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CMP Releases 2019 Rulebooks....

Discussion in 'Mil Surp Collectors' started by dw617, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    Perusing the 2019 rulebooks and looking at the changes from last year:

    "For 2019, after much debate and inputs from many, the CMP decided to return the first Modern Military Rifle Class to its original rules as a Standard Modern Military Rifle and to establish a separate Unlimited Modern Military Rifle Class. The Standard Modern Military Rifle will go back to its original 7.5 lbs. weight limit for AR-type rifles and 9.0 lbs. for M1As. Standard Modern Military Rifles will be restricted to metallic sights only. Rifles that weigh more than 7.5 lbs. or 9.0 lbs. or that have optical sights will now be in the Unlimited Modern Military Rifle Class. Restrictions against float tubes or metallic sights with finer adjustments were removed for both classes. "

    Weight changes, and no more optics for Std MM.

    So, anyone ever weigh their Bula M14 w/ MW barrel.....


    Change log here : CMP Releases 2019 Competition Rules - Civilian Marksmanship Program
     
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  2. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Funny feeling my AR or M1a might not cut weight?
    Looks like UMM might become very popular.
     
  3. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    Probably..... UMM

    5.2.5 Unlimited Modern Military Rifle An Unlimited Modern Military Rifle is a Class A AR-type rifle that does not fully comply with Rule 5.2.3 (weight limit and/or sights) or a Class B Modern Military Rifle that does not fully comply with Rule 5.2.4 (weight limit and/or sights). The following rules apply to Unlimited Modern Military Rifles:

    a) All Unlimited Modern Military Rifles must comply with Rule 5.2.2.
    b) Unlimited Modern Military Rifles may have optical sights (reflective sights are considered optical sights) with a maximum power of 4.5X installed on the receiver. Variable scopes with a maximum of 4.5X are permitted. Only commercially manufactured scopes that were produced with a maximum magnification of 4.5X and have a maximum objective lens diameter of 34 mm may be used. If an optical sight is used, the same optical sight configuration must be used in all stages of a course of fire (changing sights or sight mount configurations is not permitted). The centerline of an optical sight shall be no higher than 3.5 inches above the centerline of the bore; and
    c) Rifle weights are unlimited

    Combining the new MM rule of float tube and UMM rule of no weight limit, it appears I can shoot my AR15 Service Rifle? I wouldn't, but guys who shot MM last year and get "bumped" into UMM have this to complete next to?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  4. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Yeah, at Vermont they bumped me into UMM because the Bula had a NM front sight on it. Shot it there once maybe twice already and they didn't care until last one. Had to compete against lead weighted free float service rifles with optics.

    Was the weight higher than 9.0 for standard M1A's? If they dropped the weight to a lower original value from something higher last year, they will get an earful from Franco as I recall he was ripshit about M1A limits because many if not most USGI fiberglass stocks would put M1A's over the limit.

    Am I reading this correctly that free float is now OK for MM? Also they say finer sight graduations are OK so does that mean that a NM type sight sans the hood is OK? People are already frustrated with CMP rules and consider them to be a big cluster-F, especially when they change. This won't help.

    If I am understanding correctly, CMP has once again created a situation that will give an advantage to those who spend the money to reach the limits of the rules. Ditch the 20" USGI config barrel and delta rings for a heavier but shorter barrel to make weight and use a free float quad rail. Add a 1/4 MO rear sight. My standard config MM upper does shoot better than I do, but it's a far cry from the service rifle upper I built with a Compass Lake barrel. That one shoots groups below 1/2 MOA.

    Haven't shot it yet but I recently slapped together a parts pile upper with a White Oak barrel. If I go with a ultralight buttstock that I have plus an ultralight quad rail maybe it would make weight? Polymer lower for additional weight savings? Cut down the barrel a little? Somehow I feel like making something really fugly yet rule compliant.
     
  5. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    On second thought and after reading the similar thread on the CMP site, I think I'll go ahead and put something together that is as ridiculous as possible but still within the rules of MM. Carbon fiber float tube? Skeletonized upper? I already have an Ace ultra-light butt stock and maybe a polymer lower. Low mass bolt carrier? If necessary to make weight I'll cut down the White Oak barrel as I got it used for short money.

    Kinda pissed about the stupid weight limits and pretty much anyone except non-competitor know-it-all dipshits on the CMP forum are also pissed.
     
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  6. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    I read the rules and just giggle. It must be a cluster f*** at the big matches and regionals.
    Also for a organization that’s supposed to try and get new shooters involved they make it hard.
    I bet the stock I fixed with brass pins and epoxy is s DQ.
    It might be easier if they have just eliminate “mondern” military altogether
    After all most of the rifles models are old as shit.
    They should just have simple classes
    OMM- Old Mondern Military M16 style rifles
    Models following designs aspects of
    A1,A2 and allow detach carry handles
    Max of 8lbs 20” barrels 4.5 triggers. No muzzle brakes
    Then the Not So Old mondern ,M4 class
    Max 16.5” barrel , weight?
    f*** scopes irons only with a scope class .
    Problems arise as to what’s issued these days. See the next gen marines and army are running optics and they are not even close to what the CMP says is legal.
    What CMP is allowing for optics is more like the M1d style scopes. 70 + year old thinking.
    It’s far from mondern

    Good thing is I most likely will never be to a match big enough to matter.
    But it pisses me off. It took me a while to find the “military contour” barrel to build my first MM AR...cluster f*** that was.
     
  7. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Just down loaded the 2019 games rule book

    They already messed up as they don’t even have UMM listed in the match tables fun stuff and there’s folks running this think making north of $100k a year.
     
  8. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    You are right, Mac. Total C-F at the regional games. I can only imagine what it's like at Perry. At Camp Ethan Allen I heard several guys complaining about getting bounced to UMM over stuff that was never bounced before. NM front sights on M1A's was not only my problem- there were other guys that I heard bitch about that. The issue is that the M1A NM front sight is a common part for any rifle coming from 'evil feature ban' states like Mass, NY, and others plus it's just a common part in general. One of the guys complaining said that he had never been bounced at other travel games and not even at a big match in Talladega. Never mind that it's no thinner than common front sights on AR's- ones that will pass CMP inspection. Also it will bounce you to UMM but a scope won't? Lunacy!

    There must be some cranky old turds who have the ear of CMP that are pushing these changes. Either that or the rules committee is populated by baboons on crack.

    I made my MM upper fully compliant with a 20" USGI profile barrel and old school triangular hand guards. Then they allowed scopes, so I found a light enough scope and mount so that it would still make weight. Other than the NM sight screw up, I built the Bula to be 100% compliant with CMP MM rules. The inspector was squawking about the medium weight barrel but the Bula still made weight for 2018 rules and that barrel type was not specifically prohibited. I still need work on awful hand but on my best days I can be competitive enough to give almost anyone a run for the money and the equipment does make a difference for those last few points or X's. If the Bula doesn't make weight not sure what I'll do with that. Not worth putting a scope on it for UMM because I'll just use my service rifle.

    If free float is OK for MM, I'll go that route. Regular delta ring uppers, especially with a 20" USGI barrel, require some finesse with sling pressure to shoot consistently. Use a free float tube and that skill is no longer necessary. I need to figure out if a detachable handle is OK. I don't recall if I have any fixed handle uppers, but if I need one I'll buy a slick side with M4 ramps. If fixed handle required, that will be a PITA as most barrels now have M4 feed ramps and most fixed handle uppers are old style.

    It's like they try to make this shit difficult and confusing so that they can arbitrarily bounce just about anyone they want. This is what makes me want to Frankenstein something together that looks ridiculous, pushes the limits, yet is fully rules compliant. I'm sure I'll have to print a copy of the rules and bring to inspection so they'll have to show me the violation. Of course I'll have them inspect my other rifles first before showing up with the abomination I might build.
     
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  9. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Oh, one more thing that pisses me off...

    To save some bucks and not have to deal w/ removing a welded thread protector, once CMP opened up MM to scopes I just cut down my front sight. If I wanted to use that upper, assuming it would make weight, I'd have to drill or grind out the weld and start all over again with a front sight.

    [banghead]
     
  10. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    Something else I just noticed

    Rapids in MM are 60 seconds (vs 80 for everything else.)

    30 shots, Table 3, or 50 shots, Table 4 (with 60 sec. rapid-fire times)
     
  11. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    F it just cut the barrel off behind the threads, if I where to go to the travel games or Perry I would hack off the RRA military style muzzle brake as it’s a DQ anyway. I just might do it anyway. I figure maybe cut it off get a nice recessed crown but then bugger up the outer ends and when asked WTF is up with that I will answer in a awful fake half assed boston/southetncombo accent with out my teeth in. Ah wellll needs to makes weight and I had onez of them there muzzell erestors on there. I mean ya know like WTF, house them apples (insert middle finger here, could not find middle finger imoji)

    View: https://youtu.be/oNGExDv4MHg
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  12. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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  13. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    GI parts build, 9.5 lbs - do you have MW or Standard profile barrel?
     
  14. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Does the RockOla have a GI profile barrel? Based on your weights and some posts on the CMP forum, looks like a 9.0 lb M14 / M1A will be a rare exception. Ridiculous that the AR limit is 7.0- same story for other posts that most AR's in standard USGI specs are going to be ~7.6 lbs. My MM AR is a bit under 8.0 with the scope (very light weight Leupold). If I remove the scope and mount then install irons, NFW will it be 7.0 lbs or less.

    Thought I'd make a USGI exact spec M14 rifle from the kit I have and use the restored USGI stock that my medium weight Bula sits in now. Bula NM med wt barrel would go into a McMillan stock or the like. After seeing that 9.0 or less is probably impossible, F-it. What I think the reality will be is that standard weight barreled M1A's won't get weighed. If the inspector sees a NM weight barrel and deems it UMM, the rifle will be weighed and of course won't make weight for MM in case the owner protests the UMM designation.

    If you win and someone whines, your MM will now be weighed and you'll get the DQ. What are the chances that some douchebag who knows his AR is somehow 7.0 or under will protest when he does not win. Winning score could be zero if everyone else DQ's.

    There's an email address or two for rules related issues. Looks like I'll be sending a very critical email to them. I suggest we all do that, assuming you have a problem with the new rules.
     
  15. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    No its a medium weight , pretty sure anyway. O well f*** it. You guys can DQ me at pembroke thats only place im likely shooting anyway. Might as well full bed the thing now and get a hooded sight and such.

    Maybe I will start with cutting down the muzzle brake. Bore out some wood in the butt. Do you think barrel harmonics will get FUBAR if I take some meat off with a grinder?
     
  16. Hardwired

    Hardwired NES Member

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    They actually weigh your rifle like pee wee football?
    1oz over, sorry. Oh wait just pulled the butplate, try it again.
     
  17. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Never at a local match. Regional / Travel games they typically don't but will do it if someone complains or if the rifle is obviously heavy in the inspectors hands. I don't know about nationals at Perry as far as weighing at check in goes, but they will re-check winners' rifles and I'm sure those will be weighed.

    If you are going to make the road trip to one of the big matches, you don't want to get a DQ for something like weight. Yeah, you could pull a buttplate and try again. Same thing for trigger pull- if too light you can work on it and get another inspection as many times as you need. The issue is that their limits are ludicrous because most equipment in standard configuration is going to be over weight.
     
  18. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Also not really based on modern available equipment. Try ordering a A2 with a pencil thin government profile barrel.
    Reminds me I don’t think cmp rules department ever sent me the mil spec drawing number of which barrel they where thinking about back when MM AR needed a government profile barrel?
     
  19. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Significant discussion in the CMP Rules forum but no input from the CMP. I was shocked to see how many times CMP has bounced the weight limits up and down since ~2013. Our favorite Italian armorer's comments are sure to be colorful.

    Really thinking about building a compliant by the rules (but not in spirit) rifle for this. If I go nuts with weight savings for everything else maybe I won't have to cut down my spare service rifle barrel. I'll play around with some components this weekend when the weather is crap unless I go shooting to defy the weather.
     
  20. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    From a CMP press release:

    It was never our intent for this match to become dominated by “match” AR’s with exorbitantly expensive optics. The 2019 rules represent an effort to correct this oversight, restoring the original intent and diversity of competition for the Standard Modern Military Match classification. Ridiculous. at 200 yards an 'exorbitantly expensive' max 4.5X optic doesn't amount to squat vs. a decently made optic at a moderate price. Also meeting the 8.0 lb weight limit ruled out a lot of scopes. Optics have nothing to do the the 'equipment race'. They did level the field between younger and older eyes.
    The second significant change to the 2019 rules pertains to general limitations on “accurizing”. The original general restriction on accurizing was again intended to prevent a firearm built to competition Service Rifle Specifications and limit the potential for the Modern Military Match to devolve into another equipment race. Uh, no. Standard A2 barrel and delta ring mounted hand guard limited what you could do, and there was no escaping from sensitivity to sling tension. Fat barrel 16" carbines were what created the 'equipment race'. Inadvertently, this ban limited participation of the commonly available firearms which were within the match’s original design. It was brought to our attention that commonly available and inexpensive AR type rifles are sold with attributes (float tubes LOL I thought this was about fairness and not spending money , alternate Sights, etc) which would prevent them from competing due to the accurizing ban. Since the 2019 reversion to the previous weight limit of 7.5 lbs (AR) will eliminate the possibility of competing with a Service Rifle therefore eliminating A2 with 20” barrels. OK, thanks for banning the most common platform that met your rules and the spirit of the rules. This will promote a competition with pencil barrels Yeah no thanks and m4 clones Back to the short match barrel equipment race which is inline with the original intent and spirit of the competition. Fail
    In the interest if inclusivity and simplicity of enforcement, the 2019 rules relax any additional restrictions regarding accurizing beyond the clearly defined position on optics and overall weight. And therefore sets up an even more challenging and expensive equipment race.

    So now, just a couple months after I was bounced into UMM, National Match front sights are OK on M1A's?
     
  21. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    Dont be to sure on the NM sights or anything else stamped NM. Complete FU on cmp part. I can only quess the rule makers are not shooters or did not go out and actually do a study on what the commercial market of A2 weighs.
    So it looks as if as long as I have A2 style sights and cut 7.5lbs or less i can get a heavy barrel and free float on my modern military.
    Oh is the 308 M1 garand still MM legal?
     
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  22. 76Too

    76Too NES Member

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    So it looks like my standard weight Criterion barrel Fulton Armory m14 build might be ok (weighed in at exactly 9lbs in 'loaded' stock i have sitting around) and will just put it in the USGI walnut I have somewhere, but I might want to build a pooosay gun too now just to have fun with it. Like Mountain said, maybe paint it pink leopard print or just drill a bunch of holes in unnecessary places and spray paint the weight of 7.499lbs on the swiss cheese butt stock.

    For now it looks like i'll have something to 'compete' with (aforementioned M14 build that's still in process but can be ready to shoot soon minus cosmetic stuff) and I might just wait until the rules settle a little bit to see if I should even spend any money if they're just going to change them around again before match season starts. I'd like to be able to run an A2 variant of sorts because it's what I learned to shoot at boot camp in 2011 (never shot a real rifle before then, and if you ask our favourite guinea, i still hadn't shot a 'real' rifle) and I know I could at least do OK with it.

    Funny...last October I shot 'Range High Score (242/250)' out of over 150 Marines at Fort Devens (annual Table 1 qualification 200,300 & 500 yds), but I still can't touch any of you guys at Pembroke :/ Though not exactly sure if that's a compliment to you or a black eye for the Marine Corps Marksmanship Training Program :D

    Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how this all shakes out...I haven't seen the CMP forum (or threads here on similar issues) get so much traction since I got involved in the matches, and I'm curious to see if CMP will 'adjust fire' so to speak, or if they'll 'stick to their guns'...hahaahahahahahahhahaha...puns

    When it boils down to it, I really just like watching Mac's home movies and listening to that thick as molasses bawstin accent, and listening to the guinea complain in EnglItalian at the matches...being competitive with you guys isn't really in the cards for me yet...yet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
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  23. majspud

    majspud NES Life Member NES Member

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    Makes me wonder .... does a CMP Garand straight from the shipping case even qualify?o_O

    t
     
  24. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    No changes to the JCG match. It’s the Modern Military rules that are defining an entirely new level of FUBAR.

    Yeah I’m going to have to find some super obnoxious hydro dip for my protest rifle. Or maybe paint like the Frenchy yellow vests?
     
  25. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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    Can someone point me to exactly where the weight limits for service rifle AR/M1A/M1 are?

    Maybe I'm being blind, but I can't see any reference to weight in 4.1.1, 4.1.2, 4.1.3, or 4.1.4 (other than trigger pull) and in 4.1.5.e it only says "weight is unlimited"

    My reading says my 13lb A2 AR with a free-float tube meets the requirements of 4.1.1

    What am I missing?
     
  26. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    For CMP (and NRA) Highpower there is no weight limit.

    In theory you could shoot the same SR for the 200yd UMM match, but what's the fun in that?
     
  27. dw617

    dw617 NES Member

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    Crazy. I am not spending $1 on modifying anything for MM. On the CMP forums, guys are buying new uppers, barrels, parts, etc. Rules could change next year again. I dont like MM that much. Will probably bring one of my Bulas and just shoot.
     
  28. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    You need to read CMP GAMES rules not HIGHPOWER rules

    You can find link to the PdF here
    CMP Releases 2019 Competition Rules - Civilian Marksmanship Program
     
  29. mac1911

    mac1911 NES Member

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    I might just sell the M1a's and my ARs. Shoot the 308_M1 in MM . Pick up a nice 6.5 swede . i like Vintage better anyway.
     
  30. milktree

    milktree NES Member

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