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CCW wounded in shootout with robber
- Thread starter SineMetu82
- Start date
- Status
J
Jose
What would I do? I'm not saying.
BUT, just as something to think of; a BG has a gun out and pointed at someone threatening to kill him. There is no question as to who is the BG in this situation. How do you KNOW the BG isn't going to shoot the kid or someone else?
There's been a lot of talk about 'active shooters' and how someone CC'ing can prevent a mass shooting etc. How does this occurring in BK vs. a school change things?
BUT, just as something to think of; a BG has a gun out and pointed at someone threatening to kill him. There is no question as to who is the BG in this situation. How do you KNOW the BG isn't going to shoot the kid or someone else?
There's been a lot of talk about 'active shooters' and how someone CC'ing can prevent a mass shooting etc. How does this occurring in BK vs. a school change things?
J
Jose
From the Miami Herald
Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup
A robbery at a Burger King in Miami's Upper East Side neighborhood left one person dead and another seriously injured.
BY ROBERT SAMUELS
[email protected]
An afternoon shootout at a busy Burger King restaurant in Miami left a potential robber dead and the customer who shot him seriously wounded.
The bloody event unfolded about 4 p.m. Tuesday at the restaurant at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early.
The robber entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money, said Miami police spokesman Jeff Giordano.
A customer eyed him and the two started arguing. The customer had a concealed-weapons permit and his gun -- and the two exchanged gunfire.
The robber crumpled to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.
The customer, with several gunshot wounds, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.
Officers divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.
''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' said Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years. ``It is scary.''
Around them, drivers on busy Biscayne Boulevard gawked at the scene.
The area is a prime destination for residents in the Upper East Side neighborhood -- featuring Soyka's restaurant, Sushi Siam and Andiamo Pizza.
There in red is the reason Mr. Good Guy got shot. He should just have STFU and drilled the robber.
Robber fatally shot in Miami Burger King holdup
A robbery at a Burger King in Miami's Upper East Side neighborhood left one person dead and another seriously injured.
BY ROBERT SAMUELS
[email protected]
An afternoon shootout at a busy Burger King restaurant in Miami left a potential robber dead and the customer who shot him seriously wounded.
The bloody event unfolded about 4 p.m. Tuesday at the restaurant at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early.
The robber entered wearing a ski mask. He approached a clerk, showed his gun and demanded money, said Miami police spokesman Jeff Giordano.
A customer eyed him and the two started arguing. The customer had a concealed-weapons permit and his gun -- and the two exchanged gunfire.
The robber crumpled to the floor and was pronounced dead at the scene.
The customer, with several gunshot wounds, was in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital's Ryder Trauma Center.
Officers divided witnesses into several groups outside the restaurant to gather information about the incident. Employees waiting to start their shift called friends and family members on their cellphones to pass the time because they were not allowed through the police tape.
''I just hope all my people are OK inside,'' said Cynthia Thomas, who has worked at the Burger King for five years. ``It is scary.''
Around them, drivers on busy Biscayne Boulevard gawked at the scene.
The area is a prime destination for residents in the Upper East Side neighborhood -- featuring Soyka's restaurant, Sushi Siam and Andiamo Pizza.
There in red is the reason Mr. Good Guy got shot. He should just have STFU and drilled the robber.
![[cheers]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/018.gif "Cheers [cheers]")
Sounds at this point that Mr. Good Guy may have thought he could disarm or threaten the BG into giving up...possibly. Maybe Mr. GG wasn't mentally prepared to shoot & thought he could handle things by just pointing...who knows. What he did by arguing with the BG, though, was give BG plenty of time to size him up and eliminate Mr. GG's element of surprise when it did become time to shoot. Hopefully, no charges will be filed & he'll mend soon.
J
Jose
This was Florida. Reverse polarity from what you are used to in these situations.
J
Jose
Thank you, thank you very much!
I like true stories like this. It really makes you think/imagine/program yourself about how you would respond in this situation. It illustrates the great responsiblity one has when one carries. I'm not sure what I would do in this situation since there are many details missing. However, I DO know I would not argue or exchange any words with the BG. If I draw my weapon, my weapon will be fired immediately without saying a word.
I sit and read these threads with a mix of absolute fascination and that of utter surprise.
Several posters have made the point, quite correctly in my estimation, that unless at the scene and being able to evaluate the situation, it's not a cut and dried case. Mr Green had it right - it's not your fight. No point in arguing about chivalry , etc, this is MA like it or not and there are considerations to be made. You pull a gun, shoot the bad guy to death before he commits an act of violence ( okay, he has technically by pointing a gun at the clerk) and then what? You did that to protect the clerk - an total stranger - and the BK cash? , I'm going to be a good witness unless he threatens me or my loved ones
You really have no way to assess the BG's state of mind unless you've been faced with intense armed standoff situations - and I'm willing to bet that 99% of the poster here have not. Tactically, if this look like a bad scene going down, you could position yourself such that pulling your firearm and keeping it out of sight could work and give you the jump if Mr. BG escalates - rather like the shooting in the pharmacy that was a thread here a while back. Guy pulled his CCW and kept if hidden until the time was right, then let the BG have it. May be a better option that just dropping the BG before he can get out of the store with the loot
We are not cops, vigilantes or one person judges and juries just because we have CCW. That firearm is to protect you, your family and loved ones. If there is an out of control situation, drop the shooter as fast as you can. Unfortunately, unless the situation starts to go south, you should stay out of it. This has nothing to do with bravery, chivalry or wanting to send a message to the scum that feed off of the hard work of others. It's a pragmatic decision to make and draw a mental line in the sand that you don't cross unless it gets bad.
My prayers to all of the posters that you never have to know what that feels like.
Several posters have made the point, quite correctly in my estimation, that unless at the scene and being able to evaluate the situation, it's not a cut and dried case. Mr Green had it right - it's not your fight. No point in arguing about chivalry , etc, this is MA like it or not and there are considerations to be made. You pull a gun, shoot the bad guy to death before he commits an act of violence ( okay, he has technically by pointing a gun at the clerk) and then what? You did that to protect the clerk - an total stranger - and the BK cash? , I'm going to be a good witness unless he threatens me or my loved ones
You really have no way to assess the BG's state of mind unless you've been faced with intense armed standoff situations - and I'm willing to bet that 99% of the poster here have not. Tactically, if this look like a bad scene going down, you could position yourself such that pulling your firearm and keeping it out of sight could work and give you the jump if Mr. BG escalates - rather like the shooting in the pharmacy that was a thread here a while back. Guy pulled his CCW and kept if hidden until the time was right, then let the BG have it. May be a better option that just dropping the BG before he can get out of the store with the loot
We are not cops, vigilantes or one person judges and juries just because we have CCW. That firearm is to protect you, your family and loved ones. If there is an out of control situation, drop the shooter as fast as you can. Unfortunately, unless the situation starts to go south, you should stay out of it. This has nothing to do with bravery, chivalry or wanting to send a message to the scum that feed off of the hard work of others. It's a pragmatic decision to make and draw a mental line in the sand that you don't cross unless it gets bad.
My prayers to all of the posters that you never have to know what that feels like.
See, I read a post like this and think "this is what's wrong with society". The mentality that unless it's "your fight", you should stay out of it. If people actually gave a shit about their fellow man, his property, and their community, the world would likely be a better place.
It doesn't, and that's the hypocrisy that I see from some posters here. Increased CCW will help deter crime, but it won't stop incidents involving shooters if the CCWers are unwilling to act in defense of others.
J
Jose
I reject your analysis and I have sound legal reasons for doing so.
That's not true according to the laws of my state. And even if you were right, the mere fact that some criminal has decided to commit armed robbery in front of my family IS a threat to them and to me.
NOR ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO SO BEFORE WE ACT IN SELF DEFENSE! Where do you get some of this crap?
All we are required to do is act in the way a reasonable person would. A reasonable person may conclude that a handgun pointed at a clerk places the clerk in danger of severe injury or death.
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I pray I never have to shoot someone too. And you make some reasonable points. However, for you, when would it be okay to shoot this guy, assuming you and your family weren't in direct danger? If he shoots the cashier and then turns and starts walking away, do you still watch? Now he goes into the parking lot and on the way to his car he shoots a woman in the head who is walking into the BK. Should you intervene yet? He is out of the BK and on his way elsewhere. You aren't in danger and neither is your family, however two people are now dead because you failed to act.
Again, I wasn't there, and I don't know 100% for sure how I would react in such a situation, but I'd like to believe I would care as much about preventing an innocent stranger from being murdered as I would care about myself.
I don't see any hypocrisy here. I see some folks who say they would immediately intervene in such a situation, and others who would be more circumspect. I understand both arguments.
The vast majority of armed robberies are not active shooter situations. As RKG pointed out, yes, a person robbing a BK at gunpoint is clearly putting people in immediate danger of death and grave bodily injury, and thus could be legally fired upon. But, as RKG further points out, the vast majority of such incidents result in no shots fired -- the perp takes the money and runs.
That is a very different situation from someone pulling out a gun and just starting to shoot people for the sake of shooting people. It is not hypocritical for someone to say that he would react differently in a garden variety robbery than he would in an active shooter situation. It is not hypocritical for someone to say that he carries a gun to protect himself and his family, not to protect third parties or third parties' money.
In most BK or McD's I've been in, it is very hard to find a safe backstop. If the perp is at the counter and I'm behind him, my backstop is the kitchen, which is full of innocents. Personally, I don't want to take that shot if I don't have to.
I agree with those who say they'd need to actually be there to say how they'd respond.
I'll be damned if I'm going to spend the rest of my life in jail because I drilled some dude holding up a BK. Who, as we all know, would be a former choir boy just turning his life around.
I'll also be damned if I'm going to stand around and let some coked-up a**h*** start executing people on the spot. Not when I've got 10 rounds of JMB's own .45 ACP to even the score.
Fact is, only the boots on the ground knew what was going on. Only the CCW holder knows exactly how it played out - whether he tried to "play cop" and talk the dude out of it, or if he just drew and got shot for his trouble.
The cold, harsh reality of this sort of thing in a gun-unfriendly area like MA is that use of your firearm, even in the most obvious defense of your own life, is going to cost you dearly, both monetarily and legally. You're going to need legal representation; you're going to go to jail; and you're at the mercy of a court system that rewards thugs and criminals and, has been noted, "discourages self-help".
I'm not going to put my family in legal and financial jeopardy over $100 out of the BK register. I'm not going to sacrifice my freedom and/or my hard-earned cash for the noble - but misguided in MA - notion of deterring criminals by resistance.
But by the same token, the day I stand by and allow miscreants to harm others while I hold the means to prevent it is the day I turn in my ticket. If the situation looks like people are going to get hurt, then consequences be damned. I'm in; I'm in all the way; and I'm going to do my level best to smoke the bastard before he gets me.
And I only hope that my good friends at NES contribute to my legal defense fund...![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
I'll be damned if I'm going to spend the rest of my life in jail because I drilled some dude holding up a BK. Who, as we all know, would be a former choir boy just turning his life around.
I'll also be damned if I'm going to stand around and let some coked-up a**h*** start executing people on the spot. Not when I've got 10 rounds of JMB's own .45 ACP to even the score.
Fact is, only the boots on the ground knew what was going on. Only the CCW holder knows exactly how it played out - whether he tried to "play cop" and talk the dude out of it, or if he just drew and got shot for his trouble.
The cold, harsh reality of this sort of thing in a gun-unfriendly area like MA is that use of your firearm, even in the most obvious defense of your own life, is going to cost you dearly, both monetarily and legally. You're going to need legal representation; you're going to go to jail; and you're at the mercy of a court system that rewards thugs and criminals and, has been noted, "discourages self-help".
I'm not going to put my family in legal and financial jeopardy over $100 out of the BK register. I'm not going to sacrifice my freedom and/or my hard-earned cash for the noble - but misguided in MA - notion of deterring criminals by resistance.
But by the same token, the day I stand by and allow miscreants to harm others while I hold the means to prevent it is the day I turn in my ticket. If the situation looks like people are going to get hurt, then consequences be damned. I'm in; I'm in all the way; and I'm going to do my level best to smoke the bastard before he gets me.
And I only hope that my good friends at NES contribute to my legal defense fund...
I would have to say that the story doesnt give enough info.
Not sure if anyone here watches the show "Best Defense"
but it actually covered a similar situation a couple of weeks ago with a corner store (the Kwikimart).
I guess the situation depends on how the threat is presenting himself.
If the threat comes in, shows gun, demands money, gets money and heads for the door...
Be a good witness.
If the threat comes in, shows gun, makes threats to kill someone? the game changes.
try and find the opportunity to draw and fire when the threat is focused elsewhere. Like on the clerk. This way you limit the chances of a "shootout"
Good info, but God only knows how it plays out in the real world and I hope no-one here ever has to encounter this.
Not sure if anyone here watches the show "Best Defense"
but it actually covered a similar situation a couple of weeks ago with a corner store (the Kwikimart).
I guess the situation depends on how the threat is presenting himself.
If the threat comes in, shows gun, demands money, gets money and heads for the door...
Be a good witness.
If the threat comes in, shows gun, makes threats to kill someone? the game changes.
try and find the opportunity to draw and fire when the threat is focused elsewhere. Like on the clerk. This way you limit the chances of a "shootout"
Good info, but God only knows how it plays out in the real world and I hope no-one here ever has to encounter this.
Uhh, I'd say that a BG pointing a (likely to be) loaded firearm at an innocent person is "pretty far south" in my book.
Obviously here everyone has their own line in the sand, formed from a balance of ethical, legal, and moral factors. Or at least, those who carry should take time to think about these things at length.
-Mike
+1... Mark.. couldn't agree more.
There was recently a string of serious armed robberies in central MA. The cops didn't/couldn't stop these guys... but guess what did- a citizen with a gun. Nobody got "injured" by these thieves, but IMO it was only a matter of time.
-Mike
Oh oh, here comes the new guy and he's about to alienate himself
Without being there, I can't say what I would have done in that specific scenario but I can say this, I think the CCW in FL acted improperly. Your two choices in that scenario are to do absolutely nothing and try to escape unharmed or to take action immediately, swiftly, deliberately, without hesitation, and with purpose. If you do anything other than one of those two then you should not be carrying a concealed weapon. Indecision equals escalation (he would not have been wounded otherwise). Putting the legal ramifications aside, you need to be of the mind set that once you think you need to take action in a lethal manner you can not look back or hesitate, draw and shoot in one mental motion. When you truly have that state of mind, you will be amazed at how far your limits can be pushed before you really think you need to take action. It is my opinion that too many people in that scenario think that drawing their weapon is a stand alone step. We are not a bunch of Dirty Harry's or Batman's roaming the streets looking to help the less fortunate. My carry weapon has one purpose, to kill in the self defense of me and my family. I pray everyday that I will never need it. IMO, anyone who draws their weapon thinking "if he does X, I will shoot, if he does Y, I will not" or anyone who would jump in and shoot to kill just because they see a weapon across a room pointed at a stranger lacks the maturity, responsibility, and proper state of mind to carry.
Please spare me the bashing and personal attacks/name calling. It is simply my opinion and not directed at any person or post in this thread. It's just my opinion.
BTW, I'm not some old bat that doesn't have the energy or could care less about the world, I just think like one![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
.
I'm a 34 year old with a wife and 18 month old son.
Without being there, I can't say what I would have done in that specific scenario but I can say this, I think the CCW in FL acted improperly. Your two choices in that scenario are to do absolutely nothing and try to escape unharmed or to take action immediately, swiftly, deliberately, without hesitation, and with purpose. If you do anything other than one of those two then you should not be carrying a concealed weapon. Indecision equals escalation (he would not have been wounded otherwise). Putting the legal ramifications aside, you need to be of the mind set that once you think you need to take action in a lethal manner you can not look back or hesitate, draw and shoot in one mental motion. When you truly have that state of mind, you will be amazed at how far your limits can be pushed before you really think you need to take action. It is my opinion that too many people in that scenario think that drawing their weapon is a stand alone step. We are not a bunch of Dirty Harry's or Batman's roaming the streets looking to help the less fortunate. My carry weapon has one purpose, to kill in the self defense of me and my family. I pray everyday that I will never need it. IMO, anyone who draws their weapon thinking "if he does X, I will shoot, if he does Y, I will not" or anyone who would jump in and shoot to kill just because they see a weapon across a room pointed at a stranger lacks the maturity, responsibility, and proper state of mind to carry.
Please spare me the bashing and personal attacks/name calling. It is simply my opinion and not directed at any person or post in this thread. It's just my opinion.
BTW, I'm not some old bat that doesn't have the energy or could care less about the world, I just think like one
. I'm a 34 year old with a wife and 18 month old son.
Thank you - it's what I was trying to say in my last three posts, but could not quite capture it. You did it in far fewer words as well...I guess this morning, the BK clerk can be grateful that someone gave a shit. Sure there are things he could have done differently, (as wisely pointed out by Jose), but in todays world, scumbags like this tend to shoot people - even if they comply. No one could have foreseen what was in this mans head. Perhaps he intended to rob, then open fire on everyone in the restaurant - is it that farfetched? Thankfully, because of someone who put his fellow man before himself and quelled the desire to didi mao, we'll never have to find out.....
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
I wish for him a speedy recovery and to the scumbag - a secure place in hell....
Frankly, we don't know what went down there. I agree it might "smell like
that" but frankly there hasn't been an accurate depiction of the sequence of
events to really draw a conclusion. As I stated earlier, this guy may well
have been backed into a corner on what choices he could make.
-Mike
True, but I should have clarified that I was basing my opinion on the story in the paper this morning that says the robber came in and the CCW confronted him then the shootout occurred. I am not questioning him for shooting the man as I was not there, I am just saying that if the story is true, he should have skipped the introductions.
Agreed. Press reports, in general, are usually wrong. Without video and/or detailed accounts from various participants (which will differ), it is awfully hard to know exactly what happened.
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Oh oh, here comes the new guy and he's about to alienate himself
Without being there, I can't say what I would have done in that specific scenario but I can say this, I think the CCW in FL acted improperly. Your two choices in that scenario are to do absolutely nothing and try to escape unharmed or to take action immediately, swiftly, deliberately, without hesitation, and with purpose. If you do anything other than one of those two then you should not be carrying a concealed weapon. Indecision equals escalation (he would not have been wounded otherwise). Putting the legal ramifications aside, you need to be of the mind set that once you think you need to take action in a lethal manner you can not look back or hesitate, draw and shoot in one mental motion. When you truly have that state of mind, you will be amazed at how far your limits can be pushed before you really think you need to take action. It is my opinion that too many people in that scenario think that drawing their weapon is a stand alone step. ....
OK, that's WAY to reasonable, thought out and mature for a newbie. I'm very dissapointed in you MXD. Read the FAQ's please. New non-green members must make a minimum of 10 outragous claims, ask at least 5 really stupid questions and execute 3 displays of false bravado at minimum!
You're really not keeping your end up sir!
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
I don't disagree and I respect you for your point of view. I will stop and help absolutely anyone right up until the point where it might impact the rest of my life.
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