CCW wounded in shootout with robber

vellnueve · Mar 25, 2009

GSG said:
In the 1970's, the owner of Ken's Steakhouse was drinking while carrying a firearm in his restauraunt, and he got upset that there was a black man inside. He followed him out to his car and shot at him in the parking lot.

He beat the case and got his LTC back.

Not justified at all IMO, but he had a good lawyer. There's more to a shooting than the shooting itself.

Ted got away with murder as well. It happens...

MassMark · Mar 25, 2009

Originally Posted by TonyDedo
So where do you draw the line between not shooting at all, and running around at night in a mask and cape, foiling crimes?

Jose said:
Why must you trot out this ridiculous canard?

Exactly. Frankly TD, I'm surprised by your statements. No one is suggesting that possession of a CCW suddenly flips on the Charles Bronson switch...What some of us are suggesting is that we as a society have moved far beyond a time when we looked out for one another. It leads to the common scenario of a woman being attacked out on a city street and people in their "not my problem - I don't want to get involved" world close their windows and turn up their televisions to deaden the cries of the victim. Some of the comments in this thread are no different really....

I'm troubled that so many would just roll the dice that way, when something could be done. Imagine the bad guy pulls out a gun, demands money, clerk cooperates, scumbag shoots anyway and unloads on the rest of the restaurant to cover his escape? I guess it's okay though - as long as you got out alive... [thinking]

Think it could not have happened? Spend some time on LiveLeak or YouTube. People behind the register are constantly fired upon - even when they comply.

.

TomH · Mar 25, 2009

Jose said:
Some guy shows me a gun in an aggressive manner and I will shoot him, regardless of whether he intends to actually shoot me or just scare me. Same thing if he is doing it to an innocent third party in my presence.

In case you were wondering, I don't know of one state where brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner is not grounds for the application of deadly force to end said threat.

I am not about to hesitate to ask what his intentions are, or give him time to show me.

+1000

Martlet · Mar 25, 2009

MassMark said:
Exactly. Frankly TD, I'm surprised by your statements. No one is suggesting that possession of a CCW suddenly flips on the Charles Bronson switch...What some of us are suggesting is that we as a society have moved far beyond a time when we looked out for one another. It leads to the common scenario of a woman being attacked out on a city street and people in their "not my problem - I don't want to get involved" world close their windows and turn up their televisions to deaden the cries of the victim. Some of the comments in this thread are no different really....

I'm troubled that so many would just roll the dice that way, when something could be done. Imagine the bad guy pulls out a gun, demands money, clerk cooperates, scumbag shoots anyway and unloads on the rest of the restaurant to cover his escape? I guess it's okay though - as long as you got out alive... Think it could not have happened? Spend some time on LiveLeak or YouTube. People behind the register are constantly fired upon - even when they comply.

.

I agree. It isn't just about that, though. It's about actually caring about people, and standing against what is wrong in favor of what is right. Pointing a gun in someone's face, whether you intend to harm them or not, is just wrong. Depriving someone of their property is just wrong. Depriving someone of their liberty, even for a moment, is just wrong.

I don't think I'm protector of the world. I do, however, think I'm a member of my community. It's my equal responsibility to contribute to the social environment I want to live and raise my children in. I stop for accidents where there is no help. I pull over to help people change tires. I've run out of my house in the middle of the night when I've heard cries for help (much to my wife's dread). I'd like to think I'd step in to do what's right in any instance I'm able. Not because I'm a tough guy and savior of the universe, but because if good people don't do good things in difficult times, the bad guys win. I don't want my children, or your children, to grow up in a community where the bad guys win due to the apathy or fear of good guys.

Palladin · Mar 25, 2009

Martlet said:
I agree. It isn't just about that, though. It's about actually caring about people, and standing against what is wrong in favor of what is right. Pointing a gun in someone's face, whether you intend to harm them or not, is just wrong. Depriving someone of their property is just wrong. Depriving someone of their liberty, even for a moment, is just wrong.

I don't think I'm protector of the world. I do, however, think I'm a member of my community. It's my equal responsibility to contribute to the social environment I want to live and raise my children in. I stop for accidents where there is no help. I pull over to help people change tires. I've run out of my house in the middle of the night when I've heard cries for help (much to my wife's dread). I'd like to think I'd step in to do what's right in any instance I'm able. Not because I'm a tough guy and savior of the universe, but because if good people don't do good things in difficult times, the bad guys win. I don't want my children, or your children, to grow up in a community where the bad guys win due to the apathy or fear of good guys.

+1

M1911 · Mar 25, 2009

Jose said:
Why must you trot out this ridiculous canard?

Reading some of the comments here, I don't think it is so ridiculous.

M1911 · Mar 25, 2009

vellnueve said:
If you stand by that kind of thinking, then you are a hypocrite if you believe that increased CCW will stop active shooters and the like, because by your view, those CCWers should run instead of try to save lives.

I don't think it is hypocritical for someone to say that they would probably act differently in a garden variety hold up than in an active shooter situation.

Jose · Mar 25, 2009

M1911 said:
Reading some of the comments here, I don't think it is so ridiculous.

I have yet to read anyone's position that they got a LTC to go looking for trouble to play hero.

I do have now some serious concerns about having some members of the firearms community be part of a jury of my peers should I be involved in a situation such as the one that started this topic.
[thinking]

MassMark · Mar 25, 2009

M1911 said:
I don't think it is hypocritical for someone to say that they would probably act differently in a garden variety hold up than in an active shooter situation.

This instance however, is hardly a "garden variety hold up"... Crowded restaurant, 4pm, gun pointed at clerk. Like I said, thankfully we'll never know what he was going to do next....

Jose said:
I do have now some serious concerns about having some members of the firearms community be part of a jury of my peers should I be involved in a situation such as the one that started this topic.

You're not kidding there brother... [rolleyes]

vellnueve · Mar 25, 2009

I'd agree. Most hold-ups are simply "give me the money" type deals. Gun in face in the middle of the day is not garden variety. If it was a non-violent robbery, I'd probably not intervene.

MassMark · Mar 25, 2009

vellnueve said:
I'd agree. Most hold-ups are simply "give me the money" type deals. Gun in face in the middle of the day is not garden variety. If it was a non-violent robbery, I'd probably not intervene.

Exactly - we're not talking about someone snatch-n-grabbing cash from an open register and taking off for God's sake. We're talking about a thug with a live gun in a crowded establishment...

SteelShooter · Mar 25, 2009

vellnueve said:
I'd agree. Most hold-ups are simply "give me the money" type deals. Gun in face in the middle of the day is not garden variety. If it was a non-violent robbery, I'd probably not intervene.

Agreed on this, it's like the racoon or the possum you see running around during the day, most times there is something wrong with them, injury, rabies etc. they tend to be more aggressive and not aware of what they are doing. Same situation here, during the day, with a gun in a crowded restaurant. He is unstable and you have to assume willing to do anything. And that "clerk' is someones kid. I hope if my kid were ever put into a situation like that, someone would help out.

MassMark · Mar 25, 2009

SteelShooter said:
I hope if my kid were ever put into a situation like that, someone would help out.

Apparently, some would - some would not...Hopefully he or she has luck on their side, as some guns would be heading out the door - not their problem after all you know... [thinking]

M1911 · Mar 25, 2009

MassMark said:
This instance however, is hardly a "garden variety hold up"... Crowded restaurant, 4pm, gun pointed at clerk. Like I said, thankfully we'll never know what he was going to do next....

Sorry, but I disagree. Many hold ups involve the perp pointing a gun at the clerk. Is he going to shoot or not? Dunno. Chances are, he won't. But he might.

And if he has the gun pointed at the clerk's head and I shoot the perp, the perp may reflexively shoot the clerk.

There's not a lot of good choices in such a situation and no guarantees no matter what you do (or don't do).

kiver · Mar 25, 2009

MassMark said:
Exactly - we're not talking about someone snatch-n-grabbing cash from an open register and taking off for God's sake. We're talking about a thug with a live gun in a crowded establishment...

And as we read...It was loaded and he (BG) did pull the trigger...I pray I have the courage to help my fellow man when needed.

This really could have been much worse

vellnueve · Mar 25, 2009

M1911 said:
I don't think it is hypocritical for someone to say that they would probably act differently in a garden variety hold up than in an active shooter situation.

I disagree, although I think I understand why you might say that. Personally, I think someone with that strong of a "save myself at all costs" instinct will do so in any situation.

mikem317 · Mar 25, 2009

Man, this would be one of my worst nightmares come true.

Jaxon · Mar 25, 2009

vellnueve · Mar 25, 2009

mikem317 said:
Man, this would be one of my worst nightmares come true.

Not denying that at all. But thinking it out beforehand may help condition you for a response so that if it ever does happen, you take whatever course of action you favor with minimal hesitation.

JGreen · Mar 25, 2009

JohnM said:
You aren't in danger and neither is your family, however two people are now dead because you failed to act.
QUOTE]

WRONG!!! 2 people are dead because this shithead decided to kill! If the two people in your scenario thought like many of us, they would probably have had the means to protect themselves!

9000S · Mar 25, 2009

Worst Nightmare...

Man, this would be one of my worst nightmares come true.

I know.... I think my value meal would so get delayed... and Dammit!! I said King Size it!!! [smile]

Seriously though it can be a tough call. Hope that CCW guy doesn't get shit on for his actions.

One less piece of violent garbage walking the street cuz of him. He should hold his head high.

MassMark · Mar 25, 2009

JGreen said:
WRONG!!! 2 people are dead because this shithead decided to kill! If the two people in your scenario thought like many of us, they would probably have had the means to protect themselves!

But since they didn't, we should leave them for the wolves??? Hmmmm....

JGreen · Mar 25, 2009

MassMark said:
But since they didn't, we should leave them for the wolves??? Hmmmm....

Thanks for offering to support my wife and son! My mortgage payments are due on the 5th. Jacob wants to be a vet, Tufts is local so that should save you some money..........Visiting hours at the pen are 10am to 2pm. Don't be late because seeing my wife and son is the only thing that keeps me going.

Family - YES
Friends - YES
Strangers - Hmmmmm

MassMark · Mar 25, 2009

JGreen said:
Thanks for offering to support my wife and son! My mortgage payments are due on the 5th. Jacob wants to be a vet, Tufts is local so that should save you some money..........Visiting hours at the pen are 10am to 2pm. Don't be late because seeing my wife and son is the only thing that keeps me going.

Family - YES
Friends - YES
Strangers - Hmmmmm

Well you see, that's just it...That statement speaks to more than just the reluctance of many to step up and step in...Many have placed themselves in a bubble - albeit and important, meaningful one, (family, possessions, self), but a bubble nonetheless. We've become attached more to the tactile than to the connection to others outside our safe little squishy circle. "That 17-year old kid behind the register, (someone else's light trying to get into Tufts), with a gun pointed at his skull is not worthy of my assistance because "I don't know him"...It's a sad statement of where we've come as a society. "Put the windows down dear, pull the shades and turn up the TV - we don't know her"...

Kind of fits in with: "I don't think I can make the Pro 2A Rally on Beacon Hill - my kid's got a soccer game".... [thinking]

Seems we put a price on everything these days - even innocent lives of people "we don't know".... Sad really....

Jose · Mar 25, 2009

9000S said:
Hope that CCW guy doesn't get shit on for his actions.

This was Florida. Money is on him walking scot-free, as he did nothing wrong.

JGreen · Mar 25, 2009

MassMark said:
Well you see, that's just it...That statement speaks to more than just the reluctance of many to step up and step in...Many have placed themselves in a bubble - albeit and important, meaningful one, (family, possessions, self), but a bubble nonetheless. We've become attached more to the tactile than to the connection to others outside our safe little squishy circle. "That 17-year old kid behind the register, (someone else's light trying to get into Tufts), with a gun pointed at his skull is not worthy of my assistance because "I don't know him"...It's a sad statement of where we've come as a society. "Put the windows down dear, pull the shades and turn up the TV - we don't know her"...

Seems we put a price on everything these days - even innocent lives of people "we don't know".... Sad really....

Nobel at best.......But the question still stands.

Martlet · Mar 25, 2009

JGreen said:
Nobel at best.......But the question still stands.

What question? Would I support your family? It depends. Your sarcastic question exemplifies my earlier point. What if it was your son who was mowed down at McDonald's? What if after he, and his friends, were killed, I told you that I likely could have prevented it, but I was so concerned with my own safety that I stood there and watched?

That may sit just fine on your conscience, but not mine. Am I replaceable to my family? I'd like to hope not. Regardless, it's attitudes like that which have allowed communities to sink closer to the cesspool.

RI_John · Mar 25, 2009

JGreen said:
JohnM said:

You aren't in danger and neither is your family, however two people are now dead because you failed to act.
QUOTE]

WRONG!!! 2 people are dead because this shithead decided to kill! If the two people in your scenario thought like many of us, they would probably have had the means to protect themselves!

Click to expand...

I'll respond since you are responding to what I wrote- first of all, I doubt the kid at the register is going to be carrying. And again, I'm not judging anyone here or the shooter in this story, I'm mostly reading here because it's good to imagine yourself in these situations and decide ahead of time where to draw the line. Everyone's line is different.

My line is that if I had the means to protect an innocent stranger from being murdered, I would. If it meant I went to jail, so be it. I don't think that's playing tough guy or pretending I'm batman, it's just ingrained in me.

I've jumped into altercations before (unarmed) to help a stranger, one time it cost me a broken nose, 18 stitches, a trip to the hospital, and a conversation with the police (jumped in to help an elderly man being beaten in a parking lot by 2 BGs who then turned their attention and fists to MY head) I've done stuff like that in the past on instinct. Maybe it's stupid? Maybe it will get me killed if I ever try to save a person in an armed confrontation? Who knows? I hope I never find out- but I am pretty sure where my line is drawn, and it certainly includes innocent strangers.

Jose · Mar 25, 2009

JGreen said:
But the question still stands.

So you do nothing and the clerk gets popped. Now what? Even if you do something now, you are late and late by a second may as well be late by a day.

JGreen · Mar 25, 2009

Martlet said:
What question? Would I support your family? It depends. Your sarcastic question exemplifies my earlier point. What if it was your son who was mowed down at McDonald's? What if after he, and his friends, were killed, I told you that I likely could have prevented it, but I was so concerned with my own safety that I stood there and watched?

That may sit just fine on your conscience, but not mine. Am I replaceable to my family? I'd like to hope not. Regardless, it's attitudes like that which have allowed communities to sink closer to the cesspool.

No sarcasm here Martlet, only honesty. We are great at "what if's". What if my shot went through the BG and hit your son? No thank you. I won't play the what if game.

You need help, I'll help you but my life only goes on the line for friends and family.

CCW wounded in shootout with robber

Jose

Jose

Jose

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