CCW wounded in shootout with robber

[SineMetu82]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/965735.html

One man was killed and another seriously wounded in a shootout inside a Miami Burger King on Tuesday, officials said.

Police said a man wearing a ski mask walked into the store at Biscayne Boulevard and 54th Street and demanded money from a clerk.

A customer, who has a concealed weapons permit, pulled a gun, said Officer Jeff Giordano, a Miami police spokesman.

The customer and robber exchanged fire.

The robber was shot dead at the scene.

The customer, who had several gunshot wounds, was taken to Ryder Trauma Center in serious but stable condition, said Lt. Ignatius Carroll, a Miami Fire Rescue spokesman.

At about 4 p.m., officials got several 911 calls reporting people shot inside the Burger King.

 

[scooterguy]

I'm glad no one else got hurt in the shootout. Would you guys do anything differently in this situation?

 

[WeedWhacker]

Would you guys do anything differently in this situation?

story really does not provide allot of detail. But the robber sure sounded like he was willing to pull the trigger....

 

[MXD]

Would you guys do anything differently in this situation?

That's a tough one. I don't think I could answer that honestly without actually being there.

I do have a question though. In MA if the scenario played out where the bad guy had a gun in the clerks face demanding money and you were behind the bad guy out of his line of sight and eliminated him, would you have any legal issue defending your actions because you shot him from behind?

 

[Jose]

Would you guys do anything differently in this situation?

Nope.

BG has motive to kill or severly injure me or an innocent party: check
BG has means to kill or severly injure me or an innocent party: check
BG has opportunity to kill or severly injure me or an innocent party: check
I did not start the confrontation: check
I have no safe way to retreat: check

Scenario meets all Ohio requirements for the use of deadly force

 

[Jose]

That's a tough one. I don't think I could answer that honestly without actually being there.

It hardly gets any more clear cut than this one.

I do have a question though. In MA if the scenario played out where the bad guy had a gun in the clerks face demanding money and you were behind the bad guy out of his line of sight and eliminated him, would you have any legal issue defending your actions because you shot him from behind?

Good grief! Shoot him to the ground already!

They really have you guys beaten down, don't they?

 

[pdm]

Good grief! Shoot him to the ground already!

They really have you guys beaten down, don't they?

They don't recommend "self-help".

 

[Jose]

They don't recommend "self-help".

Yeah, some bitch named Coakely or some such.....

 

[Jamie]

Yeah, some bitch named Coakely or some such.....

Exactly.

 

[JGreen]

Personally I'm not planning on getting into a gun fight over the Kings money even though I really like his commercials. Now if the bad guy threatend me with deadly force........he/she would be dispatched.

Without being there, it is difficult to state the the CCW holder acted properly in my opinion.

 

[vellnueve]

Nope.

BG has motive to kill or severly injure me or an innocent party: check
BG has means to kill or severly injure me or an innocent party: check
BG has opportunity to kill or severly injure me or an innocent party: check
I did not start the confrontation: check
I have no safe way to retreat: check

Scenario meets all Ohio requirements for the use of deadly force

I would do one thing differently. If he drew with the criminal's attention fully on the clerk, he should have shot immediately rather than given the perp time to swing around and shoot back. Depends on the scenario though, but reading between the lines it sounds like the CCW holder didn't just draw and shoot.

 

[MXD]

It hardly gets any more clear cut than this one.

It does get more clear than that. As crazy as it sounds, there are scenarios where there is a weapon in the hand of a bad guy but your life is not in as much danger as it appears. Suppose the guy has his hand on the counter and the gun is behind the register in that hand and its obvious that all he wants is the cash and he's out the door.

Granted, that scenario is extremely rare but it does occur. Go youtube "robber gets attacked" and tell me how many you find where a bad guy tries to rob a store with a gun and he gets hit with a stick by the clerk and they struggle. Even though the opportunity is there to kill, some of them have no intention to shoot and kill and they run away.

There is no clear cut line as to when your life is in danger, its all based on our own perception of the situation

 

[CRSIII]

Disrupt the cerebulum. Don't give an assailant a chance. That way, you won't get shot.

 

[freedom2012]

judged by 9 than carried by 6

BTW Coakley is a traitor to the self-evident truths

 

[Fsorrent]

It does get more clear than that. As crazy as it sounds, there are scenarios where there is a weapon in the hand of a bad guy but your life is not in as much danger as it appears. Suppose the guy has his hand on the counter and the gun is behind the register in that hand and its obvious that all he wants is the cash and he's out the door.

Granted, that scenario is extremely rare but it does occur. Go youtube "robber gets attacked" and tell me how many you find where a bad guy tries to rob a store with a gun and he gets hit with a stick by the clerk and they struggle. Even though the opportunity is there to kill, some of them have no intention to shoot and kill and they run away.

There is no clear cut line as to when your life is in danger, its all based on our own perception of the situation

If you represent the mean to end a life, you represent the chance to. That is in itself enough to require immediate defense of one's life. Doesn't matter what your true purpose is, it's not up to the defender to decide. The defender merely need's to just assume that their life is in imminent danger, in which within the 3 seconds one has to decide, it's safe to assume that the person did have reasonable reason to believe that he or a 3rd party had to fear for their life. Seeing as how the perp shot, the citizen made the correct choice.

 

[vellnueve]

judged by 9 than carried by 6

BTW Coakley is a traitor to the self-evident truths

Not to nitpick, but trial juries here consist of either 6 or 12 members.

 

[Jose]

I would do one thing differently. If he drew with the criminal's attention fully on the clerk, he should have shot immediately rather than given the perp time to swing around and shoot back. Depends on the scenario though, but reading between the lines it sounds like the CCW holder didn't just draw and shoot.

I agree. From all robbery videos I have seen, the robber's attention is almost always 100% on the money. It does seem like CCW guy said or did something that attracted the robber's attention.

Me? I don't give warnings. If the gun is coming out it is because deadly force is justified and that will be that.

 

[vellnueve]

That's what I've always thought... If you're CCWing and the gun comes out, it's because you've already made the decision that its a situation that necessitates a defensive shooting. Sounds like he might have tried to play cop.

 

[Jose]

It does get more clear than that. As crazy as it sounds, there are scenarios where there is a weapon in the hand of a bad guy but your life is not in as much danger as it appears. Suppose the guy has his hand on the counter and the gun is behind the register in that hand and its obvious that all he wants is the cash and he's out the door.

Granted, that scenario is extremely rare but it does occur. Go youtube "robber gets attacked" and tell me how many you find where a bad guy tries to rob a store with a gun and he gets hit with a stick by the clerk and they struggle. Even though the opportunity is there to kill, some of them have no intention to shoot and kill and they run away.

There is no clear cut line as to when your life is in danger, its all based on our own perception of the situation

Some guy shows me a gun in an aggressive manner and I will shoot him, regardless of whether he intends to actually shoot me or just scare me. Same thing if he is doing it to an innocent third party in my presence.

In case you were wondering, I don't know of one state where brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner is not grounds for the application of deadly force to end said threat.

I am not about to hesitate to ask what his intentions are, or give him time to show me.

 

[GSG]

Personally I'm not planning on getting into a gun fight over the Kings money even though I really like his commercials. Now if the bad guy threatend me with deadly force........he/she would be dispatched.

Without being there, it is difficult to state the the CCW holder acted properly in my opinion.

Agreed. If it's a more professional robber who wants to take the money and get out, I'll be a great witness. If he's a coked out freak trembling and shouting and losing control, I'll drill him the first chance I get.

I would do one thing differently. If he drew with the criminal's attention fully on the clerk, he should have shot immediately rather than given the perp time to swing around and shoot back. Depends on the scenario though, but reading between the lines it sounds like the CCW holder didn't just draw and shoot.

Yup. I think a lot of people get this cowboy movie ideal in their head that it's wrong or cowardly to shoot someone in the back. A threat is a threat.

 

[Fsorrent]

That's what I've always thought... If you're CCWing and the gun comes out, it's because you've already made the decision that its a situation that necessitates a defensive shooting. Sounds like he might have tried to play cop.

Can't blame a guy for hesitating to kill another person...it's a tough decision.

 

[Skald]

I'd shoot. If a guy is willing to commit armed robbery of a place like BK in the middle of the day he would have no qualms about killing anyone.

 

[vellnueve]

Can't blame a guy for hesitating to kill another person...it's a tough decision.

Not saying that it isn't, but you need to make that decision before you reveal your firearm, because once it's out, someone is going to get shot, and you'd rather it not be you.

 

[GSG]

Can't blame a guy for hesitating to kill another person...it's a tough decision.

I agree, but I think that's a decision you need to make before you ever pick up a gun. You won't have time to think if you're dunking chicken nuggets in BBQ sauce when a convicted felon strolls in waving his stolen pistol around. Draw the line in your head, and repeat it to yourself. Know the limits of your life and the law, and don't hesitate.

 

[Fsorrent]

Not saying that it isn't, but you need to make that decision before you reveal your firearm, because once it's out, someone is going to get shot, and you'd rather it not be you.

I agree with you...just mentioning that it isn't an easy decision to make. Especially when you know the consequences.

 

[SteelShooter]

I think if I'm standing in line with my daughter behind this guy or next to him and he pulls a gun, I am not waiting to see if he is willing to use it, I know I am and will and I won't be looking for a center mass shot.

 

[MXD]

It hardly gets any more clear cut than this one.


Good grief! Shoot him to the ground already!

They really have you guys beaten down, don't they?

Some guy shows me a gun in an aggressive manner and I will shoot him, regardless of whether he intends to actually shoot me or just scare me. Same thing if he is doing it to an innocent third party in my presence.

In case you were wondering, I don't know of one state where brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner is not grounds for the application of deadly force to end said threat.

I am not about to hesitate to ask what his intentions are, or give him time to show me.

We pretty much agree with only one exception. If I am reading your opinion correctly, as soon as he gives you the justification, you will use deadly force. My opinion is that even if he gives me justification, its not automatic that I would use deadly force.

Our definition of "justification" sounds the same

As a disclaimer, let me tell you that I have never been in a life threatening situation so my opinion is founded in "untested" theory. Hopefully I can argue from that point for the rest of my life. Maybe if I was put in that situation I would act as soon as I was legally able to (I certainly would not act any slower). I can honestly tell you that I never want to be able to say "My experience is....."

 

[vellnueve]

Besides mall ninjas, I don't think anyone wants to ever find how how they'll react...

 

[Admin]

I have to imagine there is CCTV video footage of this shooting.

 

[MXD]

I think if I'm standing in line with my daughter behind this guy or next to him and he pulls a gun, I am not waiting to see if he is willing to use it, I know I am and will and I won't be looking for a center mass shot.

That changes everything.