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CMP Releases 2019 Rulebooks....

Discussion in 'Mil Surp Collectors' started by dw617, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Same reason why dw617s A1 clone would be DQ for cmp service rifle. ? All very confusing
    Like i said before maybe the cmp is trying to get MM to actually be modern or some what ad the M4 pushes 15 years old now.
    So basically it sounds like they dont want 20" barrels in the AR MM ?
    Ok so why no M16a1 A2/A4 M4 classes?
    Im stumped.
     

  2. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    CMP Rules are like New England Weather : You don't like them, wait a few minutes....

    I just loaded up some 52gr noslers over varget, hoping to take the SP1 for a spin tomorrow.
     
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  3. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    cmp news update , only m193 can be used in SP1
     
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  4. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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  5. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    That would work, though the pencil barrel and delta ring attached HG's would require very consistent sling pressure in order to be accurate.

    ***

    My abomination is done.

    [​IMG]

    Had to change front sight to clear new free float HG, otherwise made from the old A2 plus stuff from the parts pile. Using the same old 20" A2 standard weight barrel that CMP insinuated was a problem, but F 'em because it's now 7.3 lbs and does not include anything they specifically prohibit. We'll see how it shoots, eventually.
     
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  6. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    Well, the SP1 goes bang bang. But I am not about to even TRY to sight it in with the horrible 7LB single stage colt trigger, so I just plinked with it. Got an RRA 4.5LB 2 stage incoming.
     
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  7. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    I have what I think is my old RRA trigger, but it's pulling about 5.5 lbs. Nice break, but a little heavy. Needs work.
     
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  8. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Dear CMP-

    Thank you for changing the MM rules (again) so that the competition can be more fair than it was last year. Once I rebuilt my MM rifle to be 2019 compliant, I can see how we will all be shooting the same POS platform with barn door level accuracy:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Iron sights, 100 yards, no spotting scope, snowing, and crappy light conditions. Single shot below and right of group was my first shot on target. I got the elevation right for the remaining shots but mistakenly went the opposite direction for windage. That's what happens when it's dark and as a semi-geezer you forget your reading glasses and spotting scope. Pretty happy with the group and I think this build is more accurate than its previous rendition with a scope and non free float upper.

    Overall this build illustrates how the new rules didn't eliminate equipment advantages- they just shift the advantage in a different direction. Same Criterion A2 20" barrel is more accurate once free floated. Comes in at 7.3 lbs in this configuration. Regarding the skeleton stock- yeah, I could use a lightweight BCG and somewhat stripped A2 or an A1 butt stock and still make weight. I want to roll with this one as I saw many non-standard butt stocks at Vermont. If they want to DQ me from MM and put this rifle in UMM, they'll have to DQ all the others that do not have an exact copy of an A2/A1 or M4 butt stock. The alternative front sight is right in line with the new rules that allow such modifications. Same for the free float hand guard.

    That bigger snowflake in the target pic at first looked like a perfect Star of David until it started to melt- wish I was quicker with the camera.
     
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  9. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    It’s finny I feel like cmp rules committee believed no one would make weight with a free float set up.
    Now if they wanted to be challenging for MM they should have said 7.5lbs
    No free float

    I have been to lazy to strip and weigh my AR parts to try and build the lightest MM 1 can.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  10. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    I don't know what they were thinking, but they clearly didn't think this one through. Essentially they have created a new configuration that is potentially more dominant than whatever they thought was making the old rules unfair. IMHO, free float A2 weight match barrel + iron sights > non free float same barrel + scope. If I can pop out a group like above in shitty light with no spotting scope, somebody good is going to wear out the X-ring.

    The only thing they could bounce me over would be the butt stock if they pulled that 'spirit of the competition' bullcrap. IMO they have already destroyed the spirit of the competition by allowing free floats. I could replace the butt stock with a M4 stock and maybe swap in a lightweight bolt carrier if necessary. I still have the heavy ass carry handle knobs which are huge and made of steel. Swapping those for nuts will shed some weight. For now I'll just enjoy my 'spite' build.
     
  11. Matt-CZ

    Matt-CZ NES Member

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    Since there happens to be a lot of CMP pros in this thread, let me ask a dumb question:

    What exactly is the difference between EIC matches and CMP games matches. I know there are different classes for the types of rifles, but what is the broader difference? Are the courses of fire different? Are EIC the only ones you can earn leg points? Are the Games matches only for fun/bragging rights? The upcoming NE games in Vermont have both available for registration.

    If I am reading the rules right, an A2 clone that is overweight for MM A class could qualify as an EIC "M16", being a commerical equivalent.

    I ask this because my 7lb 10oz Colt Sporter Target, which is about as close to an M16A2 as I can get without enlisting, is too heavy for MM A class.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  12. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    CMP SERVICE RIFLE/EIC for all accounts is NRA high power/service rifle. With some rules not being consistent between the 2.
    Games are just that. 100-200 yard. With the different classes.
    Your sporter A2 would pass EIC/NRA high power service rifle no problem.
    You A2 is over weight for CMP games MM so you would be bumped into Unlimitted MM.
    Fun stuff
    I recommend printing out all 3 rule books.
    Go through them and see the differences.
    Then see what rifles you have that might pass.
     
  13. Matt-CZ

    Matt-CZ NES Member

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    Thanks for the clarification. I'm not planning to attend any of the big matches anytime soon, so strict compliance isn't really a problem for me at this time. I'm sure I could shave off the extra weight on my rifle if I should that be necessary in the future.
     
  14. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    I think yours would have the heavy barrel (H-bar), which generally puts you in either Unlimited Modern Military for 'Games' or it can be used in the EIC match. Is the twist rate 1:7? That would be great for heavier projectiles- at least 69 grain, 77 grain, and even 80's if single loading. Should be a good rifle for EIC.

    Games are all at 200 yards. Typically slow prone 5 sighters + 10 for score, rapid prone 10 shots, slow off-hand (standing) 10 shots.

    EIC has no sighters. Start at 200 yards 10 shots offhand, then 10 shots rapid sitting. Move to 300 yards for prone rapid, 10 shots. Last round is 20 shots slow prone at 600 yards. You have to know your come-ups for the various distances and you have to know how to adjust for varying crosswinds. You'll want some practice at 600 with your rifle and chosen ammo before showing up at a match.

    I highly recommend coming to Pembroke for the CMP Games matches. You can get some coaching for position shooting and learn the ropes for Games. Somewhat regularly folks will show up with their 'out of competition' AR's and shoot them anyway. Still get bragging rights, just no medals. The club M1 Garands are tack drivers and for ~$35 you can buy ammo for them and shoot both a M1 and your AR.

    Vermont is pretty awesome- I highly recommend going.
     
  15. Matt-CZ

    Matt-CZ NES Member

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    It's an A2 profile barrel, as far as I can tell. Not as thick as the colt H-Bars, but not a pencil gov't profile like the older SP's or the A1. 1:7 twist. I was using a cheap kitchen scale to weigh it, so maybe it's not accurate. Sources online put its weight at exactly 7.5 lbs.

    Planning to get out to Pembroke to do some 200 yard shooting this year, so far I've only done the reduced 100 yard targets, but I've been making steady improvement. Still a long way to go. Vermont would be fun, but I doubt I'll be getting much 600 yard range time to practice dealing with the wind. I'm not aware of anyplace near the South Shore you can do that kind of shooting.
     
  16. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Specs are 7.5 and your scale was close- if not a full blown H-bar none of us are going to bump you out of regular MM at Pembroke.
     
  17. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Reading Rifle runs NRA Highpower all summer. 200-300-600 80 shot match. They will let you shoot out if comp if your rifle happens to not fall under rules of match.
    A warning though: If you can’t keep your shots on paper they will pull you from the line. Don’t fret though the paper is big like 76”
    I’m going to try and get out there a few times this year. I only got out 2 times in 3 years. Just to busy and my life/shooting schedule always conflict!
     
  18. Matt-CZ

    Matt-CZ NES Member

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    Thanks. That'll give me something to work towards. Do you know if these matches are open to non-members?
     
  19. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    All NRA and CMP sanctioned matches are open to public.
    Only issue is The “match” shooters get dibs on the line.
    Example if it’s a service rifle match and you show up with a non match legal rifle you only can shoot if they have room on the relays. It’s rare to get turned away you may have to shoot the last relay but you will shoot.
     
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  20. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    His Colt should be GTG.
     
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  21. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    The first time I showed up to Reading all I had for data was a solid 200 yard zero. Beyond that, I had a notebook with the known comeups for 2-3 & 3-6 and also 77 grain ammo. So it can be done. I burned a match or two just finding and confirming my zeros. The Colt A2 wouldn't be my first choice for shooting CMP/NRA service rifle with, but it's definitely do-able. It wouldn't be too hard to build an SR for the future, you could even keep your existing lower and just swap between a White Oak upper and your A2 Colt upper and remove/add the buttstock weight. Trigger would be the same.
     
  22. millbilly

    millbilly NES Member

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    My WOA A4 ordered on black Friday has finally shipped!
     
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  23. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    also i believe reading requires 69 grain or heavier ? I dont think they allow greetip either? Not that you want to shoot that crap for score.

    the fun part is basic come ups work to get you close enough.
    2,3,12= from a 100 yard zero +2min
    200-300 +3min , 300-600 +12min

    the more you know about your ammo and rifle the better. Heck just the change in light at the range can toss my zero of a few min.
     
  24. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    No 55 or 62 gr at 600, but why would you anyways?

    The comeups will get you at least on paper.... From memory, my 3-600 yard comeup was only 10 minutes or so. Towards the end of the season as my barrel wore out I had to add another minute of elevation to 600. It's all written down in my book. I have a new barrel this year so I get to start fresh.
     
  25. Matt-CZ

    Matt-CZ NES Member

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    What kind of round count are you getting before barrel swap?
     
  26. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    3000+
     
  27. Matt-CZ

    Matt-CZ NES Member

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    Where were a couple months ago when I bought a thousand rounds of M855 ;) Wasn't until after I got it that i learned that most consider it worse than pretty much everything out there at the same price. Whoopsie. Maybe 600 rounds left to go.

    Sad thing is, I don't shoot well enough to notice the difference. You never know when you might need to punch through a Russian helmet on short notice.
     
  28. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    For 200 yards and in wolf gold is the cheapest bestest stuff for general plonking and practice and decent scores also. I scored a 279/300 with wolf gold off hand kills my score no matter what ammo I use!

    M855 ain’t “bad” there’s just cheaper ammo that is better IMHO

    Remeber this game has a 6 min black bull. Keep them in the black and your doing well.
    For me it’s not my groups that are bad but where I put them on the target.!

    Like mountains group a few post ago, absolutely great group but deep into the 9ring , at that point even some one shooting 3 moa would beat a 1moa group in the 9 ring if they put them in the 3.19 moa 10 ring.
    See it’s not hard at all, although if you use a now if you use a MR-31 at 100 yards you need to get down into the sub 2moa skills and ammo as it reduces the scoring rings to make up for lack of distance and wind at 600?
    Also why cmp games just used the SR target at 200 for everything. Keeps the scores up and no need for clubs to have all different targets.
    Try a MR-52 at 200 yards the 10 ring is 1.8 minutes.
     
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  29. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    OK Just came back from range with my SP1. Made up 30 rounds last night.

    Took about 20 rounds to walk it in the 10 ring and get use to the rifle a little bit. Adjusting the A1 style sights is a pain in the ass. Shooting SR-1 at 100 yards.

    I opted to use the web sling instead of a leather sling.


    View: https://i.imgur.com/uPi5veq.jpg


    I had 10 rounds left for the Winter Match, but one of the rounds got smashed while I was single loading it and I felt it was unsafe to shoot. So there is only 9 on paper. That 8 was me being a dumb ass, too.



    View: https://i.imgur.com/qGkxd4n.jpg
     
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  30. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Nice!

    Looks like a little vertical stringing? In my case, that's usually my bad. Perhaps sling tension? Horizontal spread is pretty damn good.

    When building up something new or with a recent purchase I use the laser cartridges to get me close. I have a couple cheap ones from Amazon for .30-06 and .223. I'll hold the .30-06 in a .308 and it seems to work well enough. Usually only a couple shots to be on center.
     

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