Improper storage charge....in a car?

[ccm75]

He's showing up at the PD drunk.
I bet it's not the first time. Thus, they're throwing the book at him...

 

[CCW]

Don’t forget loading when you return. I feel quite comfortable however, riddle me this Batman...

Why do many ranges require that when you chamber a round you are pointed down range and on target so that a round won’t leave the range? Slam fire. Although more common in rifles with free floating firing pins, they happen.

If the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction such as the dashboard or center consul then you might damage some property but otherwise would not be injured. So then I guess the question really is would you be more concerned about a ND or the possibility of a jackbooted thug interaction resulting in you getting jammed up on a storage charge? I wonder what would actually be more likely. Of course there’s no data to say.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

If the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction such as the dashboard or center consul then you might damage some property but otherwise would not be injured. So then I guess the question really is would you be more concerned about a ND or the possibility of a jackbooted thug interaction resulting in you getting jammed up on a storage charge? I wonder what would actually be more likely. Of course there’s no data to say.

And I am sure no legal trouble will come my way after discharging in front of what is likely a GFZ, because otherwise why would I be disarming in the first place?

Safe direction is a given I would hope!

 

[CCW]

And I am sure no legal trouble will come my way after discharging in front of what is likely a GFZ, because otherwise why would I be disarming in the first place?

Safe direction is a given I would hope!

In the hopefully very unlikely event that you actually have a discharge what makes you think it would be discovered? People in the area may hear the shop but how are they going to know it came from inside your car? I first started shooting guns when I was eight years old. Couldn’t tell you how many hundreds of thousands of times I’ve chambered a round in a handgun. Never heard of a slam fire. Nobody I’ve ever met in my years of shooting has ever mentioned seeing or hearing about one either. So if you keep your finger off the trigger the chances of you having an issue are pretty much slim to none.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

In the hopefully very unlikely event that you actually have a discharge what makes you think it would be discovered? People in the area may hear the shop but how are they going to know it came from inside your car? I first started shooting guns when I was eight years old. Couldn’t tell you how many hundreds of thousands of times I’ve chambered a round in a handgun. Never heard of a slam fire. Nobody I’ve ever met in my years of shooting has ever mentioned seeing or hearing about one either. So if you keep your finger off the trigger the chances of you having an issue are pretty much slim to none.

How many times have the police verified that your vehicle stored pistol was unloaded?

 

[Len-2A Training]

If the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction such as the dashboard or center consul then you might damage some property but otherwise would not be injured. So then I guess the question really is would you be more concerned about a ND or the possibility of a jackbooted thug interaction resulting in you getting jammed up on a storage charge? I wonder what would actually be more likely. Of course there’s no data to say.

I did have a student who lost his LTC due to a ND in a car. His chief told him to take another course and he'd consider re-instating the LTC. No idea if he did or not.

 

[CCW]

How many times have the police verified that your vehicle stored pistol was unloaded?

How many NDs have you had? I know about my gun handling skills and I know how the cops act around here. I'll take the former over the latter any day of the week. Everyone is free to do as they please.

 

[CCW]

I did have a student who lost his LTC due to a ND in a car. His chief told him to take another course and he'd consider re-instating the LTC. No idea if he did or not.

Another class for what? To tell him to keep his finger off the trigger?

 

[Jason Flare]

Another class for what? To tell him to keep his finger off the trigger?

I gotta say I’ve been around enough to fear the confident experts more than the overly cautious new guy.

 

[MAJoe]

IIRC, the requirement for locked storage for ammunition comes from the CMRs for fire safety and not the MGLs. The CMRs for fire safety do not apply to a vehicle.

I suppose if you left it loose in an unlocked car, they could take a swing at you for violating 269-10, leaving it unattended "with intent to transfer" or the like.

As answered above. Only applies to a dwelling (Fire Marshal's CMR), not a car.

Great, thanks both.

 

[Matt_SERE]

Wow I missed this entertaining, educational, thread.

Since your handgun doesn't have a clip the answer is no. You don't need to put something that doesn't exist in a locked box.

What if his handgun is a broom handle Mauser?

A moving picture is worth a 1,000,000 words:
MAUSER C96 Broomhandle in 7.63×25mm Mauser cartridge.
The Mauser C96 (Construktion 96) is a semi-automatic pistol that was originally produced by German arms manufacturer Mauser from 1896 to 1937.

 

[Waher]

C96 copies in various calibers are still produced to this day. I think a .22lr version is even on the EOPS roster.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

How many times have the police verified that your vehicle stored pistol was unloaded?

In the last 5 years I've stored my handgun only once. I was at the Worcester Courthouse to file a Will. The parking lot was very busy with mostly sketchy looking people. I chose to store loaded rather than unloading and clearing it in such an environment. I generally don't go to any GFZ's, no reason to.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

How many times have the police verified that your vehicle stored pistol was unloaded?

Once, at the custom crossing into Canada, eh?

 

[fencer]

Alright... what the heck are you supposed to do in a double cab pick up? The answer is you better have locking gun cases. When I load up for the range, all firearms are in a locked case, except the one on my hip. And although I may not have too, I have a tool box that locks for ammo. It also carries a handful of tools and boresnakes etc. to clear a jam or squib. I have no desire to engage in a roadside debate with a cop who is convinced they know everything.
I got one of those tool boxes that has a retractable handle and wheels, so it works like a dolly. It is great because I can stack a couple of pistol cases on top of it once I am at the range.
Targets, eyes, ears, binoculars or spotting scope, notebook and pencil etc in my back pack/ range bag, with a very well stocked first aid kit that 1ncludes kwik clot, Israeli bandages and tourniquets.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

In the last 5 years I've stored my handgun only once. I was at the Worcester Courthouse to file a Will. The parking lot was very busy with mostly sketchy looking people. I chose to store loaded rather than unloading and clearing it in such an environment. I generally don't go to any GFZ's, no reason to.

Last courthouse I was at was Newburyport for jury duty. They checked mine for me.

 

[Sauer Grapes]

Last courthouse I was at was Newburyport for jury duty. They checked mine for me.

Worcester would check my knife, but not gun. That's how I wound up back in the parking lot.

 

[Masswhole]

I need to pick up a console vault for carry gun and spare mags (currently in dash cubby).
The locking toolbox in bed could work, but it'd be really obvious what I was doing in a public place.
Plus it's already jammed with ammo, range essentials and a couple rifles at all times.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Worcester would check my knife, but not gun. That's how I wound up back in the parking lot.

That is some MA logic right there

 

[tuna]

Section 131C. (a) No person CARRYING a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall CARRY the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while CARRIED therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(b) No person CARRYING a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall POSSESS the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(c) No person POSSESSING a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall POSSESS the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.

Now I know it's a Mass law, because I'm completely confused.
A) Says I can't carry a loaded gun in a car unless it's under my control.
B) Talks of carrying with a Class B - so doesn't apply.
C) Is rifle or shotgun

But when I put the gun in the safe, or put it in the trunk, then it is no longer "carried", it is stored.

Not debating the "smart move" or the "Massachusetts move" - but I would think a legal move is to just put the pistol in a safe loaded. Isn't the premise that the law tells you what you can't do, not what you can?

 

[CrackPot]

Now I know it's a Mass law, because I'm completely confused.
A) Says I can't carry a loaded gun in a car unless it's under my control.
B) Talks of carrying with a Class B - so doesn't apply.
C) Is rifle or shotgun

But when I put the gun in the safe, or put it in the trunk, then it is no longer "carried", it is stored.

Not debating the "smart move" or the "Massachusetts move" - but I would think a legal move is to just put the pistol in a safe loaded. Isn't the premise that the law tells you what you can't do, not what you can?

(a) says you cant carry loaded unless under your control. loaded in your safe in the car would constitute in the car loaded and not under your direct control and a violation of 131C. Sure, you could try the argument that it is storage, but I would not bet my freedom and gun rights on that argument.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

(a) says you cant carry loaded unless under your control. loaded in your safe in the car would constitute in the car loaded and not under your direct control and a violation of 131C. Sure, you could try the argument that it is storage, but I would not bet my freedom and gun rights on that argument.

Not to split hairs, but do you mean when you are parked or underway?

 

[JNewell]

Not to split hairs, but do you mean when you are parked or underway?

Because, IIRC, you can violate both alcohol and texting statutes while parked/not operating, I would say "both."

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Because, IIRC, you can violate both alcohol and texting statutes while parked/not operating, I would say "both."

I meant parked and no longer in the vehicle.

 

[tuna]

I meant parked and no longer in the vehicle.

This is my issue with the wording of the law.

***I get that I can't CARRY a loaded pistol in the vehicle. To me, this means that whether or not you secure it with a lock or safe, you can't have a "car pistol" that is just there always. *** Edit - brain fart when typing: first sentence should read "I get that I can't have a loaded pistol in the vehicle that I'm not CARRYING" - with "carrying" meaning that it is under my control, either on me or in hand.***

The only time that this would apply to me, and I'm thinking most people here, would be if I was carrying, and had to go somewhere that a firearm isn't allowed. The gun would only be "out of my direct control" when I wasn't IN the vehicle. I don't see how you can argue that I'm carrying a firearm when I'm not present - but this is Mass.

Scenario - I'm going about my day and need to pick up my kid from the school nurse. I park off school property (just to keep things simple), unholster my pistol and put in the under seat safe, lock it up, exit the vehicle, lock vehicle, and go get my kid. Until I exit the vehicle, the gun is in my hands, even if in a safe. Once I exit, I would say (I'm not a lawyer, and only played doctor as a child) that my gun is STORED, not CARRIED. This is obviously much easier than unloading it, and also safer - but I realize just because it makes sense doesn't make it true.

 

[Another_David]

But when I put the gun in the safe, or put it in the trunk, then it is no longer "carried", it is stored.

I meant parked and no longer in the vehicle.

Imagine you do have a loaded handgun in your trunk as you're driving and get pulled over. They ask you to get out, search your car and find it. Are you now parked and it's stored? What would the police have to do to find you driving around with a loaded firearm in the trunk--would they have to look in the trunk while you're driving?

My point is, if it's in the trunk and the car seems like it's driveable (e.g. isn't a jacked up RV) and the handgun in the trunk isn't unloaded then they're going to charge you and you can argue your storage theory in front of the judge but it's paper thin.

 

[namedpipes]

I wonder just how difficult it would be to devise a safe or locking device that, when released with a fingerprint as you insert your hand to grip the pistol, loads and charges the pistol as you pull it out?

The pistol would absolutely be locked up and empty until you put your hand in and it reads your print, but by the time you bring it into position, it's ready to rock and roll...

 

[tuna]

I wonder just how difficult it would be to devise a safe or locking device that, when released with a fingerprint as you insert your hand to grip the pistol, loads and charges the pistol as you pull it out?

The pistol would absolutely be locked up and empty until you put your hand in and it reads your print, but by the time you bring it into position, it's ready to rock and roll...

IIRC the Soviets had a holster for the Makarov that carried the gun on an empty chamber, but you drew it in a downward motion, which racked the slide and loaded a round. I guess you could use that as the groundwork...

 

[Another_David]

I wonder just how difficult it would be to devise a safe or locking device that, when released with a fingerprint as you insert your hand to grip the pistol, loads and charges the pistol as you pull it out?

The pistol would absolutely be locked up and empty until you put your hand in and it reads your print, but by the time you bring it into position, it's ready to rock and roll...

way too complicated. just store the pistol with slide locked back and mag loaded but not in the pistol.

I actually prefer this for long term storage that way when you need the pistol there's no doubt there's one in the chamber because you just loaded it.

 

[a73elkyss]

Alright... what the heck are you supposed to do in a double cab pick up? The answer is you better have locking gun cases. When I load up for the range, all firearms are in a locked case, except the one on my hip. And although I may not have too, I have a tool box that locks for ammo. It also carries a handful of tools and boresnakes etc. to clear a jam or squib. I have no desire to engage in a roadside debate with a cop who is convinced they know everything.
I got one of those tool boxes that has a retractable handle and wheels, so it works like a dolly. It is great because I can stack a couple of pistol cases on top of it once I am at the range.
Targets, eyes, ears, binoculars or spotting scope, notebook and pencil etc in my back pack/ range bag, with a very well stocked first aid kit that 1ncludes kwik clot, Israeli bandages and tourniquets.

O.K. I thought we've all been down this rabbit hole before and I've learned things from you all. Thank you. I've also taken GOAL's Jon Green's course on how to navigate the messed up Massachusetts laws and will take Len's course at a future date. For me, I just like to know what's going on.

With that being said, I "thought" I had myself covered with how I "transport" within my car. My POS is a four door Camry. Both rear seats can fold down with latches on the inside and does not require a key to fold them down. Thus my logic, not what anyone told me, is that the trunk area is not 100% secure. So, all handguns are in locked cases without magazines. All magazines are in a separate locked container that is hard cabled to the trunks interior frame. I guess if I really wanted to go the extra mile, I would run the hard cable thru the handgun cases.

I also agree that going the extra step eliminates me from having a "debate" about gun storage laws if I get stopped. I'm kind an old fart and drive like my Papa did, kinda the old slow and steady thing. And when I'm on a range trip, I drive even slower. So if I do get stopped, I feel I'm covered and if a LEO asks to look in the trunk, go for it, I don't care. Now if asked to open locked containers, that is another thing and am not sure about that.

Jay