Handgun a "BAD" idea for home defense???

[Rate_of_Twist]

I'm currently in process of applying for my LTC with the intent of obtaining a handgun for home defense. In my review of the many posting on this subject I have a few questions.....

1. The two handguns I've focused my interest in are (a.) S&W M&P .40 and (b.) Ruger P345. My interest in the guns are there "safety" features, I guess unlike most I WANT a gun that has a Mag disconnect safety and a ability to disable the gun with a key. Why are the such "hated" features??

2. I have read some posts that have mentioned that a handgun is a BAD home defense gun as the round is likely to penetrate "paper thin walls" and that a 12 ga shot gun would be a "safer gun" for the family being defended? (i.e. not penetrating walls ect... )

Any other suggestions as far as handguns in terms of a home defense weapon?

 

[CRSIII]

A shotgun is a good choice, hell, the sound of a round being chamered is a great deterent to a home invader. As far as hand gun "safety features" go, to each his/her own.
Over penetration is a concern, and thats what subsonic ammo is for.
Good luck.

 

[matt]

DRB, Welcome!

1) Why are they such "hated" features?
Good question. IMO they are generally not helpful, and even dangerous in a way. Mechanical devices fail. Key locks (e.g. the locks on SW revolvers) are known to fail, dropping into the locked position while firing. If you are defending your life when that happens, you'll understand why they are not well liked. Also, they don't meet the "lock" requirement of the state. Third, they are one additional step between the need for your weapon and useful access to your weapon. Some say "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away". I suppose that could be changed to "when seconds count, access to your gun is only a trigger lock key (where is that damn key? I put it RIGHT here! ahh, there it is... steady... get the key in... turn...) and yet ANOTHER key (where is that damn key? I put it right here with the other one... there it is... steady... stop shaking... damn! I dropped it under the bed!!! get the key in... turn...) away."

Mag disconnect: If you drop the mag accidentally (It happens! I do that all the time on the M&P.40, just fits my hand that way - otherwise I'd probably own one) with one in the pipe, you'll want to be able to pull the trigger and have it go bang while you fumble around for the mag.

2) There is much discussion on the subject. Bullets DO go through walls, as does shot gun ammo that's worth a damn. Here's my suggestion. Get a stick ~30" long, shoulder it, and try to move around your house, see what you think.

Last, and certainly NOT LEAST if you follow the basic tenants of firearm safety these devices are not needed. You need to follow these rules regardless of extraneous safety devices.

Matt

 

[Bob P]

I'm currently in process of applying for my LTC with the intent of obtaining a handgun for home defense. In my review of the many posting on this subject I have a few questions.....

1. The two handguns I've focused my interest in are (a.) S&W M&P .40 and (b.) Ruger P345. My interest in the guns are there "safety" features, I guess unlike most I WANT a gun that has a Mag disconnect safety and a ability to disable the gun with a key. Why are the such "hated" features??

2. I have read some posts that have mentioned that a handgun is a BAD home defense gun as the round is likely to penetrate "paper thin walls" and that a 12 ga shot gun would be a "safer gun" for the family being defended? (i.e. not penetrating walls ect... )

Any other suggestions as far as handguns in terms of a home defense weapon?

Many dislike the mag safety for fear it won't disengage when needed. The key lock as it's another step you need to make before you can use it in extremis.

The average handgun round will go through sheetrock - but is unlikely to go all the way through the house and into your neighbors. You need to be aware of what's behind your target if you're shooting. You need to be aware if you're using a shotgun too. 00 buck is basically a bunch .32 balls.

Either will work for home defense both have pluses and minuses. Which are you more likely to practice with? You need to practice and do it often.

 

[Billy2]

I find it is much easier to move around the house with a handgun. Also get your self a good flashlight! Proper target identification is huge but not everyone keeps a light by there hd gun.

 

[RKG]

There are two other disadvantages to a magazine disconnect, which may contribute to the level of endearment:

A) For mechanical reasons, they tend to interfere with a crisp trigger release.

B) Pistols with magazine disconnects generally will not drop an empty magazine by gravity, thus interfering with a speedy tactical reload.

If you believe that a magazine disconnect diminishes your need for secure storage and safe handling, I suggest a bit more research. There is no exemption from the Massachusetts storage rules for pistols with magazine disconnects, and anyone who would tread a magazine-disconnect-equipped pistol with a loaded chamber but removed magazine as now inherently "safe" (i.e., incapable of firing under any circumstances) places far too much faith in a small piece of steel and a small spring.

Historically, the primary advocates of magazine disconnects are uniformed police officers, influenced by reports of officers who, on the verge of losing their pistol to a bad guy, managed to push the magazine release and get the magazine to drop just far enough that, when the bad guy aimed at the officer and pulled the trigger, nothing happened.

 

[paracarry]

I use a Sig P239 in 40 S&W with Crimson Trace grips for my house gun. Something about that dot shining on you will make you want to leave the house. I keep a small tactical light handy also. I have both of the guns you are thinking of buying both are very reliable. the mag disconnect isn't a big issue in my opinion, If it is for you, a revolver works great. I use them periodically also. And you can't beat a shotgun just a little awkward in close quarters. Hope this helps. Just another decision you yourself have to make as a gun owner. Good Luck Dave.

 

[economist]

1. The two handguns I've focused my interest in are (a.) S&W M&P .40 and (b.) Ruger P345. My interest in the guns are there "safety" features, I guess unlike most I WANT a gun that has a Mag disconnect safety and a ability to disable the gun with a key. Why are the such "hated" features??

2. I have read some posts that have mentioned that a handgun is a BAD home defense gun as the round is likely to penetrate "paper thin walls" and that a 12 ga shot gun would be a "safer gun" for the family being defended? (i.e. not penetrating walls ect... )

Any other suggestions as far as handguns in terms of a home defense weapon?

Just about any round that reliably penetrates enough to be effective defensively will penetrate several sheets of wallboard. Take a look at The Box O' Truth for examples. Bottom line: if you really end up shooting at someone, don't count on an interior wall to stop a decent defensive round, particularly if you miss. Exterior walls may be only marginally better, depending on the construction material.

In Massachusetts, I think that storage requirements favor a handgun for home defense. There are several handgun safes out there that open with a quick code entry or fingerprint. You can stash a few of these in places throughout your home. This is inferior to having the gun more readily accessible, but is better than a shotgun locked in a safe in the basement or bedroom.

 

[appraiser]

If you are proficient with a handgun, and are damn sure what is on the other side of the walls when you pull the trigger it is one thing.

If you are new to the game, and live with a lot of people in the house, or are living in a duplex, apartment or condo, letting handgun rounds loose in confined areas with paper thin walls risks the chance a round will penetrate a wall and hit someone on the other side that was not your intended target.

The chances of 00 buck going through a wall and killing someone on the other side is a lot less than most handgun rounds. That is one reason why I advocate that people use shotguns, unless they are proficient with a handgun, in stress situations. That and the aim on a shotgun is a little less forgiving, but not much, you still need to be able to get on target , shoot, hit, and reacquire the bad guy and get a second shot off. The ability to keep control of the gun and get the second shot off is why many people don't like pistol gripped shotguns, they can be a bit hard to handle if you are not used to them.

I have as my SHTF gun, a Glock with a Crimson Trace Laser, target sights, and a M3X tactical light mounted on the rail. I also keep a shotgun with 00 buckshot tucked away in a safe spot in case I need it.

Shoot what you are comfortable and proficient with, the basics still apply

Know what you are shooting at, know what is behind what you are shooting at, and make sure you hit what you are shooting at.

Don't be afraid to take a course or 2 or 3 at your local range, or from one of our many fine instructors.

 

[-kj-]

Get a stick ~30" long, shoulder it, and try to move around your house, see what you think.

I find it is much easier to move around the house with a handgun. Also get your self a good flashlight! Proper target identification is huge but not everyone keeps a light by there hd gun.

If you are using something like this... especially w/ a good bright flashlight attached to the front, moving around the house is VERY easy and much more confidence inspiring. Especially at night w/ sleepy eyes.

And as someone said above... the simple racking of the shotgun will make poop run down most peoples pant leg.

And on edit: If it comes down to it... you can also use the but end as an effective club if things get desperate!!

I like this one too....

 

[type911]

If you follow the basics...Why do you need an external safety? Your finger should never be on the trigger until the decision to shoot has been made.

Magazine safety.....

Ok. You are upstairs looking down at a guy that wants to shoot you. You fire 9 rounds and miss. You are smart though. You don't completely empty the weapon. You leave one in the chamber while you drop your empty at the same time the perp comes up to shoot you. You have one in the chamber and a magazine about to be inserted. He is now ontop of you. You squeeze the trigger but the mag safety prevents you from firing. Now your dead.

Yes a little dramatic. Why there is such a thing as a magazine safety is beyond me. When you are being shot at. and your adrenaline is at peak production and fractions of seconds count....Fumbling with any kind of external safety is what will get you killed. Be smart. Keep your finger of the trigger until you decide to fire. And guess what. You will never have an unintentional or Negligent discharge.

What it comes down to is. When put in a life or death situation and the adrenaline is pumping, you do not have the time to play with a key or external safeties.

 

[-kj-]

If you follow the basics...Why do you need an external safety? Your finger should never be on the trigger until the decision to shoot has been made.

Magazine safety.....

Ok. You are upstairs looking down at a guy that wants to shoot you. You fire 9 rounds and miss. You are smart though. You don't completely empty the weapon. You leave one in the chamber while you drop your empty at the same time the perp comes up to shoot you. You have one in the chamber and a magazine about to be inserted. He is now ontop of you. You squeeze the trigger but the mag safety prevents you from firing. Now your dead.

Yes a little dramatic. Why there is such a thing as a magazine safety is beyond me. When you are being shot at. and your adrenaline is at peak production and fractions of seconds count....Fumbling with any kind of external safety is what will get you killed. Be smart. Keep your finger of the trigger until you decide to fire. And guess what. You will never have an unintentional or Negligent discharge.

What it comes down to is. When put in a life or death situation and the adrenaline is pumping, you do not have the time to play with a key or external safeties.

and this is why my second choice (aside from the mossberg 500) is a simple no-nonsense GLOCK.

 

[trophygrl]

we have a mossy JIC- - it is crazy with a pistol grip

if you want to be able to use your hands, stick with a hand gun -- i like the glock

(i am a girl, so it might be different for you)

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

WOW, you guys rule... thanks for all the ideas.

heres my reasoning FOR liking the safety features.

Mag disconnect and Internal Lock. My reasons for wanting a firearm are to protect my recently expanded family ( well, not that recent my twins are 1 1/2 now ) and the only thing worse than a "Bad Guy" hurting them is something I've brought into the house hurting them. My original thought was that I would be able to completely disable the gun when not in my presence for storage, and transport. My logic with a mag disconnect was to be able to render the firearm essentially useless if lost from my possession in a engagement. My thought is that living in a small house in close proximity to neighborers that an engagement would be very unlikely to last more than 8 rounds fired ( also noting dog and security measures would most likely have me position in high ground at the top of the stairs while waiting for police to arrive.

I do plan on owning a 12 ga, but more for when I'm staying up north in vt. My house in MA being very small ( 1050 sq ft on 2 floors so a long gun, even just a pistol grip I thought would be to "slow"

I say all this not to disagree or argue with all the responses, only to show my current thoughts. I GREATLY appreciate the advise and thoughts, as I came here searching for advice from REAL gun owners so that I may make a more educated decision

p.s. thanks for dealing with my "newbie" questions....

 

[Chuck Would]

If you are planning on sitting in your bedroom, cell phone at your side, waiting for the police to respond, by all means use a shotgun. If you're planning on going room to room with a flashlight to find the cause of the noise that woke you, plan on a handgun.

A shotgun - even with an 18" barrel and a pistol grip - is too easily taken from you as you go through a doorway.

 

[CRSIII]

DRB, welcome. Stick around, this place gets really interesting sometimes.

 

[BOBKATT]

I think everyone already nailed the question on why not to get the safeties, and I agree with them. That said I believe you should have a handgun and a shotgun. Handgun is quick, light, small, concealeable, you can put a light on some of them, and it is almost as easy to move around with as if you didn't have one. Shotgun for when SHTF or you know that bad guy is already in your home.

Here is where I disagree with the other posters on the shotgun: Racking the slide to scare bad guy should never cross your mind as a self defense technique. If you arm yourself and chamber a round it should only be with the mindset that you are going to have to shoot someone to defend your home, and should be noted that you now gave away your position to the bad guy. Now he knows you are armed and he is going to be ready to shoot you right away if he has a gun as well. I'm not saying do not chamber a round until you are going to make the shot, I am only saying that the idea of chambering a round to scare someone in my opinion is putting you in the wrong fighting mindset and is putting you at a tactical disadvantage right away.

And the second thing with a shotgun in my opinion is get one with a stock. Most of us can't hit shit on the first shot with a pistol grip shotgun nevermind trying to make a follow up shot. And second of all, if your shooting at someone in your own house it is because you and your family will lose their lives if you don't make that shot. So do yourself a favor and make sure you make the shot, put a stock on it and aim the damn thing. Yes a pistol grip will make it more maneuverable. But not by much at all if you properly train with your gun.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

If you follow the basics...Why do you need an external safety? Your finger should never be on the trigger until the decision to shoot has been made.

Magazine safety.....

Ok. You are upstairs looking down at a guy that wants to shoot you. You fire 9 rounds and miss. You are smart though. You don't completely empty the weapon. You leave one in the chamber while you drop your empty at the same time the perp comes up to shoot you. You have one in the chamber and a magazine about to be inserted. He is now ontop of you. You squeeze the trigger but the mag safety prevents you from firing. Now your dead.

Yes a little dramatic. Why there is such a thing as a magazine safety is beyond me. When you are being shot at. and your adrenaline is at peak production and fractions of seconds count....Fumbling with any kind of external safety is what will get you killed. Be smart. Keep your finger of the trigger until you decide to fire. And guess what. You will never have an unintentional or Negligent discharge.

What it comes down to is. When put in a life or death situation and the adrenaline is pumping, you do not have the time to play with a key or external safeties.

Just one point to this posting, Isnt the S&W M&P in use (with all of its debatable "safety" features ) in use by police depts?

 

[-kj-]

If you are planning on sitting in your bedroom, cell phone at your side, waiting for the police to respond

,

Which is absolutely what you should be doing if you KNOW that there is a stranger in your house.

If you're planning on going room to room with a flashlight to find the cause of the noise that woke you, plan on a handgun.

A shotgun - even with an 18" barrel and a pistol grip - is too easily taken from you as you go through a doorway.

Never hurts to have the handgun in your waist band "just in case"

 

[Jose]

WOW, you guys rule... thanks for all the ideas.

heres my reasoning FOR liking the safety features.

Mag disconnect and Internal Lock. My reasons for wanting a firearm are to protect my recently expanded family ( well, not that recent my twins are 1 1/2 now ) and the only thing worse than a "Bad Guy" hurting them is something I've brought into the house hurting them. My original thought was that I would be able to completely disable the gun when not in my presence for storage, and transport. My logic with a mag disconnect was to be able to render the firearm essentially useless if lost from my possession in a engagement. My thought is that living in a small house in close proximity to neighborers that an engagement would be very unlikely to last more than 8 rounds fired ( also noting dog and security measures would most likely have me position in high ground at the top of the stairs while waiting for police to arrive.....

As has been said, internal gun locks do not meet your state's safe storage requirements. So if your pistol is stored in a safe (as your laws require) what good does it do you to have a lock that has been proven to fail?

Again, if your pistol is stored in a legal manner for MA, what purpose does having a mag disconnect serve? Once the gun is out of the safe, it is so because you need it and need it badly.

If losing control of your pistol in a fight is a concern, then get some training on weapon retention and foiling disarms. Better yet, make your shots count to stop your attacker before he gets to you.

 

[Jose]

B) Pistols with magazine disconnects generally will not drop an empty magazine by gravity, thus interfering with a speedy tactical reload.

Not so. The Browning/FN High Power is the only one like that, and it is so because of the magazine/magwell design. If you take off the magazine disconnect from a HP, the mags still will not drop free unless you get the mags with the little "mousetrap" looking lever.

ALL S&W 3rd generation handguns came with magazine disconnects and they ALL spit out their magazines like they are poison.

 

[-kj-]

[

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

Remember the majority of home defense conflicts are within what is it... 10-20ft range at most?

It would be nearly impossible to be at more than 15ft within my house....

 

[Prepper]

Personally I'd go with the handgun unless you are out in a rural area. I would be concerned about the damage the shotgun will cause to my house and belongings (and perhaps neighbor's houses for whatever exits the wall). I realize the life and death situation at hand is infinitely more important, but still... if I have any say in it, I'd rather have 1 hole to patch instead of a mess (in addition to the bloody mess that may be laying on my carpet.) Plus, less chance of collateral damage from 1 bullet than a whole pile of them.

A laser is a terrific addition to the handgun. Of course, still know the iron sights just in case, but the laser makes it very easy to keep your eyes on the bad guy (rather than your front sight) while simultaneously being successfully targeted. If he moves, it is easy to get the dot back on him quickly. Plus, it'll provide extra intimidation... "Yes this gun REALLY IS pointed at you, let your hope vanish that I might miss". I practice at home (unloaded of course) acquiring targets in the room and then quickly acquiring alternate targets (pretending that the bad guy just moved quickly). It also helps if you have a cat running around that you can target.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

So a general consensus is that the two handguns that I have identified as possible candidate may not be suitable based upon there extra "safety" features. So although I'm not completely deterred from those two guns what would everyone recomend as a home defense handgun? I need to keep it in the $500ish price range ( its REALLY F-in expensive to get into this!!!!) Is there anyway to go about "testing" guns out before purchase, as I'd hate to buy something only to find I've made a big mistake...

drb

 

[Prepper]

The S&W MP (9mm) is my go-to gun at home; don't discount it yet.

You're in MA, so when you buy it, you'll discover that the trigger pull will vary from bad to really bad. So, you'll need to get a trigger job (search this forum for Greg Derr). While getting that trigger job, have the guy remove the magazine disabling thingy too.

I bought mine at Four Seasons and it didn't have that magazine safety thing, so you should be able to buy one without it as well.

 

[JonJ]

ALL S&W 3rd generation handguns came with magazine disconnects and they ALL spit out their magazines like they are poison.

+1 I've never had a mag fail to drop out of my 4043 and never seen that happen with anyone else's at quals. My FS M&P drops them right out as well.

 

[-kj-]

Me: "hey criminal... can ya move over to the left... I don't wanna hit my new tv when I shoot you right now... wait... no, no, a little to the right, I don't wanna graze the new leather couch".



Idk... I'd rather have the confidence of not having to put my contacts in and aim under a high pressure situation. If there's some stranger in my home that I don't know of his intentions... I couldn't care less what material objects get destroyed in the process of protecting my family and myself.

You can always replace a tv.... a life of a family member on the other hand?

 

[-kj-]

$500ish price range
drb

The shorty mossy I posted on the 1st page is only $379.

Ok... I'm finished. Sorry!

 

[matt]

So a general consensus is that the two handguns that I have identified as possible candidate may not be suitable based upon there extra "safety" features. So although I'm not completely deterred from those two guns what would everyone recomend as a home defense handgun? I need to keep it in the $500ish price range ( its REALLY F-in expensive to get into this!!!!) Is there anyway to go about "testing" guns out before purchase, as I'd hate to buy something only to find I've made a big mistake...

drb

I would not go that far. Both are fine firearms. Many here have the M&P in one caliber or another (speaking of money, you'll want to send out your brand new firearm to get it fixed - trigger job). Are there other firearms that I'd pick first? yes, but that's ok.

Regarding spending money:
1) Used SIG or S&W pistols and revolvers (among others) can be a real deal. Don't be too afraid of that, especially if you go to a reputable dealer.
2) Once you've bought your first gun, remember it is just that: your first. It won't be your last. You'll buy more, and soon you'll know what we mean when we say we have a bad case of "gas".

Matt