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help me choose a full size & mostly metal range 9mm (MA)
- Thread starter ColdComfort
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ReluctantDecoy
NES Member
I'm going to run things back a little by saying the guns OP listed are all good to great guns. I'd be proud to have most of those in my safe. Just that reasons now that he wants them as a first pistol raise an eyebrow, but not entirely unfounded. I think what gets people the most about this post is the amount of debate happening at this point of pre-licensure. But I totally get it, as this was me not too long ago. Being excited about this stuff was fun. It being a little (not much) old hat for me is actually disappointing some times.
ReluctantDecoy
NES Member
P238 could do the same and not suck as hard, but at a substantially higher price point. The thing that kills me about the BG380 (possibly literally) is that I don't know if it will actually go bang when I need it to. I've replaced springs too. My copy is just bad. If you have a reliable copy, then I could see forgiving the long ass gritty trigger. It does completely disappear in carry.
I don’t have any experience with those. I had a full size which had been built from a low end Springfield and I wasn’t impressed. A friend of mine bought a 5” Springfield and had their custom shop do a bunch of work on it. It had a beautiful melt job. But the barrel hood moved down a lot when you pressed on it and it grouped noticeably worse than my 4” Kimber Compact.
So my experience with entry level 1911s has not been good.
Darkslide
NES Member
Get the CZ SP-01, then upgrade it with the CGW pro package when you save up some money. The CGW trigger is amazing, but the stock trigger is also pretty good if the heavy DA pull and the long reset doesn’t bother you. The dust cover is a big chunk of steel, you can bash zombie heads with it if you run outta ammo. Plus, it’s sexy as hell.
Also, pre B mags are scarce but available. If you change to the blue followers, it will hold 16 rounds. Put a +5 mag extension and you can get 21 rounds.
Also, pre B mags are scarce but available. If you change to the blue followers, it will hold 16 rounds. Put a +5 mag extension and you can get 21 rounds.
Darkslide
NES Member
You can get a gas pedal on a CZ, Sig, or Beretta.
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And of course the thing with the FAL is there's like 48 different versions / configs so you have to have at least a half dozen of them that's why I never touched those things ....
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
"inch, metric, with a side of corned beef during the troubles or baby poop camo from Rhodesia....And of course the thing with the FAL is there's like 48 different versions / configs so you have to have at least a half dozen of them that's why I never touched those things ....
Yep.
I currently have two after making a conscious effort to downsize, but the thing is that I built one of those specifically as trade bait... and yet there it is, in my safe. Because it's a gorgeous shooter.
So? I'm in penny-pinching mode again, instead of being able to trade. Lol.
SpencerT
NES Member
As others said…. Go to Granite state or MFS and spend some $ shooting everything they have that catches your eye. I believe that at granite state you rent all handguns for like $30 plus ammo and range fee, if you buy from them that day they also refund the range fee and rental fee, at least they used too.
I’m making some assumptions here but it’s not clear if you have experience shooting or not yet so you’re probably basing most of your decision on what you read/see online. You’ll save yourself some potential headaches by trying before buying, don’t worry about the striker vs hammer polymer vs steel bullchit, I’d rent a whole slew of guns and go from there. You may find that you prefer a shadow 2 enough to justify waiting on your purchase to get one for example vs dropping $5-700 on your mid range gun then buy a shadow 2 down the road anyway. (Shadow 2 only used as an example)
Try not to have any preconceived opinions going in and see what you like/shoot well.
Edit-
After shooting everything just buy a Glock 19 because we all know you will anyway
I’m making some assumptions here but it’s not clear if you have experience shooting or not yet so you’re probably basing most of your decision on what you read/see online. You’ll save yourself some potential headaches by trying before buying, don’t worry about the striker vs hammer polymer vs steel bullchit, I’d rent a whole slew of guns and go from there. You may find that you prefer a shadow 2 enough to justify waiting on your purchase to get one for example vs dropping $5-700 on your mid range gun then buy a shadow 2 down the road anyway. (Shadow 2 only used as an example)
Try not to have any preconceived opinions going in and see what you like/shoot well.
Edit-
After shooting everything just buy a Glock 19 because we all know you will anyway
Fun pistol. Used to be lots of magazines available for it until a few years after it was discontinued. Then, they were sucked up in anti 2a states. I've had mine over 30+ years and used it for a beginner's pistol when bringing newbies. It certainly is a tank. Trigger sucks and aftermarket is almost nonexistent, now. There are better choices available these days. Good luck.
OP, first I have to admit I have a thing for the S&W. I have more than one of both the 59 and 39 series, and I think they are great. But I also have the 92FS and the CZ-75D. So I'm only considering 3 of the ones you listed.
They are all good guns. The S&W out there tend to be older and condition varies greatly, the 910 in the series is the newest and would likely be in better shape, but there are far less of those out there. But look around and you will find a giid one. A big plus, for those of you in the PRMA, is the huge amount of pre-ban mags available, the same mag will fit the entire 59 series line. So you can use the pre-ban mages made for the 459 in the newer 910 no problem. The downside is it's a wide grip, you need big hands.
The 92 is nice, more ergonomic grip but not by much. It's a good gun, but nothing I get excited about.
And then I have the CZ-75D, where the F have you been all my life
This thing is just fantastic.The bore centerline is lower making it much easier to keep on target, paired with 147 FMJ and there is just nothing negative I'll say about it. It definitely gets first place.
Second place for me is one not on your list, the HK VP9.
Whatever you do, go to a range where you can try them out. No matter what anyone says, personal fit is key and no one here is you, so no one here can say how well the gun fits you.
Make sure you shoot a CZ
They are all good guns. The S&W out there tend to be older and condition varies greatly, the 910 in the series is the newest and would likely be in better shape, but there are far less of those out there. But look around and you will find a giid one. A big plus, for those of you in the PRMA, is the huge amount of pre-ban mags available, the same mag will fit the entire 59 series line. So you can use the pre-ban mages made for the 459 in the newer 910 no problem. The downside is it's a wide grip, you need big hands.
The 92 is nice, more ergonomic grip but not by much. It's a good gun, but nothing I get excited about.
And then I have the CZ-75D, where the F have you been all my life
This thing is just fantastic.The bore centerline is lower making it much easier to keep on target, paired with 147 FMJ and there is just nothing negative I'll say about it. It definitely gets first place.Second place for me is one not on your list, the HK VP9.
Whatever you do, go to a range where you can try them out. No matter what anyone says, personal fit is key and no one here is you, so no one here can say how well the gun fits you.
Make sure you shoot a CZ
Comes down to who made it. To me it's German, Manhurin, then US in terms of quality top down. But they all look cool and are natural pointers.blued (or is it black now?) or stainless?S&W, Manhurin, Interarms? or Fort Smith?
@Buck F and myself are enamored with the PPK even for all of its faults and generally shitty mchorrible nature.
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I hate striker fired guns.
The 1911 has the best trigger ever made, as JMB and God intended.
Except the CZ Shadow, made of steel also as the Lord intended, and has a trigger designed by Jesus.
The 1911 has the best trigger ever made, as JMB and God intended.
Except the CZ Shadow, made of steel also as the Lord intended, and has a trigger designed by Jesus.
From your list, I own a Beretta 92, CZ75b, and Canik TP9SFX. I used to own a Sig226 tricked out with a flat face srt trigger. All of these are accurate and reliable. Of the four, the CZ gets my vote, followed closely by the Canik. The CZ is ergonomic perfection. IMO the finest steel handgun design ever. The Beretta (and Sig) feel chunky by comparison. The Beretta also has a front sight that’s milled into the frame, so no swapping it out. I have the .22 Kadet kit for my CZ, and it makes it a fantastically flexible bit of kit.
The Canik punches way above its weight class. Excellent ergos, excellent sights, optics cut slide with plates for every different mounting option, different grip modules to fit it to your hand, holster included. For your $600 budget, you can afford to add a freedomsmith flat faced trigger, then you have a gun that begs to be shot fast, and stays on target. The Canik is a fantastic example of modern handgun design, and the fact that they can fit all of that in a $500 package makes it hands down the best value in handguns these days.
OTOH, I took a couple of new folks shooting for the first time last week, and they shot all three of the handguns mentioned above. None of the three turned them on like the M&P 2.0 Compact with the Apex flat faced trigger kit. Close second was the HK VP9 for them. As with everything else, it’s all about how a handgun fits you.
When I was just starting out, I also thought that a DA/SA was the way to go from a safety standpoint. It quickly became clear that repeatability is the key to accuracy. ESPECIALLY for a range gun, DA/SA would be at the bottom of my list. But if you’re stuck on that, the Beretta and Sig both feature decockers, so you don’t shoot your foot off manually lowering the hammer. Most striker fired guns require you to pull the trigger before disassembly, so that introduces a safety concern as well.
The Canik punches way above its weight class. Excellent ergos, excellent sights, optics cut slide with plates for every different mounting option, different grip modules to fit it to your hand, holster included. For your $600 budget, you can afford to add a freedomsmith flat faced trigger, then you have a gun that begs to be shot fast, and stays on target. The Canik is a fantastic example of modern handgun design, and the fact that they can fit all of that in a $500 package makes it hands down the best value in handguns these days.
OTOH, I took a couple of new folks shooting for the first time last week, and they shot all three of the handguns mentioned above. None of the three turned them on like the M&P 2.0 Compact with the Apex flat faced trigger kit. Close second was the HK VP9 for them. As with everything else, it’s all about how a handgun fits you.
When I was just starting out, I also thought that a DA/SA was the way to go from a safety standpoint. It quickly became clear that repeatability is the key to accuracy. ESPECIALLY for a range gun, DA/SA would be at the bottom of my list. But if you’re stuck on that, the Beretta and Sig both feature decockers, so you don’t shoot your foot off manually lowering the hammer. Most striker fired guns require you to pull the trigger before disassembly, so that introduces a safety concern as well.
dont buy a hi point, i paid 200 bucks for a ruger p93 , that gun shoot like a boss, look around, u may get lucky with ruger p series hand gun, they are cheap, build like a tank. i shot a whole box of bad 9mm ammo through it one time and gun did not blow up at all lol.
I can't believe someone actually recommended a HI Point. They must work for the company or own stock in it or something. The Hi Point is a POS jam-O-matic.
DarkJoker33
NES Member
My vote goes to the 92. But with a slight change.
If you get a 96(40 s&w) , and if my memory serves correctly you can drop a 9mm barrel or barrel and slide on and have 2 guns.
Additionally you get the 22lr conversion kit for it and have 3 guns in 1.
And being a beretta fan. I'd recommend the newer 92x if you are dead set on just having a 9mm.
Due to the fact of a pic rail (attach a light/laser) and rdo(red dot optic mount).
After all that get the Langdon tactical trigger job in a bag and the Wilson short reach trigger or Volker precision flat trigger
Then it's chefs kiss all the way.
If you get a 96(40 s&w) , and if my memory serves correctly you can drop a 9mm barrel or barrel and slide on and have 2 guns.
Additionally you get the 22lr conversion kit for it and have 3 guns in 1.
And being a beretta fan. I'd recommend the newer 92x if you are dead set on just having a 9mm.
Due to the fact of a pic rail (attach a light/laser) and rdo(red dot optic mount).
After all that get the Langdon tactical trigger job in a bag and the Wilson short reach trigger or Volker precision flat trigger
Then it's chefs kiss all the way.
Can't speak for whoever originally suggested it, but pretty sure there's been some sarcasm in this thread...
To the other suggestions re: try before you buy, don't rule anything out, it all depends on how it feels in your hands etc - I agree. In regards to firearms experience, I'd call myself a novice. For a few years in the mid 10s I shot regularly (1-4x/mo) with a group of friends; target handgun practice, clays, long guns, etc. Now that I'm more settled, I want to get back into it with an eye towards IDPSA and general marksmanship. Part of "getting back into it" is coming up with a deliberate training plan for improving my handgun shooting. I have 100s of rounds of experience shooting a 1911-style .45, but I'm pretty sure I picked up a lot of bad shooting habits. Learning on a 45 didn't make sense for me. It's probably a stretch to even call it learning. I racked up experience shooting poorly. I had no instruction to speak of (beyond basic safety), and I've convinced myself the path to shooting big calibers in tight groups goes through basics on a 22, followed by 9mm, etc.
I'm "hung up" on metal-ish DA/SA because I think if I can fire those well, I'm in a good spot for shooting with revolvers (which I'm also interested in). And if I can do those well, striker fire will come naturally. Maybe it isn't the right way to think about it, but my mental model is that a heavy-ish DA/SA is to a manual transmission what polymer striker fired handgun is to an automatic. Master the former, and the latter is a cake-walk.
Plus I think the all metal fullsized ones look great.
Mark from MA
NES Member
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Rock Island and Tisas have a few in that price range.
Heard some good things about Tisas. Actually considering a 9mm commander carry style , or the tank commander. Both are under 400 dollars.
On the whole they are actually pretty reliable. The real problem is that as a handgun the other 95% otherwise sucks, especially vs cost peers that are only marginally ($100) more expensive.
Mag safety, shit
Weird creepy trigger, shit
Single stack mags in a gun that weighs 5 pounds, shit
Marginal sights, shit
Poor safety lever, shit
Excessive weight for class, shit
Only get one mag in the box, shit (i thought kimber and sig were the only fags that did this but i was wrong)
Basically if a high point was a person and it was cast into a television show....
View: https://youtu.be/9nQryIfurRE
allen-1
NES Member
yeah - so - i laughed at this.I seem to have this problem with Glock 19s......
And then i was getting a couple .22’s from the safe for later and realized that i have a practically new G17 on the door that I’d forgotten about.
You should forget about the Ruger MK line of .22 if you want to practice for USPSA or IDPA. You mention wanting the 9mm to practice and learn how to shoot better with iron sights. So, how many rounds do you think it will take? I’d guess a couple thousand at least, maybe more.
When you start pricing out your next gun, include the cost of 3,000 rounds of ammo along with it.
Then compare it to a full size USPSA “like” rimfire pistol like the Taurus TX22 or Sig P322. You’ll find you can buy the .22 and learn to shoot with it and even compete in steel matches while you save $25 in ammo costs with each trip to the range. The gun will very quickly pay for itself in savings.
I just don’t understand why more people don’t choose this path. Will you be one of those shooters who doesn’t get to shoot nearly as much as you’d like because of the price of ammo???
When you start pricing out your next gun, include the cost of 3,000 rounds of ammo along with it.
Then compare it to a full size USPSA “like” rimfire pistol like the Taurus TX22 or Sig P322. You’ll find you can buy the .22 and learn to shoot with it and even compete in steel matches while you save $25 in ammo costs with each trip to the range. The gun will very quickly pay for itself in savings.
I just don’t understand why more people don’t choose this path. Will you be one of those shooters who doesn’t get to shoot nearly as much as you’d like because of the price of ammo???
Mesatchornug
NES Member
You're not strictly wrong, but there's a hitch with your thinkingCan't speak for whoever originally suggested it, but pretty sure there's been some sarcasm in this thread...
To the other suggestions re: try before you buy, don't rule anything out, it all depends on how it feels in your hands etc - I agree. In regards to firearms experience, I'd call myself a novice. For a few years in the mid 10s I shot regularly (1-4x/mo) with a group of friends; target handgun practice, clays, long guns, etc. Now that I'm more settled, I want to get back into it with an eye towards IDPSA and general marksmanship. Part of "getting back into it" is coming up with a deliberate training plan for improving my handgun shooting. I have 100s of rounds of experience shooting a 1911-style .45, but I'm pretty sure I picked up a lot of bad shooting habits. Learning on a 45 didn't make sense for me. It's probably a stretch to even call it learning. I racked up experience shooting poorly. I had no instruction to speak of (beyond basic safety), and I've convinced myself the path to shooting big calibers in tight groups goes through basics on a 22, followed by 9mm, etc.
I'm "hung up" on metal-ish DA/SA because I think if I can fire those well, I'm in a good spot for shooting with revolvers (which I'm also interested in). And if I can do those well, striker fire will come naturally. Maybe it isn't the right way to think about it, but my mental model is that a heavy-ish DA/SA is to a manual transmission what polymer striker fired handgun is to an automatic. Master the former, and the latter is a cake-walk.
Plus I think the all metal fullsized ones look great.
This whole discussion, which happens often, reminds me of a post @richc made recently about helping clients find the right solutions for them. The problem is that students (which is what clients often are, but I digress) don't know what they don't know. As a result, they define their needs poorly, without realizing it.
You've said you want the 22 to help build your fundamentals. That's awesome. Short of recoil control, it can do a lot of that. Of course, managing recoil, and the increased noise, seem to be most of what cause flinches. And you've already said you have bad habits from earlier.
There's a ton of stuff you have to train when you learn to shoot: Aiming, Hold Control, Breath Control, Trigger Control, Follow Through, and more. If you can retire unnecessary variables early on, you can elect to add more complexity later. If you start with too many, you're more likely to develop bad habits unless you're incredibly driven.
With a DA/SA pistol, you need to practice two different trigger controls, one of which is quite a bit harder, as well as proper application of safety/decocker. Dry practice with the SA trigger is less complex (no need to reset the trigger) but requires specific attention. Most shooters will practice just the SA side because that leads to greater success earlier.
You have to ask yourself: What specific problem are you looking to solve with this firearm? How will you be using it?
If you want it to teach you every possible skill related to pistol shooting, you're going to have a bad time.
A pistol that's configured for bullseye can be used for IDPA, and vice versa, but neither is ideal. If you're interested in action shooting, pick something that will help you on that path.
Same again, if you want its mechanical characteristics to replace proper safe handling.
The heavy DA trigger pull is only a "safety feature" on a carried pistol. The fundamental safety rules attempt to apply defense in depth. The problem is that when you put a firearm on your hip, you start breaking those rules - it's loaded, and sometimes you're pointing at things you don't intend to shoot. So we put it in a holster that covers the trigger, and add a safety or other feature that prevents the trigger from being pulled at inopportune moments.
The rest of the time, it's a liability. If you don't store the pistol with the hammer down, it's not doing you any good. If you don't dry practice that heavy pull, you'll fight it, throwing the first shot of every run.
If you're planning to compete, you will be required to use all of your firearm's safety features every time you come up to the line. This is in the rules. Here's a rough side-by-side of a stage of fire
| Striker (e.g. Glock) | SA (e.g. 1911) | DA/SA (e.g. 92FS) |
| remove firearm from holster | remove firearm from holster | remove firearm from holster |
| insert magazine | insert magazine | insert magazine |
| cycle slide | cycle slide | cycle slide |
| decock | ||
| activate safety | activate safety | |
| insert pistol in holster | insert pistol in holster | insert pistol in holster |
| BEEP | BEEP | BEEP |
| remove firearm from holster | remove firearm from holster | remove firearm from holster |
| deactivate safety | deactivate safety | |
| join hands | join hands | join hands |
| extend arms | extend arms | extend arms |
| align sights with target | align sights with target | align sights with target |
| squeeze ~5 lb trigger without disturbing sights | squeeze ~5 lb trigger without disturbing sights | squeeze ~10 lb trigger without disturbing sights |
| squeeze ~5 lb trigger without disturbing sights | ||
| repeat until end of stage | repeat until end of stage | repeat until end of stage |
| if finished, unload and show clear | if finished, unload and show clear | if finished, unload and show clear |
| squeeze ~5 lb trigger | squeeze ~5 lb trigger | |
| decock (or squeeze trigger) | ||
| activate safety | activate safety | |
| insert pistol in holster | insert pistol in holster | insert pistol in holster |
See all of those blank cells? Each one is an activity that shooter doesn't need to think about. Sure, with practice, it all becomes so natural that you literally don't recall doing most of it. Until then, each action requires intentional effort.
To be clear, the same is true in the MT/AT debate. There's a reason we increasingly start kids on go carts and pit bikes (and bicycles) that don't need to shift. They can worry about all that later, after they've got a bunch of the other stuff under control.
allen-1
NES Member
