Clarification of MA laws for ammo storage in vehicle / home

[Len-2A Training]

Yes they have. They took the BATFE ruling "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" and "expanded that"! I do NOT agree but i do understand their position.

You will just never see a MGL that says what you want is legal, that's all.

 

[M1911]

You will just never see a MGL that says what you want is legal, that's all.

I don't expect to. It would be nice to see a test case, though.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I don't expect to. It would be nice to see a test case, though.

You first!

 

[M1911]

You first!

Exactly.

 

[boatman]

OK. This is a great thread. Another test case. I have a SW 15-22 rifle. I transport it in a soft case rifle bag. The bag has pockets for the every popular 'clips' (love to use that word;-). I keep them unloaded in the bag. I put a cable lock through so the bolt can't close. It's a PITA to feed that cable thru.

The bag has 2 zippers that close to each other. Can I just get one of those teeny luggage locks and lock the zipper handles together instead of using the cable lock?

I am assuming that it would constitute a 'locked container'.

BTW, I have a hatchback, so I don't have a locked trunk. Thanks.

 

[M1911]

1) The cable lock does not satisfy the MA law for transport. The MA law for transport has been posted in this thread a couple times, but here it is again. Here is the appropriate paragraph to your question:

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container.

A cable lock through the action is not a locked trunk. A cable lock through the action is not a locked case. A cable lock through the action is not a secure container. So what you are doing now is not in accordance with the law (unless, of course, you are transporting it in a locked trunk).

Full text of the transport law is here: http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131c

2) As to your question of whether a locked soft case is in accordance with the law, that is exactly what Len and I have been arguing about in this thread. Perhaps you hadn't read the entire thread before posting your question (which is understandable). Start reading at this post and make your decision:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...vehicle-home?p=2526754&viewfull=1#post2526754

Len says it is. Ron Glidden says it is. EOPS has apparently said it is. I think it probably is, but I don't think it is as cut and dried as some think, and I sure wouldn't want to be the test case.

Note, that while a cable lock through the action is not suitable for transport, it is in accordance with the MA storage statute:

Section 131L. (a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

Your cable lock through the action is a "tamper-resistant mechanical lock". Full text of the storage statute is here:

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131l

 

[boatman]

1)

2) As to your question of whether a locked soft case is in accordance with the law, that is exactly what Len and I have been arguing about in this thread. Perhaps you hadn't read the entire thread before posting your question (which is understandable). Start reading at this post and make your decision:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...vehicle-home?p=2526754&viewfull=1#post2526754

l

first off, many thanks for the great and quick information you provide. Us less educated in this topic really appreciate you (and Len) putting up responses.

I have been following the thread regarding soft cases, but was getting more to the lock. At what point is a lock a lock? A twist tie, a zip tie, that little luggage lock i was referring to is like 1". Good chance you can pull the zipper out with it, or twist hard and break it. I am not criticizing or debating the law, just trying to figure out what is the legal way to transport my rifle. I would think my weapon is more secure with a cable lock or trigger lock than with a simple luggage lock thru the zippers...but it is only my job to obey not comment on what is right.

Funny, in MGL storage 131L "equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner " this is written so loosely that I can't see how this could be enforced.

If I put my cable lock thru the action, but don't lock it, then i am rendering the weapon inoperable. Heck, I can stick a pencil in the action and accomplish inoperability.

 

[M1911]

I have been following the thread regarding soft cases, but was getting more to the lock. At what point is a lock a lock? A twist tie, a zip tie, that little luggage lock i was referring to is like 1".

Since the law doesn't define what the word "lock" means, the best we can go by is the usual definition of the word. A little luggage lock is, indeed, a lock (even if it is a crappy one). A zip tie isn't. A lock has a key or combination. A zip tie doesn't.

Good chance you can pull the zipper out with it, or twist hard and break it. I am not criticizing or debating the law, just trying to figure out what is the legal way to transport my rifle. I would think my weapon is more secure with a cable lock or trigger lock than with a simple luggage lock thru the zippers...but it is only my job to obey not comment on what is right.

So? The law doesn't specify that your transportation method has to be more secure than X. It just says that it has to be:

contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container.

The fact that you think a cable lock is more secure than a soft case doesn't make transporting in one to be in accordance with the law above. Furthermore, since the transport statute does not allow transport with a cable lock or trigger lock, but the storage statue specifically does allow the use of a cable lock or trigger lock, it would appear that the MA legislature specifically didn't want to allow the use of a cable lock or trigger lock for transport. You can argue that they should not have written the statute that way, but that, and $3.50, will get you a latte.

As for the security of a cable lock -- cable cutters will go through those like butter. Keyed trigger locks can be removed by a screwdriver. Combination trigger locks can be removed within about 15 minutes simply by trying each combination systematically (with only three tumblers, there are only 1000 possible combinations). None of these methods are secure, but that isn't what this law is about.

The law isn't about right or wrong, or justice, or practicality, or logic.

Funny, in MGL storage 131L "equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner " this is written so loosely that I can't see how this could be enforced.

If I put my cable lock thru the action, but don't lock it, then i am rendering the weapon inoperable. Heck, I can stick a pencil in the action and accomplish inoperability.

I disagree. If you put your cable lock through the action but dont lock it, then your "tamper-resistant mechanical lock" is not "properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner". If you don't lock it, anyone could remove that cable lock without having to defeat the lock or break the cable. If you do lock it, only you could open the lock (provided only you have the key). Someone else would have to defeat the lock or break the cable (neither of which is particularly hard, but that's another matter).

As for the enforceability of the storage statute, I do know that people have gone to jail for violating the storage statute so it has been enforced.

Please note that I am not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.

 

[MisterHappy]

That's the problem with undefined definitions, as here:

http://www.strategypage.com/humor/articles/20020406.asp

Then, add in the interpretations that others come up with, for instance, "A high cap rifle has to be transported in a locked metal case...."

 

[swodski]

the more i read, the more i wanna move 50 min north to NH

I say that every day and I'm only a stone's throw away.

 

[TheQuag]

Great thread I learned a lot and it has clarified several areas regarding home storage. The ambiguity in the law seems to center around two clauses which the legislators, in their wisdom , left to our wonderful court system to define 1) what consitutes "under direct control" and "what constitues a secure locked container".

I work with another set of statues in Mass, I'm not a lawyer, I'm an engineer and I have to intepret these statues to protect my license hence my livelyhood) and my clients. Although I have a lot of problems with regulations in Mass and over regulation particulalry in case of gun laws I have have some advice that may help provide some perspective.

Most of the regulations which interprete laws are based on reasonable man standard. A standard is not a law. When they cannot write a law with enough specificity to cover all circumstances amny courts interpret a dispute under the reasonable man standard so what would a reasonable man do? If you are not considered reasonable ie start with what your peers would do, you loose. So you can come up with all sorts of tricky exceptions to locks and what under your direct control maens but I would suggest for starters you consider what others licensed gun owners in mass would consider what these defintions means ie to be under your direct control or a secure container. It does not guarrentee freedom from prosecution but it will help.

I have an LTC unrestricted and I would not have a loaded firearm anywhere in my home that was not either on my person or not stored in a locked gun safe or quick access gun box (you all know the type) sold in many gun stores, period. I would not store it in a walmart cheapo box with a padlock.

My question is for transporting in a car in mass when I choose not to carry but I am transporting. One vendor I bought a gun box for transport (G19) has a steel cable that is designed to secure the box to a portion of car. The vendor maintains that his box has withstanded court challanges for a secured container. My car does not have a truck. I had my G17 unloaded in this box with the cable secured to the rail of my passenger street. I believe the cable cannot be cut with "normal" cable cutters. I was told by a "friendly LOE" I should put the box in the back of my car as far away from my as I could from my person and put the ammo in a separate lock box (I know you don't have to do this). He felt for transport that would cover me in 99% of the stops except for NJ which he said stay out of. He said do not store it under the passenger seat.

thoughts?

PS I have lot of time today home during the storm, I get to clean my guns and bother folks on this forum, shop for a new gun; nice

 

[M1911]

My question is for transporting in a car in mass when I choose not to carry but I am transporting. One vendor I bought a gun box for transport (G19) has a steel cable that is designed to secure the box to a portion of car. The vendor maintains that his box has withstanded court challanges for a secured container. My car does not have a truck. I had my G17 unloaded in this box with the cable secured to the rail of my passenger street. I believe the cable cannot be cut with "normal" cable cutters. I was told by a "friendly LOE" I should put the box in the back of my car as far away from my as I could from my person and put the ammo in a separate lock box (I know you don't have to do this). He felt for transport that would cover me in 99% of the stops except for NJ which he said stay out of. He said do not store it under the passenger seat.

Paragraph B of MGL Chapter 140 Section 131C (which may not be applicable) states that:

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container.

The container that you describe is certainly a "locked container." And if it is in a locked container, then it doesn't have to be in a locked trunk (that pesky "or").
So what the "friendly LOE" told you might or might not be reasonable advice, it isn't required by law in MA.

 

[45collector]

I was told by a "friendly LOE" I should put the box in the back of my car as far away from my as I could from my person and put the ammo in a separate lock box (I know you don't have to do this). He felt for transport that would cover me in 99% of the stops except for NJ which he said stay out of. He said do not store it under the passenger seat.

Sounds like that officer was referring to interstate travel.

If you are staying in MA, the locked hard case which is cable locked to the frame under your seat is fine. It doesn't need to be a certain distance away from you.

 

[HTRN]

Sounds like that officer was referring to interstate travel.

If you are staying in MA, the locked hard case which is cable locked to the frame under your seat is fine. It doesn't need to be a certain distance away from you.

Nor does it need to be "cable locked to the frame."

 

[MisterHappy]

Massprudence.

It's what we're all supposed to have for dinner.

 

[Tdsjfb]

So assuming you have the firearm and ammo in a trunk (I will conservatively assume that the trunk is not considered locked with the back seat "pass through' accessible), would it be considered appropriately secured if the ammo and the unloaded firearm are in the same locked bag if they are in different compartments?

 

[JCV]

I'd like to thank everybody who has contributed to this thread, I feel like I've learned a lot. I've been hunting with my cousin's for the past few months and they have appearently not been following the storage laws. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted wha is correct.

1. Ammo does NOT need to be in a locked container while in a car/SUV.
2. An unloaded shotgun with trigger lock in a soft case is NOT compliant with Ch 140 Sec 131C if in an SUV.
3. An unloaded shotgun in a soft case in the trunk of my car IS compliant.

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I'd like to thank everybody who has contributed to this thread, I feel like I've learned a lot. I've been hunting with my cousin's for the past few months and they have appearently not been following the storage laws. Please correct me if I've misinterpreted wha is correct.

1. Ammo does NOT need to be in a locked container while in a car/SUV.
2. An unloaded shotgun with trigger lock in a soft case is NOT compliant with Ch 140 Sec 131C if in an SUV.
3. An unloaded shotgun in a soft case in the trunk of my car IS compliant.

Thanks again everyone!

You're going to hate me for this, but your statement #2 hinges on whether the shotgun in question is large capacity and possessed under an LTC/A or LTC/B. If it is a non-large capacity shotgun you need only transport it unloaded.

Now, do I think most LEOs understand this? No, that's why I always recommend transporting everything (other than your carry handgun) unloaded, in a locked case, & out of sight.

131C Review:

(a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person.

If you can carry, you can get in your car and drive. Fine $500, no jail, lose LTC for a year.

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container.

If you've got an LTC/B the handgun is unloaded and in a locked case or the trunk. Fine $500, no jail, lose LTC for a year.

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container.

Large capacity rifles and shotguns - unloaded and in a locked trunk or case. Fine $500-$5,000, no jail, lose LTC for a year.

Section 131C is as silent on non-large capacity long guns and FIDs as it is on ammunition.

And you can't go to jail for any of these.

 

[boatman]

Please correct me if I am wrong, I don't want to pass on incorrect info, but my understanding of 3 is correct, if it is a CAR WITH A LOCKABLE TRUNK, but NOT TRUE IF A SUV. For a SUV, where the trunk is not locked, it seems that your case also must be locked. At least that is my understanding, and to transport a rifle in a SUV, if you put a little luggage lock thru the holes in the zipper pulls, then you are in compliance.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Please correct me if I am wrong, I don't want to pass on incorrect info, but my understanding of 3 is correct, if it is a CAR WITH A LOCKABLE TRUNK, but NOT TRUE IF A SUV. For a SUV, where the trunk is not locked, it seems that your case also must be locked. At least that is my understanding, and to transport a rifle in a SUV, if you put a little luggage lock thru the holes in the zipper pulls, then you are in compliance.

Are you asking about "large capacity" rifles or shotguns or "non-large capacity" rifles or shotguns. It makes a difference.

If the former, the law only requires that it be: "contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container". There is no other information available on this except for speculation. The law does not mention SUVs, zipper pulls, or luggage locks.

On the other hand, if you're talking about the latter, the law is silent.

 

[boatman]

Was thinking about say an AR, and believed a SUV NOT to have a lockable 'trunk', although I am not sure about the argument that a locked car is different than a locked trunk, both are locked containers. However, not wanting to chance things, having a locked/secure container is required, and I thought there was a thread a while ago where the consensus was that a soft covered case that had the zippers locked together, even with a $2 teeny luggage lock, met this requirement.

 

[Tdsjfb]

Yes, it would actually exceed the statutory requirements.

As jasons stated, ammunition is not required to be stored or transported separately from the firearm.

Additionally, ammunition is not required to be secured in a vehicle.

So (in a vehicle), the firearm cannot be loaded, yet needs to be "securely locked", but the ammunition (can be anywhere but loaded in the firearm) can be sitting in the backseat or rolling around on the floor? My understanding was that the ammo needed to be "secured and locked" and in its "original packaging" (does that only apply to home storage?).

 

[Kevlar]

Was thinking about say an AR, and believed a SUV NOT to have a lockable 'trunk'...

Correct.

...although I am not sure about the argument that a locked car is different than a locked trunk, both are locked containers.

Hopefully, Comm. v. Reyes answers that question.

...thought there was a thread a while ago where the consensus was that a soft covered case that had the zippers locked together, even with a $2 teeny luggage lock, met this requirement.

That is merely speculation, as it has not yet been adjudicated.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Was thinking about say an AR, and believed a SUV NOT to have a lockable 'trunk', although I am not sure about the argument that a locked car is different than a locked trunk, both are locked containers. However, not wanting to chance things, having a locked/secure container is required, and I thought there was a thread a while ago where the consensus was that a soft covered case that had the zippers locked together, even with a $2 teeny luggage lock, met this requirement.

That is merely speculation, as it has not yet been adjudicated.

The law was not written listing exactly what locks or exactly what cases (or materials thereof) are acceptable and I don't think any of us want them to write statutory or case law with that much specificity! Given that, GCAB (who EOPS chartered to write some of the CMRs) of which Glidden has been the permanent chairman since its inception and EOPS has espoused that a soft case is fine as is a cheap (as opposed to expensive) lock is fine. Glidden has taught this for the past 14 years in police academies to new recruits and for in-service training and in seminars to chiefs/licensing officers, so if those officers were awake during the lecture they heard this.

Everything in MA is a "risk" and yes there are some with an agenda that would intentionally prosecute someone for things that are in perfect compliance with the law, just because they can. However, I don't think we need to get so paranoid about interpreting this part of MGL so that we go looking only for cases with tamper-proof hasps/hinges and 6-pin tumbler locks (after all a 4 or 5-pin tumbler may be deemed "not secure enough") to case every gun. And to imply that it is a problem is doing a disservice to our readership here on NES!

That's my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[Lank]

Here's a fun potential legal tangle-

What do you think about pistol or rifle tucked away inside a recessed and locked "stash spot" or a similar concealed safe in a MV?

- - - Updated - - -

The law was not written listing exactly what locks or exactly what cases (or materials thereof) are acceptable and I don't think any of us want them to write statutory or case law with that much specificity! Given that, GCAB (who EOPS chartered to write some of the CMRs) of which Glidden has been the permanent chairman since its inception and EOPS has espoused that a soft case is fine as is a cheap (as opposed to expensive) lock is fine. Glidden has taught this for the past 14 years in police academies to new recruits and for in-service training and in seminars to chiefs/licensing officers, so if those officers were awake during the lecture they heard this.

Everything in MA is a "risk" and yes there are some with an agenda that would intentionally prosecute someone for things that are in perfect compliance with the law, just because they can. However, I don't think we need to get so paranoid about interpreting this part of MGL so that we go looking only for cases with tamper-proof hasps/hinges and 6-pin tumbler locks (after all a 4 or 5-pin tumbler may be deemed "not secure enough") to case every gun. And to imply that it is a problem is doing a disservice to our readership here on NES!

That's my 2 cents on the matter.

Everything in MA is a "risk"

Well said.

 

[jasons]

Here's a fun potential legal tangle-

What do you think about pistol or rifle tucked away inside a recessed and locked "stash spot" or a similar concealed safe in a MV?

Why would that be a problem? I see no "concealed transport" laws...

 

[Lank]

Why would that be a problem? I see no "concealed transport" laws...

I suspect that MA would have a problem with it. Thats all.

 

[M1911]

I suspect that MA would have a problem with it. Thats all.

What law do you think would be broken?

 

[jaguar88xj6]

I can't believe this has gone on for 13 pages. It's very simple. If you have a LTC,
1. Hand gun must be under you control(on your person is the safest senario)or in a locked trunk or container.
2. High cap long gun must be in a locked trunk or locked container.
3. Non high cap long gun must be not loaded. No need for locked trunk or container.

 

[BillD1]

rifle/shotgun transport in car

I have several soft carrying cases for my rifles and shotgun. If I use the soft case with a trigger lock on the gun is that considered secured or must it be in a lockable case? (More money!)