they're blue in the face 2 & 1. The fact is they don't train that way. Limited range training has them focusing more of passing the State Qualification, not survival. Obviously range safety is important, but what they say and what they do are 2 different things. What the range teaches isn't their fault. They are mandated to run the range as the Command Staff dictates. We (CPD) only are required to shoot annually to qualify. Period. Shooting on your own time at 1 of our ranges is a joke. Understaffed, most aren't open unless they are doing qualifications.
My responses that night in addition to trying to control were also my playing the Use Of Force model in my head. My thought process was to my knowledge, prior to him trying to disarm me, was he wasn't armed. As true as the saying is 'I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6' is - the truth of the mater at that time was concern for my being held liable after the fact. Our city is not a police friendly one. I have a family & a home to consider. Hindsight is 20/20 - I was 110% justified in any actions I took. At the time though, I had a balancing act to consider.
As much as this story is about 'lessons learned' it's also a story of the will to live. Not giving up. The odds were against me. A felon, with nothing to lose v/s me. I made some HUGE errors. My will to live/survive outweighed his determination to take my life. I truly believe that while officers do need to have confidence & skill with their weapons it CAN'T be the only 'tool in their belt'. Being able to handle hand-to-hand combats is equally important, if not more so in most cases, as the likelihood of physical encounters are more common than shooting ones. I hope I worded that correctly. I know what I mean, I'm not always sure I convey it right.
At this time I still contend with demons from that night. He, ultimately did take a part of me. It angers & hurts me to say & admit, but it's true. I have changed because of it. I still do work the same beat car and the same watch (3-11). (name removed by WB) is now working tact. I declined going back with him as I have been there/done that, and really had no interest in going back. I still lock up bad guys, I don't shy from confrontations. I have 2 great partners who do know of the event, we've discussed at length. Both are males, who act like brothers. 1 threatens to put a leash on me, the other to put a bell on me. I still find that this 'job' for the most part, is fun... As my sergeant from that night says - we (the police) are a special kinda stupid. We run towards what normal people run from.
Ok - I'm rambling & babbling now. Time to sign off. Thank you for responding. I was concerned you would take my message as an attack and would either ignore me or blast me. I appreciate your taking the time to answer.
Have a peaceful day.
Candy
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Off. Candy is very lucky to come out on top of this horrible situation.If you are a cop long enough,you will do great things,and you will do things that you wish you could do over.Unless you have ever been in a fight for life,you should never second guess one who has.I have been in them and I was lucky to survive physically.Off. Candy being a woman was either real lucky to survive this or was very cool and skilled or a combination of the two.I am happy for her and I wish her luck in the future,and I hope she reaches retirement age like myself.
