CCW wounded in shootout with robber

[Jose]

Your two choices in that scenario are to do absolutely nothing and try to escape unharmed or to take action immediately, swiftly, deliberately, without hesitation, and with purpose. If you do anything other than one of those two then you should not be carrying a concealed weapon. Indecision equals escalation (he would not have been wounded otherwise). Putting the legal ramifications aside, you need to be of the mind set that once you think you need to take action in a lethal manner you can not look back or hesitate, draw and shoot in one mental motion. When you truly have that state of mind, you will be amazed at how far your limits can be pushed before you really think you need to take action.

I don't disagree with any of this.

IMO, anyone who draws their weapon thinking "if he does X, I will shoot, if he does Y, I will not" or anyone who would jump in and shoot to kill just because they see a weapon across a room pointed at a stranger lacks the maturity, responsibility, and proper state of mind to carry.

I disagree with this level of infexibility. There are situations where a surrepetitious draw and a wait and see attitude is called for. Also, if you do witness the beginning of an episode where a gun is pulled by someone on a third party, and you KNOW that the person drawing the gun is truly the aggressor, then standing there and doing nothing is not the only legal and moral option.

 

[MXD]

OK, that's WAY to reasonable, thought out and mature for a newbie. I'm very dissapointed in you MXD. Read the FAQ's please. New non-green members must make a minimum of 10 outragous claims, ask at least 5 really stupid questions and execute 3 displays of false bravado at minimum!

You're really not keeping your end up sir!

10 outrageous claims
1. I dated Carmen Electra
2. It's 11 inches long
3. I once landed a 747 when the pilot passed out
4. I was E.T.'s stunt double in the flying bike scene
5. It's 11 inches long
6. I play professional poker
7. I never lose when I gamble
8. "Goodwill Hunting" was based on my life
9. It's 11 inches long
10. I swear all of these are true

5 really stupid questions
1. Should I tell a LEO I have a gun if he pulls me over?
2. Can I shoot into the air in a crowd to get my friends attention?
3. Should I carry with one in the camber?
4. What's more lethal, 9mm or .40
5. Can everyone post their stories of when they shot in self defense?

3 displays of false bravado
I could be here all day but as a general rule, I have found the boring stories to be the true ones.

Do I qualify now?

*disclaimer* The above post is 100% in jest. None of the ten claims are true (except 2, 5, and 9) and I know the answers to all 5 questions

 

[Admin]

 

[Bob P]

10 outrageous claims
1. I dated Carmen Electra
2. It's 11 inches long
3. I once landed a 747 when the pilot passed out
4. I was E.T.'s stunt double in the flying bike scene
5. It's 11 inches long
6. I play professional poker
7. I never lose when I gamble
8. "Goodwill Hunting" was based on my life
9. It's 11 inches long
10. I swear all of these are true

5 really stupid questions
1. Should I tell a LEO I have a gun if he pulls me over?
2. Can I shoot into the air in a crowd to get my friends attention?
3. Should I carry with one in the camber?
4. What's more lethal, 9mm or .40
5. Can everyone post their stories of when they shot in self defense?

3 displays of false bravado
I could be here all day. I have found as a general rule, the boring stories are the true ones.

Do I qualify now?

*disclaimer* The above post is 100% in jest. None of the ten claims are true (except 2, 5, and 9) and I know the answers to all 5 questions

MUCH better. Go and sin no more.

 

[M1911]

Do I qualify now?

Bravo!

 

[Jose]

+1

MXD, you have talent.

 

[lord1234]

MXD hilarious. +2. Go green soon!

 

[Stef]

We need a guy like this in every Burger King to keep this from ever happening again.

As I was leaving my house I stuffed my Glock 10mm "man gun" Mexican-style in my pants. My backup is a fully customized 1911 with all the IPSC add-on options in my $500.00 leather pancake holster custom made by Belgian Monks who have devoted their lives to silence and holster making. These are the ones used by SEAL Team 6, which I used to be a part of but all records of my activities were destroyed in a fire "accident".

I put on my Royal Robbins photographer vest to match my pants while wearing a T-Shirt underneath reading "from my cold dead hands." That way, nobody can see what I'm packing. I had my Centennial .38 Special in my ankle holster, just like the gun rag guys carry. Lastly I had my "Covert Sniper" I.D. Card in my wallet with my "Concealed Weapons Permit Badge". I was ready for anything.

I drove my "bug-out truck" to the 7-11 for some beer, 'cause you never know. It is a performance-styled Subaru BRAT with 4 cylinders of ground pounding fury.

I pull up to the 7-11 store and notice a nefarious looking girl scout eyeballing me from the back of her mother's SUV. A likely cover.

The mother returned to the truck and went for the keys in her purse, but I knew from my years of combat-honed instincts that she was actually making a furtive movement for an offensive weapon.

I attempted a tactical shoulder roll, but fell flat on my face, kind of flopping on the pavement to avoid any incoming rounds and to make it look like I meant to do that. The store owner called 911 which is good, because I then did a roll and attempted to draw my Glock.

Unfortunately, since I did not have a holster, the gun "went off" and the bullet creased my weener. But I was prepared for that and bit down on a 9mm casing to take my mind off the pain as I dove for the garbage barrel. That's when I noticed the girl scout shouting something to her mother who began to take cover. I knew they were closing on me so I drew my trusty custom 1911 Wilson COMBAT....I knew that they would be impressed with that. I then duck walked to the front of her SUV but my gut kinda got in the way and I fell on my ass, which caused me to swallow my 9mm casing.

I then tried to roll to my right, but didn't want to scuff my holster, so I just threw myself into a telephone pole, but I landed on my right side anyway. So I fired one shot towards the woman's SUV to pin them down as I recovered my wind.

Before the mother knew what was happening, I charged her and I threw my groin into her knee. I knew that as I vomited on the ground in front of her that I had interrupted her OODA loop, and I had the advantage now. As she ran screaming for the girl scout (I knew she was going for backup) I made for my super-charged BRAT tactical truck. I jumped into the driver seat, forgetting that I had left my rare Israeli contract AR 15 Bayonet on the seat (honed to a razors edge). I could handle it though, half my ass is an implant from war wounds. As I attempted to start my truck, police and paramedics arrived on the scene. My truck would not start and instead backfired once and caused the police to taze me. At this point, I tactically soiled myself while in convulsions. My custom 1911 then fell out the window, but I still had my Centennial .38. I knew then that I had to take out the woman with the purse.

So I aimed my revolver at her, at which point the first police officer fired once striking me in the chest. Fortunately, I was wearing my level 3A body armor. I didn't want to hurt the cops, they had obviously been duped by the evil temptress who was now embracing her partner in crime and crying to the police in the background - I knew it was a ruse.

I pulled out my concealed weapons permit badge and showed it to the officer who shot me and yelled out "I'm one of you guys!!!" He continued to cover me, and ordered me to drop my .38 so I laid it down. After all, I still had my bayonet attached to my ass. The cop walked toward me, and upon reading the badge maced me right in the eyes. Fortunately, my Oakley shooting glasses stopped most of the spray and I was able to rip free of the Taser cords easily. It only cost me one nipple...easily replaced. I dove for the passenger side of my truck and began to run zig zag for a ditch. Unfortunately, the bayonet sticking out of my ass slowed me down. I knew it would have to be hand-to-hand now. I knew the cop couldn't take me when I saw he merely carried a Glock 17, not a man's gun. So I immediately threw my eye into his right hook, followed by a knee into his mag light. As I lay thrashing on the ground, I took the heel of my Bates enforcer boot and kicked at the cops ankle. I knew from my classified experiences in Tajikistan that once I broke his ankle, the cop would fall down and I could "stun kick" him in the head, knocking him out but not hurting him.

Apparently the cop had also been to Tajikistan, because he side stepped me and struck me in the back with his ASP baton, but my trauma plate absorbed it. I then drew my Benchmade auto knife and was promptly tased again, but I was ready for it this time and only wet myself a little bit.

Next thing those cops knew, I was unconscious. That'll teach 'em.

Author unknown, it's been floating around the net for years.
..

 

[Bill Nance]

I'm envisioning how this would go down in Mass.

My lawyer: Clearly there was means, motive and intent to do lethal or grievous bodily injury to the clerk, so my client was acting in defense of himself and others lawfully on the premises.

DA: So the defendant shot the robber in the back of the head. EXECUTED him, rather than just letting the clerk just give him the money.. and as we all know xx% (insert made up statistic here) of the time, the robber just goes away.

Clerk (coached carefully by the DA): and I was giving the guy the money when the defendant just shot him, I'm SO traumatized I'm suing him!

I'd probbly shoot the guy, but I wouldn't want to be the defendant in the jury trial above in Mass.

 

[THUNDERCHIEF]

+1 to Martlet for his comments.

I am not sure why some are posting as if the GG was protecting BK money!? It had nothing to do with protecting the money in the register. Also, who cares about the statistics about what percentage of armed robberies result in shooting (or whatever)? Its not about probability, its about possibility. Is the BG threatening to kill someone? Well he is not threatening to tickle the clerk with the gun so that answer is yes. The BG initiated the violent act and could possibly kill the clerk or anyone else in or around the BK on purpose or by accident (ND).

/John

PS. +1 z0mbie

 

[Jose]

+1 to Martlet for his comments.

I am not sure why some are posting as if the GG was protecting BK money!? It had nothing to do with protecting the money in the register. Also, who cares about the statistics about what percentage of armed robberies result in shooting (or whatever)? Its not about probability, its about possibility. Is the BG threatening to kill someone? Well he is not threatening to tickle the clerk with the gun so that answer is yes. The BG initiated the violent act and could possibly kill the clerk or anyone else in or around the BK on purpose or by accident (ND).

/John

PS. +1 z0mbie

All good points.

 

[jkelly]

That's a tough one. I don't think I could answer that honestly without actually being there.

+1
Way too little information to make an informed decision.

Respectfully,
jkelly

 

[terraformer]

I just wanted to point out a few complicating factors that people haven't mentioned before. First and foremost is backfield. The GG and BG were on the customer side of the counter. The staff, most likely 2-3 counter staff plus cooks staff were caught on the other side. The counter staff may or may not have moved out of the backfield but likely were not able to leave the counter area. The clerk in direct contact with the BG was undoubtedly within feet of the perp. Walking up behind the perp is your best bet but it almost guarantees the clerk is in your backfield. From any angle to the left and right may have had other counter staff in the back field. As you get closer to the counter you get within the BGs FOV robbing you of your biggest asset. Surprise. You should be unholstered at this point and so you will now be a huge target for the BG.

Forget about the moral and ethical issues of not shooting, there are huge moral issues with shooting and it has nothing to do with the bad guy. I would love to see video of this because it would be a great academic exercise in some of the mechanics of this. It also shows that drawing the guys fire is also a possible worthwhile exercise in order to give the folks in the backfield a chance to GTFOW.

 

[2000GM]

That's a point I'm also surprised not to have come across while reading all of this. I think the fact that this took place inside a confined area with (presumably) multiple other innocent bystanders changes things a little. I thank God nobody else was hit.

 

[Jose]

The best way to reduce the danger of innocents getting shot is to neutralize the threat before the threat has a chance to shoot.

Makes sense to me.

 

[Martlet]

The best way to reduce the danger of innocents getting shot is to neutralize the threat before the threat has a chance to shoot.

Makes sense to me.

It also reduces recurrences.

 

[GSG]

"I want a liter of cola!"

Funnily enough, that scene was actually filmed in a Burger King...

This was Florida. Reverse polarity from what you are used to in these situations.

Yup.

http://www.flsenate.gov/STATUTES/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0776/ch0776.htm

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.--

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.


(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

In most BK or McD's I've been in, it is very hard to find a safe backstop. If the perp is at the counter and I'm behind him, my backstop is the kitchen, which is full of innocents. Personally, I don't want to take that shot if I don't have to.

Drop into a crouch and shoot upwards, using the ceiling as a backstop. Seriously.

There was recently a string of serious armed robberies in central MA. The cops didn't/couldn't stop these guys... but guess what did- a citizen with a gun. Nobody got "injured" by these thieves, but IMO it was only a matter of time.

And more importantly, when the clerk that shot back it was a similar situation to this one, just a gun being pointed, and the good guy was cleared in the shooting.

Big thread on it here:

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50442

The best way to reduce the danger of innocents getting shot is to neutralize the threat before the threat has a chance to shoot.

If it actually comes to shooting, then yes, but if it can all be ended without bloodshed, I'm all for it.

 

[jkelly]

That's a point I'm also surprised not to have come across while reading all of this. I think the fact that this took place inside a confined area with (presumably) multiple other innocent bystanders changes things a little. I thank God nobody else was hit.

From the link in the OP:

The bloody event unfolded about 4 p.m. Tuesday at the restaurant at Northeast 54th Street and Biscayne Boulevard. It was a time, employees said, when it is usually crowded with schoolchildren and people getting out of work early.

I would have thought that posters had read this, perhaps I’m wrong. As I said before, "Way too little information to make an informed decision".


Respectfully,
jkelly

 

[xEnDoNx]

I would have cowered in the corner because my license says "Restriction: Sporting".

 

[M1911]

That's a point I'm also surprised not to have come across while reading all of this. I think the fact that this took place inside a confined area with (presumably) multiple other innocent bystanders changes things a little. I thank God nobody else was hit.

Guess you missed this back on page 8:

In most BK or McD's I've been in, it is very hard to find a safe backstop. If the perp is at the counter and I'm behind him, my backstop is the kitchen, which is full of innocents. Personally, I don't want to take that shot if I don't have to.

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=837243&postcount=79

 

[TonyDedo]

Regardless of this specific situation, my philosophy is that I'm not shooting the robber unless MY life or the life of a family member is in danger.

In a robbery like this, that may or may not be the case - it's impossible to tell unless you're there.

But I work under the assumption that if I use a firearm in defense, I'm getting arrested, buying CrossX a new Mercedes, and very possibly spending some time behind bars. While I'm more than happy to accept those terms to protect myself and my loved ones, I'm NOT willing to do so to protect the clerk and the cash in the register at McDonalds.

 

[M1911]

Drop into a crouch and shoot upwards, using the ceiling as a backstop. Seriously.

You're not telling me anything new. I was taught that at LFI.

Sometimes that will work. Sometimes it won't. Unless I'm right up front at counter with the guy, I may have to shoot over the condiments counter, over tables, over other patrons, etc. I may not be able to crouch down and still have a shot. Crouching also assumes that either 1) I have cover or 2) he hasn't seen me yet. In many of these sorts of situations, the perp is moving and shooting, the good guy is moving and shooting, etc. -- it isn't a static fight and stopping to crouch down will get you killed.

 

[suitableperson]

I would of hidden behind the fattest assed patron in the place and let fly when he wasn't lookin

 

[vellnueve]

Regardless of this specific situation, my philosophy is that I'm not shooting the robber unless MY life or the life of a family member is in danger.

In a robbery like this, that may or may not be the case - it's impossible to tell unless you're there.

But I work under the assumption that if I use a firearm in defense, I'm getting arrested, buying CrossX a new Mercedes, and very possibly spending some time behind bars. While I'm more than happy to accept those terms to protect myself and my loved ones, I'm NOT willing to do so to protect the clerk and the cash in the register at McDonalds.

While this is a possibility, I think the MA-centric view of many who have lived here their whole lives has skewed some views. It is my belief that, even in MA, a justified shooting is something that most DAs won't attempt to prosecute. I think there's a higher chance they will here than elsewhere, but I just don't see it happening that often with justified shootings unless other factors were present. However, I can understand how that view develops since the general prevailing (and correct) view is that the MA government is there to give you the shaft.

 

[TonyDedo]

I pray I never have to shoot someone too. And you make some reasonable points. However, for you, when would it be okay to shoot this guy, assuming you and your family weren't in direct danger? If he shoots the cashier and then turns and starts walking away, do you still watch? Now he goes into the parking lot and on the way to his car he shoots a woman in the head who is walking into the BK. Should you intervene yet? He is out of the BK and on his way elsewhere. You aren't in danger and neither is your family, however two people are now dead because you failed to act.

Two people are not dead because you failed to act - two people are dead because someone, having nothing to do with you, shot them.

This may come as a shock to some, but CCW does not carry with it an obligation to protect everyone you come into contact with. You are not an off duty police officer or mall security guard.

So where do you draw the line between not shooting at all, and running around at night in a mask and cape, foiling crimes?

I draw the line at the lives of my family and myself.

Because (in response to vellnueve), REGARDLESS of what state you live in, if you draw a firearm with the intent of shooting an armed person, there's a sizeable chance you're going to end up in the hospital, jail or the morgue. And those are the only people for whom I'm willing to take that risk.

You can talk about chivalry and fair fights and boast about what a great person you are, but it's all nonsense, but this is the real world, and the only thing that matters is that you and your family goes home safely at the end of the day.

 

[Martlet]

Two people are not dead because you failed to act - two people are dead because someone, having nothing to do with you, shot them.

This may come as a shock to some, but CCW does not carry with it an obligation to protect everyone you come into contact with. You are not an off duty police officer or mall security guard.

So where do you draw the line between not shooting at all, and running around at night in a mask and cape, foiling crimes?

I draw the line at the lives of my family and myself.

Because (in response to vellnueve), REGARDLESS of what state you live in, if you draw a firearm with the intent of shooting an armed person, there's a sizeable chance you're going to end up in the hospital, jail or the morgue. And those are the only people for whom I'm willing to take that risk.

You can talk about chivalry and fair fights and boast about what a great person you are, but it's all nonsense, but this is the real world, and the only thing that matters is that you and your family goes home safely at the end of the day.

Thankfully, the world isn't full of self-centered people who could care less about their neighbors and community. It's pretty sickening to read how little respect some people have for their fellow man.

 

[GSG]

While this is a possibility, I think the MA-centric view of many who have lived here their whole lives has skewed some views. It is my belief that, even in MA, a justified shooting is something that most DAs won't attempt to prosecute. I think there's a higher chance they will here than elsewhere, but I just don't see it happening that often with justified shootings unless other factors were present. However, I can understand how that view develops since the general prevailing (and correct) view is that the MA government is there to give you the shaft.

In the 1970's, the owner of Ken's Steakhouse was drinking while carrying a firearm in his restauraunt, and he got upset that there was a black man inside. He followed him out to his car and shot at him in the parking lot.

He beat the case and got his LTC back.

Not justified at all IMO, but he had a good lawyer. There's more to a shooting than the shooting itself.

 

[MassMark]

Thankfully, the world isn't full of self-centered people who could care less about their neighbors and community. It's pretty sickening to read how little respect some people have for their fellow man.

It continually amazes me...

 

[Jose]

So where do you draw the line between not shooting at all, and running around at night in a mask and cape, foiling crimes?

Why must you trot out this ridiculous canard?

 

[vellnueve]

Two people are not dead because you failed to act - two people are dead because someone, having nothing to do with you, shot them.

This may come as a shock to some, but CCW does not carry with it an obligation to protect everyone you come into contact with. You are not an off duty police officer or mall security guard.

So where do you draw the line between not shooting at all, and running around at night in a mask and cape, foiling crimes?

I draw the line at the lives of my family and myself.

Because (in response to vellnueve), REGARDLESS of what state you live in, if you draw a firearm with the intent of shooting an armed person, there's a sizeable chance you're going to end up in the hospital, jail or the morgue. And those are the only people for whom I'm willing to take that risk.

You can talk about chivalry and fair fights and boast about what a great person you are, but it's all nonsense, but this is the real world, and the only thing that matters is that you and your family goes home safely at the end of the day.

The whole reason that government has become the overbloated inefficient monstrosity it is is because of the unwillingness of people who refuse to help their fellow man. Because they don't, the government has to do it.

I'm not about to rush into a crowded mall to engage a bunch of terrorists with a J-Frame, but, yes, if I'm carrying somewhere, and someone right there falls under the threat of imminent death from an obviously violent offender, and I have the drop on him (as it appears this guy did), I will shoot him. It is as simple as that. It's not about the King's money, it's about preserving innocent human life.

If you stand by that kind of thinking, then you are a hypocrite if you believe that increased CCW will stop active shooters and the like, because by your view, those CCWers should run instead of try to save lives. If you were standing inside Norris Hall that morning where so many kids were killed, with a full-size combat handgun as a CCW, would you really run away given the chance?

Thankfully, the world isn't full of self-centered people who could care less about their neighbors and community. It's pretty sickening to read how little respect some people have for their fellow man.

+3