Clarification of MA laws for ammo storage in vehicle / home

[waltherlover]

It's important to remember that improper ammunition storage (within a building) is not an arrestable offense. It's a fire regulation, so you can be cited by the fire department. There have, as I recall, been a few cases of false arrest arising out of an LEOs misunderstanding of the laws. Whether the citation you get will affect your "suitability" is anyone's guess.

The best strategy in MA is to exceed the legal requirements for everything. For example, when I go the range, I put all my guns in a hard sided container, with the slides open, and empty magazines. That is then stored in my trunk. Could I put a lock on it? Probably.

Consider that the laws are confusing for even those on here that spend a *LOT* of time reviewing them and trying to make sense of them. How much time do you think an average LEO spends looking at them? Granted, if he screws up, you can get a windfall from the town for false arrest, but consider as well that the arrest will show up forever, and might be used by your COP for suitability.

The bottom line here, as has been said many times, is you are walking a tight rope when you are gun owner in MA.

 

[bender73]

the more i read, the more i wanna move 50 min north to NH

 

[namedpipes]

the more i read, the more i wanna move 50 min north to NH

That's how it always starts...

Welcome to the club (and NES)

 

[richc]

I wonder why it is a fire regulation that ammo needs to be locked in a closet or container?

And if the regulation is purely for "within the building" does that mean I can leave ammo in my unlocked car in the driveway, or just sitting on my front walk?

Just curious how these arguments would play out, or if there is legal precedent?

In regards to being careful... last year I sent an email to the fire chief telling him about a snow plow driver who had dropped about 10' of snow on top of a fire hydrant. That afternoon the fire chief and his assistant came walking through the open doors of my garage and banged on the back door, to tell me that he was going to investigate the problem.

And my daughter stepped on an old, iron rake in the garage, causing the damn thing to go through her sneakers into her foot. And our garage once again was filled with fire, police and EMT folks. They came downstairs into my basement to help pick out a tool they could use to cut the rake.

It can all start so innocently, and go badly so quickly. Honestly the fire chief in my town, and the COP, are good guys. They have level heads and I know of cases that they've handled off the record. They don't want to make criminals out of regular citizens. But there are many instances where, in time of emergency, EMT's, fire and police can end up in your residence.

 

[bender73]

That's how it always starts...

Welcome to the club (and NES)

thanks.

 

[M1911]

But there are many instances where, in time of emergency, EMT's, fire and police can end up in your residence.

Yup.

 

[Biz]

I've seen some people mention locking firearms up in a "hard container". Is this really a requirement in a vehicle, or is a locked range bag sufficient?

There, I did it. My first post, asking a noob question, no less.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Locked range bag is fine. Just be aware that Trigger locks are NOT compliant with the Transportation Law!

 

[Biz]

thanks!

 

[MisterHappy]

There have been first questions that are a lot sillier.....

welcome!

 

[M1911]

Locked range bag is fine.

That is an opinion. Perhaps the correct opinion, but just an opinion nonetheless. The law isn't specific about it and there hasn't been a test case.

An excerpt from MGL Chapter 140 Section 131c:

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131c

What is a locked case? What is a "secure container"? Neither are defined in the statute and there is no case law that defines them.

So I am really uncomfortable when you present this recommendation so definitively. We simply don't know that a locked soft bag is fine.

 

[drgrant]

What is a locked case? What is a "secure container"? Neither are defined in the statute and there is no case law that defines them.

So I am really uncomfortable when you present this recommendation so definitively. We simply don't know that a locked soft bag is fine.

How can you be uncomfortable with it given there is no test for this law?

I can see various circumstances where a so called "hard case" might be considered equally inferior.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

How can you be uncomfortable with it given there is no test for this law?

1) It would suck to be test case.

2) A hard case is almost always more secure than a soft case with a locked zipper.

 

[KiloVictorTango]

For clarification, if you have a LTC A, and you're heading to the range, can you have your guns in an unlocked range bag, sitting in your passenger seat? Or is that in violation of MGL?

 

[drgrant]

1) It would suck to be test case.

2) A hard case is almost always more secure than a soft case with a locked zipper.

I've seen plenty of hard cases where you could steal the gun from the case and reassemble the hinge on it with the lock still intact on the other side. I've also seen plenty of hard cases where you could bust them open with a screwdriver, probably with less force and time than it would take you to cut open a soft case with a good knife.

That's why I am having trouble being "upset" about Len's assertion. I think it's pretty solid. I would think that with all of the unsafe storage cases in this state, that we would have seen something by now if a locked soft case was actually an issue worth worrying about.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

That's why I am having trouble being "upset" about Len's assertion. I think it's pretty solid. I would think that with all of the unsafe storage cases in this state, that we would have seen something by now if a locked soft case was actually an issue worth worrying about.

If he said it is probably OK, I'd be on board with him. It probably is OK. But to say "it is fine" is something that I have a problem with, given the uncertainty. There isn't a definitive answer.

For clarification, if you have a LTC A, and you're heading to the range, can you have your guns in an unlocked range bag, sitting in your passenger seat? Or is that in violation of MGL?

Large capacity long guns must be unloaded and in a locked trunk, locked case, or other secure container:

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.

If you have an LTC A, unloaded handguns can be within your direct control. However, direct control is not defined in the law. Personally, I think you would be better advised to have them locked up, out of site, then to have them on the seat next to you -- if I got stopped on a traffic violation, I would prefer that no gun cases be visible.

 

[jasons]

For clarification, if you have a LTC A, and you're heading to the range, can you have your guns in an unlocked range bag, sitting in your passenger seat? Or is that in violation of MGL?

That's the whole "direct control" argument. Some say that if they're within arms reach (or some other un-defined criteria) then they're under "direct control" and therefore you're carrying and not transporting. Others say they have to be on you, like in a holster, for it to be considered carry. I've never seen anyone cite any MGLs or good case law that defines what direct control really is legally.


As to the soft case thing - the fact is that whether or not a soft case with a lock through the zippers is "a locked case or other secure container" is opinion. I could see it go either way. It's one of those laws that's designed to give prosecutors wide latitude. (AKA, if they really want to F you over it they will.)

 

[jasons]

Personally, I think you would be better advised to have them locked up, out of site, then to have them on the seat next to you -- if I got stopped on a traffic violation, I would prefer that no gun cases be visible.

This is good advice.

 

[M1911]

That's the whole "direct control" argument. Some say that if they're within arms reach (or some other un-defined criteria) then they're under "direct control" and therefore you're carrying and not transporting. Others say they have to be on you, like in a holster, for it to be considered carry. I've never seen anyone cite any MGLs or good case law that defines what direct control really is legally.

Direct control is not defined in the MGLs. IIRC, the Supreme Judicial Court had a chance in the last year or two to clarify direct control in a case about storage in the home, but their decision just muddied up the waters even further.

 

[jasons]

Direct control is not defined in the MGLs. IIRC, the Supreme Judicial Court had a chance in the last year or two to clarify direct control in a case about storage in the home, but their decision just muddied up the waters even further.

Yep, it's yet another gray area in the Commonweath's wonderful set of gun laws. It's almost like they make them unclear and convoluted on purpose so as to make otherwise law-abiding gun owners criminals at any convenient time.

 

[M1911]

Yep, it's yet another gray area in the Commonweath's wonderful set of gun laws. It's almost like they make them unclear and convoluted on purpose so as to make otherwise law-abiding gun owners criminals at any convenient time.

I don't give the MA legislature that much credit. I think they are just incompetent.

 

[Len-2A Training]

For clarification, if you have a LTC A, and you're heading to the range, can you have your guns in an unlocked range bag, sitting in your passenger seat? Or is that in violation of MGL?

Nope, it would most likely be treated as a violation of the transportation law. You could argue that it "under your direct control" but you'd be in for $5-10K and there is a very good chance you would lose.

 

[Len-2A Training]

If he said it is probably OK, I'd be on board with him. It probably is OK. But to say "it is fine" is something that I have a problem with, given the uncertainty. There isn't a definitive answer.

Are you also still looking for that law that says that it is OK to breathe??

Glidden and EOPS have opined that the law allows for a soft or hard case, as long as it is locked (handguns/large-cap long guns).

I guess you've never pushed that metal rod in or out of a hard Plano type case with a nail or pliers, have you? Once that is removed you can pry open the case from the side opposite the locks.

I guess you've never used a bobby pin (old school) or paper clip to open the lock on most hard cases either? I've done all of the above very easily.

A simple flat-blade screwdriver will make short work of most all hard cases we commonly buy to transport guns (not including Pelican cases in this statement).

I can tell you that cutting thru ballistic nylon is tougher than opening either of the above (unless you have a super sharp knife).

TTBOMK, nobody has been prosecuted for using a soft case.

 

[KiloVictorTango]

Can the trunk of your car itself be the locked container in which your range bag is in when you're driving to the range?

 

[M1911]

Can the trunk of your car itself be the locked container in which your range bag is in when you're driving to the range?

See the post above:

An excerpt from MGL Chapter 140 Section 131c:

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

 

[MisterHappy]

Be advised that many trunks have fold-down seats, and if those are unlocked, then the trunk is not locked.

 

[M1911]

Be advised that many trunks have fold-down seats, and if those are unlocked, then the trunk is not locked.

Also, the back of an SUV is not a trunk.

 

[jasons]

Also, the back of an SUV is not a trunk.

And according to a firearms attorney that I respect who no longer posts here, a locked glove box or locked center console is neither an "other secure container" or "direct control." Not sure if this was based on case law that he knew about specifically or what. Kinda wish he was still around.

 

[MisterHappy]

The thing about the glove box was funny.....


A while back it was pointed out that a glove box was not acceptable for transportation as a "secure container", and it was also "not under your direct control".

Then, it was pointed out that were you to be driving a car, with weed in the glove box, the weed would be under your direct controt.

So. You have your weed, and your heater in the glove box....you can get jammed up for having weed under your direct control, and the gun, not.



If it's not on your person, put it in a locked box (a buddy has a Craftsman tool box, with a lock). Then put it in the trunk, or if no trunk, toss a blanket over it. Concealed means concealed.

 

[M1911]

Are you also still looking for that law that says that it is OK to breathe??

Come on, Len, you're better than that.

Glidden and EOPS have opined that the law allows for a soft or hard case, as long as it is locked (handguns/large-cap long guns).

Haven't Glidden and EOPS said that a post-ban "assault weapon" that is neutered (i.e., stock pinned and flash hider removed) is still an "assault weapon" and thus illegal in MA? Haven't they also said that police officers can't carry large capacity post-ban magazines (that is, their duty magazines) while off duty? You'll forgive me if I have some skepticism of some of their opinions.