Handgun a "BAD" idea for home defense???

[FunYun]

Thanks for the reply Mark L. I have read similar things in regards to a mag safety, which is why I had wondered why its met with such opposition.....

As far as the internal lock was concerned, I was more interested for longer storage when I'm not home and it will not be needed to be accessed in any sort of quick manner.

No point, the internal locks, AFAIK, all use some form of universal key. It would not be much of a hassle to get one.

The only thing you really do is risk it breaking and disabling your gun. As mentioned, you would be much better off with a safe. Make them work for the gun, don't just leave it in a drawer with a cable lock.

 

[Mass-diver]

Agreed... But if you look at your average sub-urban break in, the assailant is a neighborhood kid looking to snag your 60" plasma or home theater system. Not some blood thirsty, brain eating zombie that is "hunting you and your family". But of course... there are always exceptions.

I'm not so sure this is true. Violent home invasions, rapes, etc. seem pretty common these days. I think it's mistake to paint home invaders as "kids" just looking for a TV. Even "typical" B&Es are committed by scumbag, drug using pices of shit. These people don't care about anyone but themselves. They may not plan to do violence, but if if happens - no big deal. Most of these people commiting burgleries have long prison records, they don't care if they go back one more time. Think about, if you break into someone's home at night, you know the homeowners are probably going to be around, you just don't care. I don't mean this is in an offensive way, but are you an LEO? The reason I ask is that cops love to downplay the threat posed by violence criminals. They love to tell people to just hide and call 911. The classic "just do what they(criminal) tells you to do," comes to mind. Everyone should act like sheep and wait to defend themselves until there is a knife to their throat. Most criminals aren't violent anyways, right?

 

[M1911]

I'm not so sure this is true. Violent home invasions, rapes, etc. seem pretty common these days.

I don't think they are common, but they do happen. And when they happen, our 24x7 cable news channels have airspace to fill. If it bleeds it leads...

I'm not saying don't be prepared. I'm not saying that if a perp breaks in you can expect him just to lift your TV and leave. There are vicious predators out there.

 

[trophygrl]

if someone breaks into my house, it will likely be their last day on the planet.

i am not going to be raped and murdered by some sex crazed looney.

58 offenders
14 non-mappable offenders in my area.

i am not going to take a chance.

i am home alone a lot.

http://www.familywatchdog.us/

 

[Bob P]

Agreed...

But if you look at your average sub-urban break in, the assailant is a neighborhood kid looking to snag your 60" plasma or home theater system. Not some blood thirsty, brain eating zombie that is "hunting you and your family". But of course... there are always exceptions.

So IMO, to hide in a dark corner, pop out then blast whomever is in your living room as a "tactical move" is not the smartest thing to do.

Unfortunately (and not that I agree in the slightest), we don't have the same rights as that of homeowners that reside in "real" american states such as Texas for instance.

We CANNOT fire on someone intruding in our own god damn home to protect our personal property, even if they're walking out the front door w/ your $4000 tv. Or even if they're murdering your OWN FAMILY DOG!!!

It's absolutely rediculous. The criminals have greater rights then WE DO on our own property!!

If I were to put myself in the un-imaginable situation... I'd have to think that I would 1st try to dial 911... and/or be forced to confront the intruder in the most intelligent, easily and quickly defensible manner... ie: Blinding light in the eyes mounted on the barrel of a loaded/chambered shotgun... (from an area that allows quick and un-obstructed retreat). Followed by loud and clear instructions that they are about to be shot if they make any movement.

If said intruder has gun in hand or begins to reach for something or struggle... only then, BOOM... and hope for the best.

At least once you are in the court room you have some sort of evidence on your side. Instead of an angry mob of family members screaming law suit because we are a bunch of "trigger happy gun fanatics" who gunned down the beloved un-armed paperboy that wouldn't hurt a fly.

It downright sucks. But we only have our wonderful state gov't to blame for making it almost literally impossible to legally protect ourselves.

You have no duty to retreat in your home. NOT forting up someplace safe where you know what's behind you and where your family members are in relation to your position is NOT a good idea for a home defense plan. By all means tell him to freeze. Be prepared for him not to.

Relying on the sound of the action to scare off the person is a dubious plan at best. At the risk of sounding bloodthirsty, if you're not prepared to kill someone then don't use a gun for home/self defense. Find a less lethal alternative.


You need an actual plan as to what everyone's supposed to do in the event and then you need to rehearse it. My family has one and we have.

Done here. Punching out.

 

[Bill Nance]

You have no duty to retreat in your home. NOT forting up someplace safe where you know what's behind you and where your family members are in relation to your position is NOT a good idea for a home defense plan. By all means tell him to freeze. Be prepared for him not to.

Relying on the sound of the action to scare off the person is a dubious plan at best. At the risk of sounding bloodthirsty, if you're not prepared to kill someone then don't use a gun for home/self defense. Find a less lethal alternative.


You need an actual plan as to what everyone's supposed to do in the event and then you need to rehearse it. My family has one and we have.

Done here. Punching out.

+1

 

[Kalahari]

When I took my basic pistol safety course, we were told that MGL said that owners of a home must make every attempt to retreat from the home before firing on an intruder. Not sure how true this is/was.

 

[M1911]

When I took my basic pistol safety course, we were told that MGL said that owners of a home must make every attempt to retreat from the home before firing on an intruder. Not sure how true this is/was.

Completely false.

MGL chapter 278 Section 8A:

CHAPTER 278. TRIALS AND PROCEEDINGS BEFORE JUDGMENT

Chapter 278: Section 8A. Killing or injuring a person unlawfully in a dwelling; defense

Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

Your instructor didn't know WTF he was talking about.

MGL never said there was a duty to retreat. There was a decision by the Supreme Judicial Court that resulted in retreat being required, but the legislature quickly passed legislation correcting that. IIRC, that was during the Dukakis era.

 

[Bob P]

When I took my basic pistol safety course, we were told that MGL said that owners of a home must make every attempt to retreat from the home before firing on an intruder. Not sure how true this is/was.

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17501&highlight=home+defense

EDIT: M1911 beat me to it.

 

[M1911]

Thanks for the pointer to that thread. For some reason I couldn't think of the name of that decision. RKG posted it in that thread: Commonwealth v. Shaffer, 367 Mass. 508 (1975)

This is not new.

 

[Bob P]

Summary:

• Don’t use a gun for home defense unless you’re prepared to kill
• Your home defense gun should be handy.
• Pistols and shotguns are both effective home defense guns
• You need to aim both
• If you don’t practice and become proficient with your chosen gun, don’t bother buying one
• All self defense rounds will penetrate walls. Know what’s behind your target
• Have a plan. Have several plans. Make sure everyone in the house knows their role in the plan
• You do not have a duty to retreat INSIDE your home.
• Free advice is worth what you paid for it.

 

[S. Kelly]

Wait for the M&P45 to become available.

 

[rickster58]

Bob P..... well said bro

I still can't believe that I read this entire thread! It was a good read tho.

 

[Ray-500]

We'll go slow here...

When I'm home, it's pretty friggin' obvious. My car is in the driveway, my lights are on, and there's usually the sound of a radio/TV somewhere in the house.

When somebody decides to break into my house and knows I'm home, or has no reason to think that I'm not at home, I have to assume that they have some sort of a plan in mind to deal with me.

Don't you agree that this is a reasonable assumption?

What would that "plan" involve? Talking me out of my valuables? Probably not. There's no such thing as somebody breaking in to an occupied home with no intent to harm the occupants. No. Such. Thing.

I'm not so afraid of the State that I'm not going to defend myself.

I agree with you 1000%. My wife and I are both retired and normally, her Jeep and my truck are in the driveway. Its not that often that either one, or both, are not home.

If someone does actually break in, I assume the worst, and will act accordingly. Legalities will not enter my mind. My home has been breached, my wife and I are in danger. That's all I need to know.

 

[-kj-]

We'll go slow here...

When I'm home, it's pretty friggin' obvious. My car is in the driveway, my lights are on, and there's usually the sound of a radio/TV somewhere in the house.

When somebody decides to break into my house and knows I'm home, or has no reason to think that I'm not at home, I have to assume that they have some sort of a plan in mind to deal with me.

Don't you agree that this is a reasonable assumption?

What would that "plan" involve? Talking me out of my valuables? Probably not. There's no such thing as somebody breaking in to an occupied home with no intent to harm the occupants. No. Such. Thing.

I'm not so afraid of the State that I'm not going to defend myself.

I mention this because just this past week in my own neighborhood, 3 14-17yr olds were arrested for breaking into multiple houses on the next street down.

2 of the homes were occupied... which is how the kids got caught. They were chased out of the 1st one, only to try another on the same street a couple nights later.

Idk if they were on drugs, drunk or what... but they definetly were not the brightest group of kids.

How are you going to feel if you kill an un-armed 14yr old who has broken into your house while you're home just for the thrill of it? Kids do dumb things nowadays.

You'd do that and then tell it that way to the cops?

No offense, but if so, you must be really stupid.

I've been in court and under oath before.... and I honestly don't think that I could stand by a knowingly "made up" story and remain believable while my life and livelyhood was on the line.

Maybe you could do it and live with yourself... but I do believe in Karma.

Hey... maybe I'm just really stupid and you are the intelligent one here.

You have no duty to retreat in your home. NOT forting up someplace safe where you know what's behind you and where your family members are in relation to your position is NOT a good idea for a home defense plan. By all means tell him to freeze. Be prepared for him not to.

Relying on the sound of the action to scare off the person is a dubious plan at best. At the risk of sounding bloodthirsty, if you're not prepared to kill someone then don't use a gun for home/self defense. Find a less lethal alternative.


You need an actual plan as to what everyone's supposed to do in the event and then you need to rehearse it. My family has one and we have.

Done here. Punching out.

When I mentioned having a clear area behind me it was merely to have an area to back the f*ck up w/ out falling on the ground or getting trapped in a corner if said intruder keeps on coming at me... even if he has been shot multiple times.

It's been documented... perps that are high on meth/crack/coke or merely on an adrenalin rush will continue to attack only until either cns disruption or loss of blood or consiousness comes first (or restraint).

I have a plan... I am very well prepared to kill, but I am not prepared to MURDER... only then to have to fabricate a story to cover my own carelessness or lack of intelligent planning.

If a "safe retreat area" is not included in your plan... then good luck to you.


What do you suggest? "Forting up" in a corner and just waiting for him to stumble upon you?




Is there a particular reason you feel the need to break my balls Bob?

Dude, for one of your first posts on this forum, you ask advice, people give it and you begin to disagree with the advice you're given.

DUDE, I have NEVER asked ANYONE on here for ANY advice.... EVER. Search my posts... I know you already have.


And please point out where I said part of my plan was going to be "Relying on the sound of the action to scare off the person".

 

[law dawg]

Summary:

• Don’t use a gun for home defense unless you’re prepared to kill
• Your home defense gun should be handy.
• Pistols and shotguns are both effective home defense guns
• You need to aim both
• If you don’t practice and become proficient with your chosen gun, don’t bother buying one
• All self defense rounds will penetrate walls. Know what’s behind your target
• Have a plan. Have several plans. Make sure everyone in the house knows their role in the plan
• You do not have a duty to retreat INSIDE your home.
• Free advice is worth what you paid for it.

Well said. +1

 

[CRSIII]

DRB, welcome. Stick around, this place gets really interesting sometimes.

Did I mention this place gets really interesting?

 

[appraiser]

I could shoot a 14 year old as easy as a 41 year old. I don't know how much time you have spent with the youth of America, but I assure you a 14 year old who worships the Rap artists that feed them a steady diet of anti social crap music is capable of almost anything.

Look at the recent murder of a 16 year old drug dealer who had 10 large on him when his 13 year old half brother, another 13 year old, and a 20 year old killed him.

age and size are no reason to drop your guard.

Then there is the increasing heroin and meth problem. The people who are desperate for their next fix are not going to care if the lights are on and someone is home, they are going to come in.

 

[Blitz1]

Remember what state we live in now.

What do you think the consequences would be from suprising a stranger w/ a boom from a hidden corner?

I have to disagree here, if someone has broken into my house he is a threat to both myself and my girlfriend, I don't care what his intentions may be.

 

[EddieCoyle]

How are you going to feel if you kill an un-armed 14yr old who has broken into your house while you're home just for the thrill of it? Kids do dumb things nowadays.

Where did I say that I was going to kill anybody? I said I was going to defend myself. However, if someone breaks into my home, while I'm home, and I feel as if my life or the lives of my children are in danger, I will sleep like a baby if I'm successful in my defense, whether the intruder was armed or not.

If you're not ready to defend yourself, you probably should leave your gun locked in the safe.

 

[Navy Moose]

I know this is going to be off topic, and I apologize. When I picked up my Mossberg 590 I asked the guy behind the counter for shells which were good for home defense. He sold me several boxes of Federal Premium Law Enforcement Ammunition 00 buck, 9 pellets. He told me this ammunition is specifically designed not to have a lot of energy behind it so it is less likely to go through the wall. The muzzle velocity is 1145 fps.

Has anyone here used this ammunition or know much about it?

Thank you and I apologize for going off topic.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I know this is going to be off topic, and I apologize. When I picked up my Mossberg 590 I asked the guy behind the counter for shells which were good for home defense. He sold me several boxes of Federal Premium Law Enforcement Ammunition 00 buck, 9 pellets. He told me this ammunition is specifically designed not to have a lot of energy behind it so it is less likely to go through the wall. The muzzle velocity is 1145 fps.

Has anyone here used this ammunition or know much about it?

Thank you and I apologize for going off topic.

That's a reduced velocity, but it's still going to go right through a wall. As others have said, anything powerful enough to be effective on bad guys is going to penetrate a wall. Just be sure you hit the bad guys and don't shoot at a wall with loved ones behind it.

 

[Navy Moose]

Thank you, Sir.

In following the advice here and I'm going start practicing with my 9mm again, and I picked up a big box of birdshot to feed my Mossy to get used to it. I qualified expert pistol in the Navy, but that was a long time ago.

That's a reduced velocity, but it's still going to go right through a wall. As others have said, anything powerful enough to be effective on bad guys is going to penetrate a wall. Just be sure you hit the bad guys and don't shoot at a wall with loved ones behind it.

 

[BOBKATT]

I know this is going to be off topic, and I apologize. When I picked up my Mossberg 590 I asked the guy behind the counter for shells which were good for home defense. He sold me several boxes of Federal Premium Law Enforcement Ammunition 00 buck, 9 pellets. He told me this ammunition is specifically designed not to have a lot of energy behind it so it is less likely to go through the wall. The muzzle velocity is 1145 fps.

Has anyone here used this ammunition or know much about it?

Thank you and I apologize for going off topic.

Can't comment on the velocity factor but I will say that those patterned the absolute best for me out of a 20" cylinder bore mossberg 500. Nice and tight pattern like you want out of a shotgun. Contrary to what people on here believe, you don't want a buckshot pattern where the pellets spread out in a big cirlcle. 'Cause then what happens is you aim center mass and hit everything but.

In following the advice here and I'm going start practicing with my 9mm again, and I picked up a big box of birdshot to feed my Mossy to get used to it.

That's a good start. 12 guage shotguns have some recoil to them but with proper technique and practice you can really start to get a feel for them and the issue of recoil goes away. Remember to practice with your self defense ammo as well and to pattern that so you know what your gun does at different distances.

 

[biff44]

Some discussions about being willing to use lethal force or not. There are implications to the decision. In the people' republic here, you are going to be scrutinized by the DA, and quite likely facing, at the least, a large legal bill.

Bear hunters use one trick. They call bears in, but when one shows up, if it is not the size they want, they sometimes just douse it with a bear-sized can of heavy duty pepper spray. I have not tried it myself, but on the videos the bear goes a-runnin! How about that as an alternative? Pull your handgun and be prepared to fire, but douse the perp with the bear spray first? (notice I did not say use standard issue pepper spray, which would not stop someone high on pcp).

 

[BOBKATT]

Pull your handgun and be prepared to fire, but douse the perp with the bear spray first? (notice I did not say use standard issue pepper spray, which would not stop someone high on pcp).

I almost made a real sarcastic wise-ass remakr, but then I felt bad because I think you were being completely serious about this so I will proceed respectfully:

This is not a plausible solution for a adrenaline influenced thought process with limitless variables and unknowns when your live is at stake and it's dark, you've just woken up, you don't know what the persons intentions are or if they are carrying a weapon, etc.. Introducing more variables will only make the situation more difficult for you to successful make the right decisions.

Case in point:

Did you read the thread about the police officer who was trying to cuff an unarmed man and pulled out his "taser" which was actually his gun and shot and killed the man? Now imagine yourself holding out two items, one is a gun and one is a can. You can't see barely anything, you think someone is in your house and could possibly cause grave harm or death to you and your family. You hear a sudden noise or see a quick movement very close to you.

Your reaction is to squeeze. Squeeze what you think is pepper spay right off the bat because your not as worried about shooting someone with spraw as you are about with a gun. There isn't as many risks that demand you to be well trained and follow strict safety rules to prevent killing someone. So You can just go ahead and spray first right? But which hand did you squeeze? The one with the can or the gun? Did you squeeze both? Now who made the noise? Who or what was behind the wall next to the person who made the noise? Did you properly identify that threat or did you just figure you'll spray the perp because it's not lethal anyway? Did you end up pulling the trigger instead?

Your best bet is training and complete focus. KISS is a must. And the thing that is going to keep you alive is between your ears. Do not give it any more variables than it already has.

 

[mikem317]

I know this is going to be off topic, and I apologize. When I picked up my Mossberg 590 I asked the guy behind the counter for shells which were good for home defense. He sold me several boxes of Federal Premium Law Enforcement Ammunition 00 buck, 9 pellets. He told me this ammunition is specifically designed not to have a lot of energy behind it so it is less likely to go through the wall. The muzzle velocity is 1145 fps.

Has anyone here used this ammunition or know much about it?

Thank you and I apologize for going off topic.

It will penetrate walls.

Nice sig. I guess we could've figured out you got a Mossy 590!

 

[biff44]

I wasn't advocating that. I was just wondering if there was some other non-lethal solution.

I, personally, would feel bad if I took down a 14 y.o. kid. I have kids, and I know they do not use their brains until they are, maybe, 20 years old. I wouldn't turn my back on him or move the signts off, but I might be just as happy if he beat feet.

I have heard some stuff about super-bright flashlights--bright enough to daze the perp. Maybe just enough time to diffuse the situation instead of escalating it. It would be to your advantage too, especially if the perp was armed. Kind of like saying something confusing to him, like "purple coffee" to give you a time advantage.

 

[Navy Moose]

I got a Knoxx SpecOps stock for my new baby, from what my friends tell me, recoil will be reduced by a considerable amount.

The birdshot is to get used to using the weapon, I'll burn through a few boxes of my HD ammo once I'm comfortable with the weapon.

Can't comment on the velocity factor but I will say that those patterned the absolute best for me out of a 20" cylinder bore mossberg 500. Nice and tight pattern like you want out of a shotgun. Contrary to what people on here believe, you don't want a buckshot pattern where the pellets spread out in a big cirlcle. 'Cause then what happens is you aim center mass and hit everything but.



That's a good start. 12 guage shotguns have some recoil to them but with proper technique and practice you can really start to get a feel for them and the issue of recoil goes away. Remember to practice with your self defense ammo as well and to pattern that so you know what your gun does at different distances.

 

[Bob P]

If you are using something like this... especially w/ a good bright flashlight attached to the front, moving around the house is VERY easy and much more confidence inspiring. Especially at night w/ sleepy eyes.

And as someone said above... the simple racking of the shotgun will make poop run down most peoples pant leg.

And on edit: If it comes down to it... you can also use the but end as an effective club if things get desperate!!

I like this one too....

This appears to be the post that caused the majority of the contretemps. In it you imply that your plan is to move from room to room seeking the intruder out and you imply that racking the pump with 'make poop run down most peoples pant leg'

Now if you want to say that we've misinterpreted you point, go ahead - just realize that when several people all form the same misimpression of what you've posted/been posting the communication breakdown is possibly on your part.