CCW wounded in shootout with robber

[RKG]

There are two competing aspects to this type of situation.

On the one hand, robbery is by definition a crime against the person (as opposed to larceny, which is a crime against property). By definition, if an armed robber displays a weapon to the person in possession of the cash and demands the cash, he is making a threat to use the weapon if the cash is not forked over (and, possibly, even if it is). So, almost by definition, you have an immediate threat or death or serious bodily injury against a third party.

On the other hand, we know that statistically, most clerks will fork over the dough and most robbers, even those who have displayed a weapon, will then take the dough and flee, without shooting.

Given this, and given further the inescapable risk of causing injury as a result of one's own shot being fired, I'd not shoot unless I saw more. Exactly what more it would take requires, as someone already observed, that you be there.

 

[MXD]

There are two competing aspects to this type of situation.

On the one hand, robbery is by definition a crime against the person (as opposed to larceny, which is a crime against property). By definition, if an armed robber displays a weapon to the person in possession of the cash and demands the cash, he is making a threat to use the weapon if the cash is not forked over (and, possibly, even if it is). So, almost by definition, you have an immediate threat or death or serious bodily injury against a third party.

On the other hand, we know that statistically, most clerks will fork over the dough and most robbers, even those who have displayed a weapon, will then take the dough and flee, without shooting.

Given this, and given further the inescapable risk of causing injury as a result of one's own shot being fired, I'd not shoot unless I saw more. Exactly what more it would take requires, as someone already observed, that you be there.

You said it more eloquently than me but that's what I meant

 

[GSG]

On the other hand, we know that statistically, most clerks will fork over the dough and most robbers, even those who have displayed a weapon, will then take the dough and flee, without shooting.

I was watching a reality TV show, I think it was "Most SHocking," and it was all videos of people fighting back against crooks. They quoted a statistic saying that in something like 80% of the cases where robbers shot, stabbed, hit, etc. the clerk, it was when the clerk was complying with all of their demands.

 

[vellnueve]

Not surprised. The perceived power that a robber has over the clerk is like a narcotic to them.

 

[Admin]

I was watching a reality TV show, I think it was "Most SHocking," and it was all videos of people fighting back against crooks. They quoted a statistic saying that in something like 80% of the cases where robbers shot, stabbed, hit, etc. the clerk, it was when the clerk was complying with all of their demands.

+1 I've watched enough video that tells me if there is a weapon in my face I need to figure out a way to kill the BG. I will never comply.

 

[terraformer]

I was watching a reality TV show, I think it was "Most SHocking," and it was all videos of people fighting back against crooks. They quoted a statistic saying that in something like 80% of the cases where robbers shot, stabbed, hit, etc. the clerk, it was when the clerk was complying with all of their demands.

That's 80% of a fraction of the overall. It doesn't invalidate RKG's point that a clerk has a good chance of not getting killed/assaulted if they just hand over the cash. It therefore becomes a personal choice as to how to react.

 

[b79holmes]

SNIP.... but reading between the lines it sounds like the CCW holder didn't just draw and shoot.

I'd not assume that just yet. Don't all the training discussions say shoot until down? Isn't a wound kind of random in it's effect on someone?

Isn't it just as likely our good citizen shoots the robber and robber immediately shoots back? "Bang" "bang" and they are both wounded and both are still standing? Until we know more facts this is just as likely.

I must of read it in the S&W CCW forum where two Hells Angles types have a literal dual in a casino out west. Both have .357's. "Bang" "Bang" and they both drop dead.

A lot of us practice/train for various scenarios and maybe we have a plan and maybe we don't and even if your plan goes off as you envisioned it, it may not end they way you thought.

Better to be armed and with a plan than a sheep but that is about all you can really plan for.

Bill

 

[Blitz1]

Personally I'm not planning on getting into a gun fight over the Kings money even though I really like his commercials. Now if the bad guy threatend me with deadly force........he/she would be dispatched.

Without being there, it is difficult to state the the CCW holder acted properly in my opinion.

Yup, that about says it right there.

 

[RI_John]

This story reinforces why I, personally, would never open carry. You're standing there at the BK counter, looking up at the menu trying to decide which chicken sandwich you want, and the BG shoots you first in the back of the head while you're distracted because he sees your weapon. If you were carrying concealed, you would have the advantage of surprise and you wouldn't be singled out as a target.

 

[drgrant]

Isn't it just as likely our good citizen shoots the robber and robber immediately shoots back? "Bang" "bang" and they are both wounded and both are still standing? Until we know more facts this is just as likely.

That's a hollywood version of how a gunfight transpires. In reality, there's often this little thing called an OODA loop. Say the CCW just drew and started to shoot at the guy, without saying a word... the bad guy, believe it or not, needs at least a small amount of time to process this fact- eg, his brain has to say "hey im getting shot at, do something" and then react to it and fire back.. On joe street thug, this might take longer than you would expect, because with a few exceptions, most of them are not planning on encountering any resistance. This might only be a few seconds, but a few seconds is the difference between life and death in a lot of these confrontations. The moral of the story is don't throw your initiative away.

Of course, I'm gonna give this CCW guy the benefit of the doubt... this news report is sketchy and doesn't really say much about how the incident
actually panned out. There could be a lot of factors involved in the whole thing. For all we know the gun carrier could have had to "start with
his pants down" so to speak.... and if he survived that, then he did a hell of a job. He did the best anyone could ever expect- which was to leave the
scene alive. That's really the whole point.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

This story reinforces why I, personally, would never open carry. You're standing there at the BK counter, looking up at the menu trying to decide which chicken sandwich you want, and the BG shoots you first in the back of the head while you're distracted because he sees your weapon. If you were carrying concealed, you would have the advantage of surprise and you wouldn't be singled out as a target.

Maybe... or maybe the BG would have seen your gun and said "f*** this" to himself and went on to hit another burger king instead. That door likely swings both ways.


-Mike

 

[z0mbi]

I'm glad no one else got hurt in the shootout. Would you guys do anything differently in this situation?

I would have tried harder to not get shot.

 

[GSG]

+1 I've watched enough video that tells me if there is a weapon in my face I need to figure out a way to kill the BG. I will never comply.

I find it funny in a sick and twisted kind of way that you put a smiley at the end of that sentence.

That's 80% of a fraction of the overall. It doesn't invalidate RKG's point that a clerk has a good chance of not getting killed/assaulted if they just hand over the cash. It therefore becomes a personal choice as to how to react.

I agree, he's right, most robbers are looking for a quick buck, and the smart ones know that shooting people draws attention. Not only that, but even robbers are human beings, and chances are they don't look forward to massacres.

But, with that said, I personally find it a bit scary that the only way to find out what kind of robber you're faced with is for them to start shooting.

I can honestly say that it's my sincere hope that I never have to take another person's life. But I can also say that I'm not giving any armed Burger King robbers the benefit of the doubt.

Just one more reason I prefer McDonald's to Burger King.

 

[GSG]

Maybe... or maybe the BG would have seen your gun and said "f*** this" to himself and went on to hit another burger king instead. That door likely swings both ways.


-Mike

I have a sort of funny story about that that I might tell you in person sometime.

 

[drgrant]

Just one more reason I prefer McDonald's to Burger King.

Just watch out for the drunks/saucers at the McDonalds in East Otis. (there was another fun thread on here about that... )

-Mike

 

[GSG]

Just watch out for the drunks/saucers at the McDonalds in East Otis. (there was another fun thread on here about that... )

-Mike

What's even funnier is as soon as I typed that I thought someone might mention my post about that.

 

[MassMark]

I think in many ways - especially here in Massachusetts, we've become conditioned not to act in the defense of others. Chivalry has been watered down over the centuries - most recently, it meant holding a door open for a lady. I however identify more with the original intent of the word chivalry: " the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight - esp. courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak".

Now, I don't fancy myself some sort of knight in shining armor, but what I do fancy myself as, is a person who is connected to defending those who cannot....I choose not to let a woman be accosted in a Burger King drive through, or let someone be assailed while riding the T. Vigilante? Hardly - though it would appear so. I like to think that I'm connected to my fellow man enough to put my own safety at risk in the defense of others. Perhaps I'm a fool....

Though I was not there, what I will say is that I would have done everything in my power not to give the perp a chance at a shoot-out. I would then leave my fate to a jury of my peers and a good attorney and if all else failed - would hope that I'd get a letter or two in the clink. In any case, I'd at least be able to look at myself in the mirror. Something I would not be able to do if I sat motionless with my Chicken Fries and rolled the dice that a desperate armed criminal would take the money and run and not blow away an innocent person....But that's just me....

 

[RI_John]

Maybe... or maybe the BG would have seen your gun and said "f*** this" to himself and went on to hit another burger king instead. That door likely swings both ways.


-Mike

Good point.

 

[FrugalFannie]

Way to go!

 

[wolf223]

 

[jhblaze1]

I'm glad no one else got hurt in the shootout. Would you guys do anything differently in this situation?

ya, I wouldn't risk my life and potentially freedom to try and protect burger kings money. No way in hell I'd ever intervene in a robbery unless the robbers started shooting people. My life is worth more than BK's or any other business' money.


eta: For clarification, it all depends on how threatened I feel. Without being there, I can't say exactly how i'd react. For me to shoot though, I'd need to really really believe that I or someone else was about to get killed.

 

[vellnueve]

I wouldn't protect their money, but I wouldn't stand by and watch some poor kid get killed either.

 

[Martlet]

If more people shot them to the ground rather than wait there to see what they are going to do, hoping it's take the money and leave, there would be fewer robberies.

 

[Jose]

Let me ask this of those of you who would "play the odds" in a situation like this.

How would you like it if, instead of leaving or shooting the clerk, the armed robber turns on you or your family first? Think it can't happen? Think again.

Now you are drawing against the drop and your odds of success went down considerably.

OTOH, if you took action while the douche's attention is focused on the clerk you most likely could have shot him while he wasn't even looking and you would have had a great target choice to stop him with as few shots as possible (use your imagination here).

An armed robbery is a crime of violence, committed with a deadly weapon. Those are legally accepted facts in every state. Someone has been placed in fear of death or severe injury, even if it isn't you.

In this narrow situation at least, my state gives armed citizens the legal green light to use deadly force to stop such a threat.

If I got placed in this same situation, the only way I would not respond affirmatively is if I alone had to look after a child or children. If I had children and at least one other adult with me to look after them, then it's go time.

These are not heroics. There is simply too much at stake to leave the outcome at the mercy of some unhinged freak who decides to stick up a restaurant that is almost always crowded with children.

 

[Jose]

If more people shot them to the ground rather than wait there to see what they are going to do, hoping it's take the money and leave, there would be fewer robberies.

Another good point.

 

[rcinma]

A lot of good points but without details it is hard to say what I would do.

If I am with my daughter, the last thing I would risk is drawing fire in her direction. That could mean shooting first without trying to get the BG to turn in my direction or it could mean not drawing at all.

If alone the story is different, but I if it is a choice between my kid or some poor sap BK clerk there is no choice.

 

[doobie]

A Concealed Carry Weapon was wounded? Poor Weapon.

 

[M1911]

Personally I'm not planning on getting into a gun fight over the Kings money even though I really like his commercials. Now if the bad guy threatend me with deadly force........he/she would be dispatched.

Without being there, it is difficult to state the the CCW holder acted properly in my opinion.

Agree completely. Not my money. If I can didi mao, I will.

 

[MassMark]

Agree completely. Not my money. If I can didi mao, I will.

I guess if this were solely "about the money", high-tailing it out the door would be a no-brainer. In my view however, this speaks to more than just the Benjamins.

The criminal element is emboldened because they have two things driving them: A desire to exploit the weak for their own gain and the knowledge that John Q. Public, in most cases will be heading for the door. It's good odds for them in their mission to terrorize and prey on those who cannot defend themselves. The "it's not my problem" mentality - prevalent in today's society, is a ticket to ride for the dregs...

If more people not only refused to be victims, but also reached within and re-ignited a long-dormant sense of chivalry - a connection to their fellow man, rather than an instinct to look away, you may see the tables turn a bit. Until then, the criminal element will continue to run carte-blanche through our ranks - with the knowledge that folks will generally didi mao, rather than stand and fight the ilk...

 

[vellnueve]

"I want a liter of cola!"