Clarification of MA laws for ammo storage in vehicle / home

[daveshrews]

I apologize if this has been asked before, but I've searched the forum and haven't found a clear answer.

1) I know that if I leave a handgun in my car, it must be in a securely locked container, and I know that container may not contain ammunition. Does the ammunition have to be in a separate LOCKED container, or can the separate container be unlocked? Or can the ammunition be pretty much anywhere in the vehicle?

2) Is it necessary to store ammunition in the home in a locked container, or can it be in a drawer, cabinet, etc which is unlocked? For handguns that are stored in a safe, can this safe also contain ammunition?

I thought I knew the answers to these questions, but I was speaking to another gun owner recently who made me second-guess my understanding of these laws. I'm just looking for clarification. Thanks!

 

[EcHo]

1) Ammunition can roll around on the floor if you like, or can be in the same container as the handgun. MA law does not require storing ammo and guns in separate containers. I'd keep the ammo out of the mags though just in case some LEO thinks a loaded mag means a loaded gun.

2) Ammo and guns may be stored in the same locked container. MGLs do not require ammo to be locked up, but the CMRs require it for fire safety. (This only applies to ammo stored in a building and not your car) Check out 527 CMR 13.04(1)(e) http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dfs/osfm/cmr/cmr_secured/527013.pdf for the exact wording. Ammo must be in a locked container.

 

[Kevlar]

I know that if I leave a handgun in my car, it must be in a securely locked container

It must be "unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container" (M.G.L. c.140 s.131C)

and I know that container may not contain ammunition.

Incorrect. The unloaded firearm and the ammunition may be secured together.

Does the ammunition have to be in a separate LOCKED container or can the separate container be unlocked? Or can the ammunition be pretty much anywhere in the vehicle?

See previous answer.

Is it necessary to store ammunition in the home in a locked container, or can it be in a drawer, cabinet, etc which is unlocked?

Ammunition must be "stored in original containers and such containers shall be stored in a locked cabinet, closet or box". (527 CMR 13.04)

For handguns that are stored in a safe, can this safe also contain ammunition?

Yes, and unlike storage in a vehicle, firearms may be stored loaded.

I thought I knew the answers to these questions, but I was speaking to another gun owner recently who made me second-guess my understanding of these laws. I'm just looking for clarification. Thanks!

No problem dave, and welcome to NES!

 

[daveshrews]

Thank you so much - that was a concise and perfect answer!

 

[EcHo]

Thank you so much - that was a concise and perfect answer!

Very typical of a response from Kevlar. He's one of the few people here that gives cites with everything he says; I'm just too lazy to find them whenever someone asks unless I already know the MGL or CMR number.

 

[HTRN]

Yes, and unlike storage in a vehicle, firearms may be stored loaded.

Can you provide a cite for this. I see laws regarding "Transportation in a vehicle" or "storage" but not "storage in a vehicle."

Thanks!

 

[M1911]

Can you provide a cite for this. I see laws regarding "Transportation in a vehicle" or "storage" but not "storage in a vehicle."

There is no specific law about "storage in a vehicle." There is a law about storage, which does not disallow loaded storage. There is a law about transport in a vehicle, which requires guns that are not in your direct control to be unloaded.

What is unclear to me is which of the laws (transport or storage) governs while the vehicle is parked and unattended. I think the conservative recommendation is to obey the stricter law (i.e., transport which requires the gun to be unloaded).

 

[Kevlar]

It is generally accepted that storage in a vehicle is controlled by 140-131C.

 

[M1911]

It is generally accepted that storage in a vehicle is controlled by 140-131C.

Says who? I've seen some attorneys suggest that, but I've never seen anyone cite a precedent. And it wasn't clear to me whether what the attorneys really meant was "obey the stricter of the statutes because it is legally safer" versus "140-131C controls due to X, Y, and Z."

 

[Kevlar]

IANAL, and I don't have a legal cite (which is why I said "generally accepted"), but it is the opinion of several attorneys on this board, and the EOPS, that 140-131C controls storage in a motor vehicle. Personally, I'm inclined to follow their advice. YMMV.

A stored gun does NOT have to be unloaded.

A gun in a vehicle MUST be unloaded, unless it is under the direct control of the licensee.

Storing a gun and ammo in a vehicle is asking for serious problems.

When you start transporting guns other than via on the body carry, problems may arise. One big issue is the situation that results when you accidently leave your gun in the car. Since it is unsecured, and also probably loaded, you have unwittingly committed a crime.

As we all know, in Massachusetts, the only way for a properly licensed person to leave a handgun in the car is to unload it, and store it locked in the trunk, in a locked case, or inside some other secure container.

>snip<

Too many of my clients have found themselves in criminal trouble because they chose to transport a handgun inside the passenger compartment of their car or truck, did not unload and lock it in a case or the trunk or other container, and then accidentally or intentionally left it in their vehicle.

Q: Can I leave my gun in my car if I need to go into the store on my way home from the range or from hunting?

A: If your handgun or large capacity rifle or shotgun is transported in accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 140, §131C (i.e. unloaded and in a locked case, locked trunk or other secure container) then the gun may be left unattended in the vehicle. Weapons transported in this manner will automatically be considered "stored or kept" in compliance with the safe storage requirements of §131L.

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopster...&b=terminalcontent&f=chsb_frb_faqs&csid=Eeops

 

[Lucas McCain]

This post illustrates just how Phucked up Massachusetts laws are.

 

[M1911]

IANAL, and I don't have a legal cite (which is why I said "generally accepted"), but it is the opinion of several attorneys on this board, and the EOPS, that 140-131C controls storage in a motor vehicle. Personally, I'm inclined to follow their advice. YMMV.

And nothing in my post suggested not following their advice. Unloading the gun is clearly the more conservative approach. I would be very interested to learn what Cross-Xs clients were charged with and whether they were convicted (and if so, of what). But, unfortunately, we can no longer get an answer to that question.

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but to me the EOPS response is somewhat ambiguous (or just poorly worded).

This post illustrates just how Phucked up Massachusetts laws are.

Absolutely. 131C by itself is an abortion of a law. Combine it with 131L and it just compounds the problem.

 

[Kevlar]

And nothing in my post suggested not following their advice. Unloading the gun is clearly the more conservative approach. I would be very interested to learn what Cross-Xs clients were charged with and whether they were convicted (and if so, of what). But, unfortunately, we can no longer get an answer to that question.

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but to me the EOPS response is somewhat ambiguous (or just poorly worded).

Absolutely. 131C by itself is an abortion of a law. Combine it with 131L and it just compounds the problem.

Agreed, on all points.

 

[kevin9]

IANAL, and I don't have a legal cite (which is why I said "generally accepted"), but it is the opinion of several attorneys on this board, and the EOPS, that 140-131C controls storage in a motor vehicle. Personally, I'm inclined to follow their advice. YMMV.

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopster...&b=terminalcontent&f=chsb_frb_faqs&csid=Eeops

Actually, the FAQ you cite appears to indicate that S130L is the controlling statute for storage in a vehicle, and that guns stored in the state required for transportation by S131C automatically meet the requirements of S131L:

If your handgun or large capacity rifle or shotgun is transported in accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 140, §131C ... then the gun may be left unattended in the vehicle. Weapons transported in this manner will automatically be considered "stored or kept" in compliance with the safe storage requirements of §131L.

 

[HTRN]

Actually, the FAQ you cite appears to indicate that S130L is the controlling statute for storage in a vehicle, and that guns stored in the state required for transportation by S131C automatically meet the requirements of S131L:

Therefore, storing them in compliance (with §131L) in an unattended vehicle is okay, regardless of 131C?

Basically, the laws are written to screw with the law abiding, to give prosecutors the privilege of bringing charges against anyone they desire.

As timber says, were all criminals. We probably just have no idea what laws we have already broken.

 

[kevin9]

Therefore, storing them in compliance (with §131L) in an unattended vehicle is okay, regardless of 131C?

That's how I read it. Keeping them in C131C state while stored in a vehicle is the belt and suspenders approach.

Basically, the laws are written to screw with the law abiding, to give prosecutors the privilege of bringing charges against anyone they desire.

As timber says, were all criminals. We probably just have no idea what laws we have already broken.

Yep and yep

 

[geno1077]

I thought that if you are home you can leave a loaded gun in your house. For example if you go to bed at night you can leave your firearm loaded in your night stand. Is that correct???

 

[M1911]

I thought that if you are home you can leave a loaded gun in your house. For example if you go to bed at night you can leave your firearm loaded in your night stand. Is that correct???

1) All guns that are not under your direct control must be locked up.
2) "Direct control" is not defined in the law and the precedents for it are very unclear.
3) If you put a gun (loaded or unloaded) on your night stand, and leave your bedroom, it would be hard to argue that it is under your direct control.
4) If you leave a gun on your night stand while you are asleep, is it under your direct control or not? One firearms attorney has told me "absolutely not!" Another firearms attorney told me "probably." The second attorney agreed, however, that if you got up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom and left the gun on your night stand, that it is no longer under your direct control.

So, anyone want to be another test case? The last one that went to the SJC just muddied the waters even more.

 

[Kevlar]

I thought that if you are home you can leave a loaded gun in your house. For example if you go to bed at night you can leave your firearm loaded in your night stand. Is that correct???

No. It must be secured...

M.G.L. c.140 s.131L

(a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

ETA: Because as M1911 said, nobody really knows what "under the control" means.

 

[EcHo]

I thought that if you are home you can leave a loaded gun in your house. For example if you go to bed at night you can leave your firearm loaded in your night stand. Is that correct???

Its not specifically outlined in MA law. This is as close as you'll get:

Chapter 140: Section 131L. Weapons stored or kept by owner; inoperable by any person other than owner or lawfully authorized user; punishment

Section 131L. (a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

Based on this statute, you'd have to show that while you were sleeping the gun was under your control or being carried by you. There was a case last year (Commonwealth vs Runyan) about safe storage and somewhere in the decision I recall the judge saying something about being in the house is acceptable, but leaving the house with guns laying around is not. See http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...state-law-requiring-trigger-locks-on-firearms on the first page for discussion. Here's from the Boston Globe:

Gants wrote today in the case of Richard Runyan – a Billerica man facing prosecution for keeping a rifle under his bed without a trigger lock – that a licensed gun owner can keep locks off their firearm when they are at home.

This doesn't constitute a legal interpretation though and I am not willing to be the test case. Bottom line is I wouldn't do it.

 

[geno1077]

SO if someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night, you have to wake up, get your keys to the safe(Hopefully it's close by) open the safe(Or remeber your combination to the safe). This could take to much time to defend yourself and family. Waking up in the middle of the night all groggy and hopefully not fumbling around trying to load your gun if its not already. The intruder has a good head start on you depending on how big your house is. Your heart is racing and a lot could go wrong if you are not properly prepared.

 

[Stef]

"I heard a noise and removed my firearm from my locked safe and went to investigate the noise."

How can they prove this isn't what happened?

 

[FreeWillie]

"I heard a noise and removed my firearm from my locked safe and went to investigate the noise."

How can they prove this isn't what happened?

Just make sure you don't have security cams that prove you wrong.

 

[06LemansC6]

I almost feel bad for you poor bastards in that state.

 

[Stef]

Just make sure you don't have security cams that prove you wrong.

Good point. I hope no one sneaks into the room where my safe is and plants hidden cameras to catch me theoretically violating safe storage laws the next time they break in...

 

[Horrible]

1) I'd keep the ammo out of the mags though just in case some LEO thinks a loaded mag means a loaded gun.

Would you also not carry loaded mags in your trunk if there is no gun in said trunk? Say you are carrying extra mags for your carry gun?

Just curious. My goal is to do the best that I can to practice behavior that will keep me out of trouble.

 

[politenessman]

If the gun is unloaded, locked in a box, how can you defend yourself with it?

 

[M1911]

If the gun is unloaded, locked in a box, how can you defend yourself with it?

1) In MA, it doesn't have to be unloaded.
2) Now you are starting to understand MA gun laws

 

[M1911]

"I heard a noise and removed my firearm from my locked safe and went to investigate the noise."

How can they prove this isn't what happened?

You suddenly aren't feeling well. Not feeling well at all. Your significant other takes one look at you and dials 911. The ambulance crew arrives. And the fire truck. They come trooping into your apartment, carrying their gurney and other equipment. Shortly afterward the police officer arrives - on every medical call, they dispatch an ambulance, fire truck and squad car; it is SOP. The police officer looks through the open bedroom door and sees the unattended and unlocked gun. After the EMTs lift you into the gurney, the officer reads you your rights.

Sad to say, but it has happened before.

Or, as happened to me, one morning several years ago I was getting in my car to go to work. A passing car stopped in the road. The woman driver told me that she thought she saw flames coming from my chimney. I looked up and didn't see anything. I hadn't smelled anything, but I couldn't just leave. So I went back inside the house and looked around. I checked from basement to attic. I didn't see anything, but, again, didn't feel I could leave. So I called the fire non-emergency number. I told them it likely wasn't anything, but if they had someone free could they send them buy. Three minutes later the ladder truck came screaming down the street. Followed by the rescue truck. And the command truck. And a pumper. Then a police officer. And a bunch of us trooped all through the house, not necessarily together. I was more than a bit preoccupied, and if I'd been in the habit of leaving a gun out on the nightstand, I probably would not have remembered to secure prior to calling the Fire Dept.

Stuff happens. If you are going to leave something unlocked (which I do not recommend in MA as it is against the law), at the very least DO NOT leave it in plain sight.

 

[jasons]

If the gun is unloaded, locked in a box, how can you defend yourself with it?

We don't encourage self help.