chris_1001
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Leader of Outlaws Motorcycle Club gang indicted on federal firearm charge
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Coda
NES Member
I understand your reasoning and totally respect your opinion, it's not for everybody.
Coda
NES Member
I was going to stick up for them one more time but no need to, you pretty much nailed it..........
They certainly don’t need anyone to stick up for them, I understand your meaning tho.
I think just like us as gun owners/hobbyists, those who aren’t familiar with it are made to fear it by the way the MSM and .gov portray us. Same idea, different hobby/lifestyle.
Coda
NES Member
Exactly, well put once again.......
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I'm.
Some are old dudes and have long since chilled. They leave the fisticuffs to the young bucks. One of the Warlocks, a full-patch member, actually held the door for my wife and I as we walked out of a bar on Toulouse Street in New Orleans.
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Someone can walk around in public wearing my gun club's logo or even flashing a fake membership card with no concern whatsoever that a club member will beat them up if they see it. Can the same be said of motorcycle clubs?
Courtesy knows no bounds.
Somebody going around telling the world that they are somebody that they aren't is bound to get into trouble sooner or later.
Fixxah
NES Member
Damn, you are one ugly dude.
J/K. You got way more hair than me. Probably more teeth too.
Not sure if serious, but this POV assumes that most cops, especially ones off duty, are running around trying to
narc on people, etc. Do you seriously think that every off duty LEO is going to give a shit about malum prohibitum crap, especially off duty? (oh and more than likely out of jurisdiction, too, a lot of the time)
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Yeah that's a good yarn, there. IMHO unless some extremely violent felony or an armed robbery is happening, most of them are going to mind their own business beyond their circle of concern. -Mike
I have no problem with adult men getting punched in the face for pretending to be something they’re not and getting caught. They’ve shown their true character and are lacking.
Myself and a few buddies I can think of in the past have handed out beatings and thrown guys head first out the doors on a few occasions for posing as Rangers and/or wearing awards they didn’t earn. I’m sure the SEAL’s, SF, Marines etc etc have also done the same thing with some of their posers.
Does that make them all bad or are they just serious men that don’t stand for idiots like a lot of society does today?
There’s always an apologist. “ADIOS” mean anything to you?
In 2010 Brockton’s Timothy Dasilvia plead guilty and was sentenced to 21 years in federal prison. not for being misunderstood, but for “conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute more than five kilograms of cocaine.”
More Brockton Outlaws were arrested, not for being loyal and faithful men, but attempted murder of a similarly loyal, faithful and misunderstood young man with three different patches on his back. And others for being racist AF.
“The indictment states that in October 2009, Rosga allegedly directed members of the Outlaws to retaliate against the Hells Angels for their attack on two Outlaws members, which resulted in the alleged attempted murder of a Hells Angels member in Canaan, Maine. The victim was seriously injured from gunshot wounds. Following Outlaw tradition, the two Outlaw members who carried out the attack allegedly received new patches indicating they had performed a violent act on behalf of the Outlaws.
In November 2008, Outlaws members are charged in the indictment of assaulting a black male at the Hard Times Café in Fredericksburg, Virginia for no other reason but his race, and then intimidating witnesses and instructing fellow Outlaws members to lie to obstruct law enforcement’s investigation of the assault.”
If being “lame” means making a living without distributing drugs, trying to kill other motorcyclists for riding in “your” territory, being racist, or treating women as chattel, count me in for lame.
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MaverickNH
NES Member
Biker Gang Leader's DIY Guns Are Part of a Predictable Prohibition Story
From Australia to Massachusetts, illegal gun makers step in to supply what legal markets aren’t allowed to produce.
reason.com
Maybe this thread was about "ghost guns" rather than about the relative virtuosity of Biker Clubs, or about how even felons have 2ndA rights when they have paid their fine, done time in jail/probation - dunno. But it would be about the militias forming across the US if the Democrats and progressives get their way in 2020. The Sons of Liberty had a rather sullied reputation amongst the Loyalists in the 1760s forward - maybe gaining the hue of "fringe" groups like Bike Clubs? Not a great parallel but others seem to worship Bikers as the Last Free Men, so the thought isn't completely wrong to compare them to a club of the First Free Men.
NYT, WaPo and the top media outlets have been a bit more muted on the newly forming militia story than expected - some element of liberal framing is taking place. More emphasis on the guns - the "ghost guns" - rather than on criminals and criminal use of guns. Militias are more linked to racism in past stories but that's not being driven in the Virgina situation. Even the progressive news takes pause in name-calling and vote-losing pre-2020 elections.
When did making a "ghost gun" become an alternative to acquiring guns "on the street" amongst those prohibited from selling and buying guns? Has the risk gone up or did good-old American ingenuity just kick in? Criminal are regular guys too and making gun is guy-stuff. Combined with a motivation (avoiding law enforcement), a great hobby (gun-stuff) and a need for self-defense and defense of property I can see where "ghost guns" have an appeal. Self-defense may be avoidance of successful retribution attacks from other groups and defense from theft may be guarding "fundraising property" (drugs, smuggled goods, etc.) but it's still a "need" addressed by guns on a global basis. Those New Zealand gang leaders indicated they didn't plan to turn in their guns but *do* take precautions not to let violence spill over beyond gang-to-gang into public life.
If "clubs" are dealing drugs, murdering, etc., are there no laws under which to arrest, indict and convict? Certainly so, but that requires evidence, witnesses, a unanimous jury verdict... Felons with guns is a simple fact to prove, and so *much* easier to convict on than squishy stuff like violent crime.
That's what alarms me about this case. Going after guns is not going after malum in se *evil* crime.
From Australia to Massachusetts, illegal gun makers step in to supply what legal markets aren’t allowed to produce.
Biker Gang Leader's DIY Guns Are Part of a Predictable Prohibition Story
As a convicted felon, Bruce Sartwell isn't legally allowed to own firearms. But the regional president of the Outlaws Motorcycle…
reason.com
Maybe this thread was about "ghost guns" rather than about the relative virtuosity of Biker Clubs, or about how even felons have 2ndA rights when they have paid their fine, done time in jail/probation - dunno. But it would be about the militias forming across the US if the Democrats and progressives get their way in 2020. The Sons of Liberty had a rather sullied reputation amongst the Loyalists in the 1760s forward - maybe gaining the hue of "fringe" groups like Bike Clubs? Not a great parallel but others seem to worship Bikers as the Last Free Men, so the thought isn't completely wrong to compare them to a club of the First Free Men.
NYT, WaPo and the top media outlets have been a bit more muted on the newly forming militia story than expected - some element of liberal framing is taking place. More emphasis on the guns - the "ghost guns" - rather than on criminals and criminal use of guns. Militias are more linked to racism in past stories but that's not being driven in the Virgina situation. Even the progressive news takes pause in name-calling and vote-losing pre-2020 elections.
When did making a "ghost gun" become an alternative to acquiring guns "on the street" amongst those prohibited from selling and buying guns? Has the risk gone up or did good-old American ingenuity just kick in? Criminal are regular guys too and making gun is guy-stuff. Combined with a motivation (avoiding law enforcement), a great hobby (gun-stuff) and a need for self-defense and defense of property I can see where "ghost guns" have an appeal. Self-defense may be avoidance of successful retribution attacks from other groups and defense from theft may be guarding "fundraising property" (drugs, smuggled goods, etc.) but it's still a "need" addressed by guns on a global basis. Those New Zealand gang leaders indicated they didn't plan to turn in their guns but *do* take precautions not to let violence spill over beyond gang-to-gang into public life.
If "clubs" are dealing drugs, murdering, etc., are there no laws under which to arrest, indict and convict? Certainly so, but that requires evidence, witnesses, a unanimous jury verdict... Felons with guns is a simple fact to prove, and so *much* easier to convict on than squishy stuff like violent crime.
That's what alarms me about this case. Going after guns is not going after malum in se *evil* crime.
Wickedcoolname
NES Member
Got to love biker gangs. Especially their cute little costumes. I love how they dress in black leather like they're some kinda of gay cowboy/pirates or extras in a Johnny Depp movie. I think it's cute how they all dress the same. Fat, unkempt facial hair, shitty looking tattoos, leather vest covered with tough guy merit badges, black tee shirt missing the sleeves, (nothing better than a muscle shirt on a dude who thinks fat is muscle) a wallet on a two foot chain, assless chaps, (only ever seen on The Village People), over priced motorcycle with obnoxious exhaust and covered in extremely original looking skulls and flames. Nothing says, "look out, I'm scary!" like skulls and flames!
Then I love how these low life gang bangers try to pass themselves off as good guys because between times when they're not selling narcotics or committing violent crimes one of them once helped an old lady across the street. Yup, that should make up for a legacy of being drug dealing murdering scumbags from the dirt floor of life.
Everything most people hate about motorcycle riders is because of biker gangs. Us normal riders are forever lumped in with these greasy annoying punks. Thankfully the world is full of smart people who ride proper bikes and wear normal clothes and who have never comitted a single crime in their life. And thankfully we far outnumber the laughable weirdos who like to dress up and play like a bunch of loud and dirty morons.
Southpark nailed it with the Harley Faggots episode. Nothing but a bunch of insecure simpletons from the wrong side of the tracks who never got enough attention when they were kids.
I wonder if the poor, silly bastards realize how the rest of the world laughs when we see them in their little costumes. It's like trick or treat for a group of slow kids.
Vroom vroom vroom...wee! Look at me! "Im a cowboy, on a steel horse I ride and I'm wanted, wanted, dead or alive" Yeah, OK Bonjizzy!
When Idiot gun owners shoot up street signs and shoot other hunters many people have a negative view of all gun owners.
When some riders decide they have to form a criminal gang of morons many people associate all riders with them.
I would never defend people acting like a**h***s with guns. Why would anybody defend people acting like a**h***s on motorcycles?
Then I love how these low life gang bangers try to pass themselves off as good guys because between times when they're not selling narcotics or committing violent crimes one of them once helped an old lady across the street. Yup, that should make up for a legacy of being drug dealing murdering scumbags from the dirt floor of life.
Everything most people hate about motorcycle riders is because of biker gangs. Us normal riders are forever lumped in with these greasy annoying punks. Thankfully the world is full of smart people who ride proper bikes and wear normal clothes and who have never comitted a single crime in their life. And thankfully we far outnumber the laughable weirdos who like to dress up and play like a bunch of loud and dirty morons.
Southpark nailed it with the Harley Faggots episode. Nothing but a bunch of insecure simpletons from the wrong side of the tracks who never got enough attention when they were kids.
I wonder if the poor, silly bastards realize how the rest of the world laughs when we see them in their little costumes. It's like trick or treat for a group of slow kids.
Vroom vroom vroom...wee! Look at me! "Im a cowboy, on a steel horse I ride and I'm wanted, wanted, dead or alive" Yeah, OK Bonjizzy!
When Idiot gun owners shoot up street signs and shoot other hunters many people have a negative view of all gun owners.
When some riders decide they have to form a criminal gang of morons many people associate all riders with them.
I would never defend people acting like a**h***s with guns. Why would anybody defend people acting like a**h***s on motorcycles?
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allen-1
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It makes them a**h***s and you a criminal. If I were on the jury, I would vote to convict on both stolen valor and assault charges.
Strictly speaking, it would be illegal for a non-member to wear a patch as it would be violating the law about fraudulently representing membership in a professional organization or trade union (depending on the interpretation of the status of a bike club). One of the largest gangs in MA has an aggressive policy about enforcing this with their "Do not tolerate a MPA sticker on a civilian vehicle, and do not let any vehicle you stop with such a sticker drive off if there is no police connection". The MPA sticker is a membership decal of the Mass Police Assn that is to be placed in one of two traffic stop visible positions on members cars. These are serial numbered and registered to the receiving officer.
So it is both buffoonery and possibly illegal to wear an orgs memberhip regalia if you are not a member.
My opinion is there is a difference in character between an org whose members look upon such a person as a jerk and one in which a beatdown is given, and consider the later to be criminal activity, and that only some types of orgs cross the line into the criminal in their self-help. Is your observation that someone might "get into trouble" presented as a justification?
Of course, I may be wrong and the reaction to unauthorized patch wear may be "excuse me sir, we would appreciate if you did not wear that since you are not one of us but, of course, we won't do anything if you do not comply."
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I've got an acquaintance who was a member of HA. He had a felony conviction for something, and went to one of those places where you could rent a gun and go shooting without a LTC. His ex learned of it and called the FBI. When the FBI came to his house, he admitted it.
They offered to drop the charges if he would "roll" on HA.
He spent five years in Federal prison and is alive today.
They offered to drop the charges if he would "roll" on HA.
He spent five years in Federal prison and is alive today.
In response to Ron's post above, re false representation
Ahhh the MPA ( and S.P.A.M ,B.P.P.A, FOP, et al) with their stickers that are a signal to their Brothers and Sisters in Blue not to stop or ticket the car.
Talk about gang activity...
it is actually ILLEGAL in MA to have an MPA sticker on your car if you are not a member or immediate family of a member.
M.G.L. c. 266, § 69
Whoever, not being a member of a society, association or labor union, for the purpose of representing that he is a member thereof, wilfully wears or uses the insignia, ribbon, badge, rosette, button or emblem thereof, if it has been registered in the office of the state secretary, shall be punished by a fine of not more than twenty dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one month, or both.
Some cop decided that the 20 dollar fine and or up to 30 days in jail was worth all the trouble to do this:
www.sentinelandenterprise.com
The Attorney filed a motion for dismissal on free speech grounds, citing the Stolen Valor act being ruled unconstitutional .
www.lowellsun.com
Ahhh the MPA ( and S.P.A.M ,B.P.P.A, FOP, et al) with their stickers that are a signal to their Brothers and Sisters in Blue not to stop or ticket the car.
Talk about gang activity...
it is actually ILLEGAL in MA to have an MPA sticker on your car if you are not a member or immediate family of a member.
M.G.L. c. 266, § 69
Whoever, not being a member of a society, association or labor union, for the purpose of representing that he is a member thereof, wilfully wears or uses the insignia, ribbon, badge, rosette, button or emblem thereof, if it has been registered in the office of the state secretary, shall be punished by a fine of not more than twenty dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one month, or both.
Some cop decided that the 20 dollar fine and or up to 30 days in jail was worth all the trouble to do this:
Craigslist ad for Police Association sticker leads to day in court
LOWELL — A Chelmsford man is in a sticky legal situation after allegedly posting for sale on Craigslist a Massachusetts Police Association windshield sticker that belongs to an Ashby police o…
www.sentinelandenterprise.com
The Attorney filed a motion for dismissal on free speech grounds, citing the Stolen Valor act being ruled unconstitutional .
Charges dropped against Chelmsford man in police-sticker sale
LOWELL — Prosecutors have dropped charges against a Chelmsford man who was accused last year of posting for sale on Craigslist a set of Massachusetts Police Association stickers that belong t…
www.lowellsun.com
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But many of the others are sold to the public who think they are buying favoritism.
It is only an OPINION of the police it is illegal. And please cite the clause in the law that provides an exemption for an immediate family member.
The obvious intent of the law is to prevent things like non-union electricians from displaying an IBEW logo on their truck to fool customers. In order to argue in court that a civilian was using it to mis-represent one as LE, one would either need to prove the person made such a claim, or explain why someone would be doing that - and thus testify to the fact that these are immunity stickers. If the civilian claims it was displayed as a show of support, it is up to the prosecution to prove the motivation was impersonation.
If I pretend to be a .gov gang member (cop, military), .gov will send their gang members to lock me up in a small cage until they decide what to do with me. If I don't willingly submit to being chained up and brought to their cage, I'll receive a beat down.
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They will do so in compliance with the law which exists because doing so is an attempt to steal lawfully granted authority over one's fellow citizens, and there are specific laws against impersonating a police officer. I am not familiar with the laws regarding impersonating a service member.
This is a completely different matter than unauthorized use of a private club's logo.
are you serious?
there are a lot of biker clubs around the country. in the midwest it's the thing to do. 99% of them have no involvement in anything criminal. many of them are guys who are sober and no longer drink or use drugs.
If the logo is copyrighted or if there is a trademark involved, it is a lot easier to to go after them civilly for claiming to be IBEW or otherwise and using the logo. A Criminal court is not going to care unless a house burnt down with loss of life and they were looking to pile on charges.
Unfortunately the language about family members and MPA stickers is in my late Dad's desk in MA ( I am in FL this week) in one of the MPA handbooks he got when he was a L.E.O.
There are lots of clubs, a friend of mine is in a " military/law enforcement" club, he got in because he is a "reserve deputy Sheriff " or in other words he gave 50 bucks to the Sheriff when he was running for re-election and got a badge that means jack schit to anyone who is a real sworn officer. I guess the club isn't that fussy about credentials.... I wonder if I could get in using the badge sticker I got in first grade from " Officer Max" who came once a year to visit the school... long before society decided we needed cops in every school full time as " school resource officers"
The difference in the biker community starts getting funny when you start calling your "club" a MC as opposed to a RC, and if you start using a 3 piece patch expect from push back from certain groups. Even wearing "support wear" from the wrong club in another clubs claimed area will result in a beating.
Different thugs, with different people making up the rules.
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I MA, yes. I have heard first hand stories of such non-sworn "support badges" being accepted in other states where the Sheriffs dept is primary LE.
Yes, but impersonating one is making the claim that I just obey his/her orders under penalty of law. Impersonating the other means nothing to me.
Note that I specifically said 1%er club members. The 99%ers, typical retired dentist and his buddies playing dress up on their Harley don’t scare me or anyone else.
No, I don’t buy the whole “they are really nice guys” thing. This is just one of many examples:
But the outlaw bikers? I want nothing to do with them.
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