Mr. Brownstone
NES Member
By your logic, a person who is drunk inside a bar with their vehicle parked out front could be charged with OUI.
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Improper storage charge....in a car?
- Thread starter DPR
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DUI has many precedence though so it's not a fair comparison.
The better analogy would be you get in a car accident--hit a tree with no witnesses and total your car--the police arrive then arrest you for DUI. But your car is parked and you're not even driving!
namedpipes
NES Member
Get out of the car, pop into the nearest bar and pound drinks. You went to make a call and were so jittery you had to steady yourself silly.
Mr. Brownstone
NES Member
If my vehicle is in a parking lot, and I am nowhere near it, it is pretty hard to argue that I am driving it.
namedpipes
NES Member
According to the renowned Mass law professor, Erwin Schrödinger, PhD, you CAN legally be both operating and NOT operating your vehicle.
You guys are overcomplicating this so much that people are now questioning if they can carry while driving.
Stop confusing storage and transportation.
In the case of a pistol stored in a gun safe in the passenger compartment of a car or truck, not the trunk; someone show me the law that states it must be unloaded while STORING it.
Don't suppose what someone will do if found in this condition, show me the law. If not, then just leave it at unload it if you feel safer doing so.
Stop confusing storage and transportation.
In the case of a pistol stored in a gun safe in the passenger compartment of a car or truck, not the trunk; someone show me the law that states it must be unloaded while STORING it.
Don't suppose what someone will do if found in this condition, show me the law. If not, then just leave it at unload it if you feel safer doing so.
Well, this remains clear as mud...
My understanding was always DRIVING = Loaded and under direct control, or stored unloaded and inaccessible from the driver’s compartment. PARKED = same as driving, for Massprudence. AWAY FROM VEHICLE = locked, either loaded or unloaded.
My understanding was always DRIVING = Loaded and under direct control, or stored unloaded and inaccessible from the driver’s compartment. PARKED = same as driving, for Massprudence. AWAY FROM VEHICLE = locked, either loaded or unloaded.
problem solved--just never go near your car. why didn't I think of that!
tuna
NES Member
I edited my last post to reflect that I had a brain fart, I meant that you can only carry a loaded gun, not have a loaded gun elsewhere in the passenger compartment.
I think that what torques everyone's brain, at least people like me, is that there is the law as it is written, which isn't very clear to start with, then there is the law as interpreted by police, and finally the law and how it is applied and further interpreted by the courts.
I think it's safe to say that: Storing a pistol in your gun safe, loaded, under the seat while you go into the post office is LEGAL according to the law. HOWEVER, once you're in the car, you're breaking the law until you again have direct control over it. If you unload your gun before putting it in the safe under the seat, you're sure to be ok, or as ok as any gun owner in Massachusetts is.
Until the hunting regulations are interpreted to mean that you can't CCW within 500 feet of an occupied dwelling without owner's permission.
I think that what torques everyone's brain, at least people like me, is that there is the law as it is written, which isn't very clear to start with, then there is the law as interpreted by police, and finally the law and how it is applied and further interpreted by the courts.
I think it's safe to say that: Storing a pistol in your gun safe, loaded, under the seat while you go into the post office is LEGAL according to the law. HOWEVER, once you're in the car, you're breaking the law until you again have direct control over it. If you unload your gun before putting it in the safe under the seat, you're sure to be ok, or as ok as any gun owner in Massachusetts is.
Until the hunting regulations are interpreted to mean that you can't CCW within 500 feet of an occupied dwelling without owner's permission.
I fail to see how you would not be in direct control of a gun that you are either inserting or removing from a gun safe, loaded or not.
....unless you are "that" cop.
I guess it would be grey if you were sitting there for a while before retrieving it.
Stashing it loaded while driving when not under direct control isn't a great idea in this state in the event of an accident or someone unauthorized accessing it.
Just don't drive off with it still in the safe loaded. You are a responsible gun owner.
....unless you are "that" cop.
I guess it would be grey if you were sitting there for a while before retrieving it.
Stashing it loaded while driving when not under direct control isn't a great idea in this state in the event of an accident or someone unauthorized accessing it.
Just don't drive off with it still in the safe loaded. You are a responsible gun owner.
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O.K. please someone clarify this one for me? I was under the impression that the United States Post Office is Federal property. Not just the actual building, but the land that the building is on, I.E. the USPS parking lot. If I remember there is case law on this, but I can't find or reference it, so I admit I could be totally wrong on this.
For me, I'm kinda fortunate that the USPS facility that I use has a side parking lot that is not their property (yes, I asked the Postmaster), so I just park there...
Jay
CrackPot
NES Member
I too park either on the street or in an adjacent parking lot and lock up my gun in a car safe before going to the PO. There is case law around the parking lot that I could find eventually if needed. This is all a royal pain given how often I go form my shop to the PO to drop off or pick up a gun.
At least if you have a Class A LTC with no restrictions, the law is crystal-clear. It may be the only part of this that is crystal-clear. Carrying a loaded "firearm" (which means a pistol or revolver in MA) on your person or within your direct control is clearly legal.
Change the facts and you potentially go down the rabbit hole, though.
namedpipes
NES Member
The issue appears to be that everyone has a slightly different opinion on what "direct control" means. To ME, it would seem to mean "upon my person" or requiring that I cooperate in giving someone access to it. IE, if not in my holster, the doors are locked and the loose gun is in my safe.
If I'm sitting in the drivers seat and the gun is loaded, in a case in the trunk but the doors are locked, I have to let you into the car before you can access the fold down back seat, the locked case or the firearm. That's (IMO) under my direct control.
All that said, if there's a gun in my car and not on my person, it's unloaded and locked or cased. Except for the cannon. That's too big for a case. Or a lock. Or a trunk.
For the humor impaired, the photo of the cannon, though real, is not of my own cannon. You can see the cannon in the pic at the Charlestown Navy Yard here:
Google Maps
The issue appears to be that everyone has a slightly different opinion on what "direct control" means. To ME, it would seem to mean "upon my person" or requiring that I cooperate in giving someone access to it. IE, if not in my holster, the doors are locked and the loose gun is in my safe.
If I'm sitting in the drivers seat and the gun is loaded, in a case in the trunk but the doors are locked, I have to let you into the car before you can access the fold down back seat, the locked case or the firearm. That's (IMO) under my direct control.
All that said, if there's a gun in my car and not on my person, it's unloaded and locked or cased. Except for the cannon. That's too big for a case. Or a lock. Or a trunk.
View attachment 226981
For the humor impaired, the photo of the cannon, though real, is not of my own cannon. You can see the cannon in the pic at the Charlestown Navy Yard here:
Google Maps
I'm nearly completely in agreement, legally and practically (not necessarily the same thing). I would be very comfortable with a loaded "firearm" within arm's reach in the front of the vehicle. I have long arms and I can reach the back seat of my Jeep, but I'm not interested in debates on the side of the road. Other than that, unloaded, locked and cased (or cased and locked, or maybe locked and cased and locked), because it just isn't worth getting into debates.
AHM
NES Member
Example: my 2013 2Dr Civic Si.
It has a lever by the driver rocker panel that pops the trunk,
but the lever can be locked by the ignition key.
And the rear seats fold down, exposing a portal into the trunk,
but the seat latch releases are only accessible from the trunk -
not the passenger compartment.
This is a change from my 2003 3Dr Civic Si -
Its hatchback lever wasn't lockable,
and the rear seat latches were accessible
from the passenger compartment.
I think it is so owners can lock the trunk
in a way that doesn't allow the valet key to unlock it.
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Len, your fire chief told you that ammunition/components stored in a tractor shed still counts towards the CMR's "per-structure" limit, because the shed is "the same structure" as your house, even though (for all any of us knows), the shed might be ¼ mile away from the house.
So what makes you think that a car isn't "a structure" for fire code ammo storage regulations?
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Real operating operators who have to park on school grounds in Masschusetts while carrying:
- Park.
- Pirouette to the trunk while concealed carrying.
- Pop the trunk.
- Dump the mag.
- Ostentatiously point the piece up into the sky while racking the slide several times to clear the pipe.
- Place everything in the trunk's lock box(es).
- Proceed unarmed into the school, sure that they have obeyed the law.
- Are shocked, shocked to discover a SWAT team waiting for them at their car when they return. (Because they carried from the driver's seat to the trunk, and someone spotted all of the brandishing).
If you acquiesce to a fishing expedition during a traffic stop because you have nothing to hide, I hope you enjoy the ride.
If there is a portal to the trunk that you can reach from the back seat without using a key, then the trunk does not legally qualify as a locked container for Mass gun transportation law.
Because I asked my chief about any fire code restrictions on transporting ammo and his answer was not as long as it is less than 100K rds, then Fed placarding law comes into play. That discussion was the result of a student asking me about that during one of my Mass Gun Law Seminars a number of years ago.
DPR
NES Member
Interesting. As far as I know placards are by weight/gallons not so much "quantity" and CDL/no CDL issue...either way if your driving around with that much you're probably not worried about placards and certainly not doing it in a honda civic!
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Do you have a cite for this, or is it just reasoned speculation and advice how to walk the cautions path?
If you can reach in and grab the gun (remember you don't need a locked case in the trunk), then it doesn't meet the accepted definition of a "locked case" (trunk), does it?
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The EOPS has stated that a locked trunk qualifies. One can debate if this is locked.
When making categorical statements such as "does not qualify", it is important to make it clear if what you are saying is in MGL; established by a court decision; dicta; or your conclusion. While there is strong reasoning to your conclusion, it is just that - a conclusion not yet tested by the system (though one would be well advised to act as if it had been).
AHM
NES Member
There isn't...
...so the trunk's not disqualified on that basis.
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Many cars have rear seats that fold down to increase trunk storage space (great for hauling 2x4's). These seats can generally be locked in place from inside the trunk.
Sauer Grapes
NES Member
Schrodinger's Gun.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
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1. A driver could not reach the trunk while seated in the driving position.
2. It would be impossible for anyone to fold the seats down if the car were fully occupied.
It is unclear what defines a court would apply to "locked trunk" (since EOPS has released an official statement a locked trunk qualifies). It could go whatever way the court wants.
It gets back to one thing - you are offering a well reasoned personal opinion rather than citing something specifically determined by case law precedent.
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As to post offices - the law says "except incidental to lawful purposes". Someone appealed to the federal court arguing licensed concealed carry was a lawful purpose, and carry while doing postal business was incidental to that purpose. The court applied the "but its guns" doctrine and ruled the law "obviously was not intended to apply to that situation", but only things like hunters setting foot on postal land.[/quote][/quote]
[/quote][/QUOTE]
What is the penalty if you get caught on post office property? The Dept. of Veterans Affairs CFRs gets you a mere $500 fine, and they at least have the decency to make the regulation clear about who can carry:
(37) Possession of firearms, carried either openly or concealed, whether loaded or unloaded (except by Federal or State law enforcement officers on official business, $500.
EJFudd
NES Member
Don't ya just love it? Threads like this one really tax my sanity. Common sense? Fuhgeddaboudit! Fear of the police, the courts, Dimples the Tyrant, your own shadow et al? Get used to it... 'cause this is Massachusetts.
Yep. I have my own definition of "direct control", but God forbid that it should actually mean what it says. This is Massachusetts after all.
Correct. But let's remember again that this is Massachusetts. So make up a "MassPrudance" law of your own to follow... 'cause Massachusetts after all.
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If depends if one is charged with violating the law or the regulation. (seriously)
One, with minor civil penalties, is in the CFR (Code Federal Regulations). The other is in USC (United States Code) and carries criminal penalties. See 18 USC 930. The post office has its own CFR.
Details on the poster: http://about.usps.com/posters/pos158.pdf
Yup. MA is where a "Firearm ID Card" does not allow you to buy or possess what is defined as a firearms under MA law. And we are still trying to figure out what a zoobow is.
MisterHappy
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If you have to ask, you'll never know. About zoobows, at least.
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The problem is that I instinctively want one, but can't begin shopping until I know what I am looking for.
