CCW wounded in shootout with robber

[Martlet]

No sarcasm here Martlet, only honesty. We are great at "what if's". What if my shot went through the BG and hit your son? No thank you. I won't play the what if game.

You need help, I'll help you but my life only goes on the line for friends and family.

That's too bad.

Everyone is free to act within their comfort zone. Hopefully, if enough people raise their children correctly and work to change the views of others, people who feel as I do will eventually work to change the face of their tiny zone of influence. Maybe someday we'll reach enough people to make up for people like you.

This is obviously a sore spot for me. I have little tolerance, or use, for people who bang out their existence without feeling care for or obligation to their fellow man.

 

[MassMark]

Nobel at best.......But the question still stands.

How nice it must be to sail down a primrose river - the course always guided by the joy angels...

Back to reality, If you defended the clerk and dropped the bad guy, (don't worry - I'm only being hypothetical) and if you were arrested, convicted and sent to jail, life would change for everyone - especially for the kid you saved.

Your wife would likely have to sell the house, move to a smaller place, work an extra job. Your son would have to apply for scholarships, student loans and grants to get to Tufts. He'd likely have to get a job at Burger King to help pay the bills, where hopefully nothing ever happens, but if it does - I hope someone like me, or many of the people on this board is there to step in and put shit on the line - he had a lot to offer the world after all...You would sit in prison, knowing that myself and many of us out here - like an extended family, would do everything we could to look after your family. We'd hold rallies, shoots and raffles, visit you in Walpole and make sure you have money for the store. Life would go on - not like it was on the primrose river, but it would go on...As painful as your hypothetical trip to prison would be, in those quiet moments, you could look at yourself in the mirror and know you did the right thing. That knowledge would be shared and likely over-appreciated by the life you saved...I cannot imagine the look into the mirror would be quite the same, if you sat hunched over your Whopper With Cheese, thumb-break secure, while an innocent kid got his head splattered all over the soda machine....

You see, we as a species are programmed to persevere. We forget it sometimes when we're tucked into our La-Z-Boys, surfing the widescreen, but we have it within out nature to adapt, change and press on. There is some comfort in fate, as we cannot predict it. If I were afraid how my actions would affect those within my bubble, I would never have jumped out of airplanes - never camped out in the Okavango - lions sleeping outside my tent, (geez I could have been killed). The dignity of risk is a component to who we are and sometimes, just sometimes - we may be called to put it all on the line for the dignity of others...

I feel almost as sad for those who do not act, as I do for those who lie in the wake of inaction....

 

[RI_John]

How nice it must be to sail down a primrose river - the course always guided by the joy angels...

Back to reality, If you defended the clerk and dropped the bad guy, (don't worry - I'm only being hypothetical) and if you were arrested, convicted and sent to jail, life would change for everyone - especially for the kid you saved.

Your wife would likely have to sell the house, move to a smaller place, work and extra job. Your son would have to apply for scholarships, student loans and grants to get to Tufts. He'd likely have to get a job at Burger King to help pay the bills, where hopefully nothing ever happens, but if it does - I hope someone like me, or many of the people on this board is there to step in and put shit on the line - he had a lot to offer the world after all...You would sit in prison, knowing that myself and many of us out here - like an extended family, would do everything we could to look after your family. We'd hold rallies, shoots and raffles, visit you in Walpole and make sure you have money for the store. Life would go on - not like it was on the primrose river, but it would go on...As painful as your hypothetical trip to prison would be, in those quiet moments, you could look at yourself in the mirror and know you did the right thing. That knowledge would be shared and likely over-appreciated by the life you saved...I cannot imagine the look into the mirror would be quite the same, if you sat hunched over your Whopper With Cheese, thumb-break secure, while an innocent kid got his head splattered all over the soda machine....

You see, we as a species are programmed to persevere. We forget it sometimes when we're tucked into our La-Z-Boys, surfing the widescreen, but we have it within out nature to adapt, change and press on. There is some comfort in fate, as we cannot predict it. If I were afraid how my actions would affect those within my bubble, I would never have jumped out of airplanes - never camped out in the Okavango - lions sleeping outside my tent, (geez I could have been killed). The dignity of risk is a component to who we are and sometimes, just sometimes - we may be called to put it all on the line for the dignity of others...

I feel almost as sad for those who do not act, as I do for those who lie in the wake of inaction....

+2

 

[Martlet]

How nice it must be to sail down a primrose river - the course always guided by the joy angels...

Back to reality, If you defended the clerk and dropped the bad guy, (don't worry - I'm only being hypothetical) and if you were arrested, convicted and sent to jail, life would change for everyone - especially for the kid you saved.

Your wife would likely have to sell the house, move to a smaller place, work and extra job. Your son would have to apply for scholarships, student loans and grants to get to Tufts. He'd likely have to get a job at Burger King to help pay the bills, where hopefully nothing ever happens, but if it does - I hope someone like me, or many of the people on this board is there to step in and put shit on the line - he had a lot to offer the world after all...You would sit in prison, knowing that myself and many of us out here - like an extended family, would do everything we could to look after your family. We'd hold rallies, shoots and raffles, visit you in Walpole and make sure you have money for the store. Life would go on - not like it was on the primrose river, but it would go on...As painful as your hypothetical trip to prison would be, in those quiet moments, you could look at yourself in the mirror and know you did the right thing. That knowledge would be shared and likely over-appreciated by the life you saved...I cannot imagine the look into the mirror would be quite the same, if you sat hunched over your Whopper With Cheese, thumb-break secure, while an innocent kid got his head splattered all over the soda machine....

You see, we as a species are programmed to persevere. We forget it sometimes when we're tucked into our La-Z-Boys, surfing the widescreen, but we have it within out nature to adapt, change and press on. There is some comfort in fate, as we cannot predict it. If I were afraid how my actions would affect those within my bubble, I would never have jumped out of airplanes - never camped out in the Okavango - lions sleeping outside my tent, (geez I could have been killed). The dignity of risk is a component to who we are and sometimes, just sometimes - we may be called to put it all on the line for the dignity of others...

I feel almost as sad for those who do not act, as I do for those who lie in the wake of inaction....

+4 gazillion.

 

[JGreen]

Thank goodness action speaks louder than words.

 

[vellnueve]

This was Florida. Money is on him walking scot-free, as he did nothing wrong.

I agree completely. After he recovers (hopefully he does) he should be home free after the usual investigation.

 

[vellnueve]

Thank goodness action speaks louder than words.

Indeed it does. Martlet has in fact acted in such a way that he may have to die to protect strangers.

 

[calsdad]

"I want a liter of cola!"

Damn burger punk!

 

[NOVA]

Originally Posted by scooterguy View Post
Would you guys do anything differently in this situation?

I wouldn't intervene. Sorry, I like you guys but I do not owe you my life nor does anyone owe me theirs. So that Burger King doesn't lose $55.00? They messed up one too many of my orders to risk my life so they don't lose a handful of cash.

 

[CrossFrire]

Personally I'm not planning on getting into a gun fight over the Kings money even though I really like his commercials. Now if the bad guy threatend me with deadly force........he/she would be dispatched.

Without being there, it is difficult to state the the CCW holder acted properly in my opinion.

Have you seen those new BK commercials?
That BK character is pretty creepy if you ask me.
I don't know if I'd stick my neck out for him unless it was clear someone's life was in danger.

Mass residents had reason to hate and fear their government. Given the limited info in the story, if it happened here and the CCW shooter was NOT in direct emminent danger from the BG I can see the Government charging him on the basis that he had initiated agression against the BG.
The Rulers of Mass do NOT accept self defense as a natural Right and have no objection to arresting and convicting innocent people to make their ideological point. I have no doubt in my mind that were orders ever given, the police in mass WOULD fire on the people.
Until the Sheeple here really stand up and take it back they will stay enslaved.

 

[vellnueve]

Originally Posted by scooterguy View Post
Would you guys do anything differently in this situation?

I wouldn't intervene. Sorry, I like you guys but I do not owe you my life nor does anyone owe me theirs. So that Burger King doesn't lose $55.00? They messed up one too many of my orders to risk my life so they don't lose a handful of cash.

It's not about the freakin' money!

 

[NOVA]

It's not about the freakin' money!

It's all about the money. That's what a ROBBERY is. There was not one shot until someone decided to be a hero and put everyone at risk. Someone points a gun at me, they'll get a bullet for it, someone points a gun at someone else for a buck, leave it alone.

 

[M1911]

I disagree, although I think I understand why you might say that. Personally, I think someone with that strong of a "save myself at all costs" instinct will do so in any situation.

In the vast majority of robberies, even when the perp displays a gun, no one is shot. It can be argued that the safest course of action might be to give the perp the money and let him leave. (Clearly, the problem is that you don't know what the perp is going to do.) You can argue that watching and waiting in such a circumstance is playing the odds.

In contrast, once a perp starts shooting people, waiting and hoping he'll just leave is clearly not the safest course of action.

 

[M1911]

i wouldn't have a dead clerk on my hands

The dead clerk would be on the hands of the perp.

 

[M1911]

Nobel at best.......But the question still stands.

Yup. Neither the clerk, nor the owner of BK, nor BK corporate is going to pay for the ccw guy's medical bills. They won't take care of him and his family if he can't return to work. If it was here in MA (instead of FL), they wouldn't pay for his defense attorney.

 

[red87930]

This has been an interesting read. Makes you think about all the options and reprecussions of each. One subject that has not been mentioned is the civil suit that would surely follow when the BG's mother, father, brothers and sisters, and who knows maybe even a baby momma or 2 and his loving sweet gramma come out to make claim on a large percentage of everything you have worked hard to accumulate to improve your families comfort. After all the perp was just about to turn the corner and change his way of life and discover the cure for cancer.

I like think I probably would have shot the BG too but unfortunately the good guys pain (mental and financial) will last much longer than the miserable scumbags did or would have even if he were apprehended instead of eliminated. Which is a sad situation.

 

[MassMark]

In the vast majority of robberies, even when the perp displays a gun, no one is shot.

Cite please?

 

[Raoul Duke]

I guess if this were solely "about the money", high-tailing it out the door would be a no-brainer. In my view however, this speaks to more than just the Benjamins.

The criminal element is emboldened because they have two things driving them: A desire to exploit the weak for their own gain and the knowledge that John Q. Public, in most cases will be heading for the door. It's good odds for them in their mission to terrorize and prey on those who cannot defend themselves. The "it's not my problem" mentality - prevalent in today's society, is a ticket to ride for the dregs...

If more people not only refused to be victims, but also reached within and re-ignited a long-dormant sense of chivalry - a connection to their fellow man, rather than an instinct to look away, you may see the tables turn a bit. Until then, the criminal element will continue to run carte-blanche through our ranks - with the knowledge that folks will generally didi mao, rather than stand and fight the ilk...

This is perhaps the most perfect post I've come across on NES lately. +100

 

[Jose]

One subject that has not been mentioned is the civil suit that would surely follow when the BG's mother, father, brothers and sisters, and who knows maybe even a baby momma or 2 and his loving sweet gramma come out to make claim on a large percentage of everything you have worked hard to accumulate to improve your families comfort.

That is statutorily impossible in Florida, where this happened, and in many other states. Mine included.

 

[Raoul Duke]

I will stop and help absolutely anyone right up until the point where it might impact the rest of my life.

For some people, not helping an individual in need might well affect (impact) them for the rest of their life.

 

[Martlet]

For some people, not helping an individual in need might well affect (impact) them for the rest of their life.

Honestly, I can't wrap my brain around it. I can't picture being so scared, callous, or uncaring that I would sit there and watch someone be victimized. I wouldn't be able to look my wife in the eye.

 

[MassMark]

Honestly, I can't wrap my brain around it. I can't picture being so scared, callous, or uncaring that I would sit there and watch someone be victimized. I wouldn't be able to look my wife in the eye.

Me too neither...

It does not speak to how far we've come, but how far we've gone as a society...I sat here last night reading and responding to this thread and my mind was wandering into dark places, trying not to imagine that scenario, but not being able to avoid it. I can't for the life of me imagine sitting there hunkered down in my booth sweating into my milkshake, eyeballing for an exit...it's just not in my nature and I hope it never is. I was interrupted briefly by a video clip on TruTv of a guy getting stabbed on a bus and everyone, (including the driver) bailing out as the scumbag slashed and stabbed the victim. There were 20-people at least on that bus and the perps back was to all of them. One guy had a huge briefcase and could have clearly smashed this a**h***'s head in - no one did a thing - not their problem I guess - it was sickening.

I then imagined my daughter standing at the cash register with a gun in her face, scared for her life, shaking, crying, fumbling for the right key to open the drawer. I imagined her handing over the cash, hands trembling and the perp shooting her anyway, (as they OFTEN do) and then opening up on the restaurant to make his escape. I then imagined a half dozen people with weapons holstered, running for the nearest exit, hiding under their table or cowering over their french fries....Not their problem - they didn't know her....

I shut the computer down, went in, kissed Sara on the forehead and fixed her blankets....

 

[vellnueve]

Honestly, I can't wrap my brain around it. I can't picture being so scared, callous, or uncaring that I would sit there and watch someone be victimized. I wouldn't be able to look my wife in the eye.

Exactly. If I ever stood by and watched someone get killed when the power to prevent it was in my hands... I'm not so sure I'd be able to live with that.

In my opinion, the moment the robber shows a gun, it becomes a life-threatening situation for the clerk. At that point, shooting the robber is fully justifiable legally, fully justifiable morally, and ethically, and is, in my opinion, the correct course of action.

I don't know, maybe I was raised and taught, at home and at school, that people should be responsible and help each other out. I guess that's a fallacy.

 

[RI_John]

Me too neither...

It does not speak to how far we've come, but how far we've gone as a society...I sat here last night reading and responding to this thread and my mind was wandering into dark places, trying not to imagine that scenario, but not being able to avoid it. I can't for the life of me imagine sitting there hunkered down in my booth sweating into my milkshake, eyeballing for an exit...it's just not in my nature and I hope it never is. I was interrupted briefly by a video clip on TruTv of a guy getting stabbed on a bus and everyone, (including the driver) bailing out as the scumbag slashed and stabbed the victim. There were 20-people at least on that bus and the perps back was to all of them. One guy had a huge briefcase and could have clearly smashed this a**h***'s head in - no one did a thing - not their problem I guess - it was sickening.

I then imagined my daughter standing at the cash register with a gun in her face, scared for her life, shaking, crying, fumbling for the right key to open the drawer. I imagined her handing over the cash, hands trembling and the perp shooting her anyway, (as they OFTEN do) and then opening up on the restaurant to make his escape. I then imagined a half dozen people with weapons holstered, running for the nearest exit, hiding under their table or cowering over their french fries....Not their problem - they didn't know her....

I shut the computer down, went in, kissed Sara on the forehead and fixed her blankets....

I'm with you 100%. It has NOTHING TO DO WITH GUNS either. Absolutely nothing. Nothing to do with CCW at all. It has to do with an attitude or mindset. It's the difference on 9/11 between the first three flights where the passengers sat docile like sheep being led to the slaughter and Flight 93 where people died fighting. You can say those on Flight 93 only fought because they themselves were in peril, but that is a cynical way of looking at it. I look at it as those on Flight 93 were awakened from their lifelong slumber by learning firsthand on their phones about what happened on the other flights and what was going to happen to them if they sat and did nothing. 9/11 woke A LOT of people up to the reality of evil and violent men with bad intentions.

What do you think would happen NOW on a plane if some terrorist tried to storm the cockpit with a box cutter? We all know the answer. If only that attitude could spread throughout our entire country to situations beyond airplanes and Muslim terrorists, America would be a much, much better place.

 

[vellnueve]

+3 billion

 

[M1911]

What do you think would happen NOW on a plane if some terrorist tried to storm the cockpit with a box cutter? We all know the answer. If only that attitude could spread throughout our entire country to situations beyond airplanes and Muslim terrorists, America would be a much, much better place.

Sorry, but I think you are equating two different types of events that are very different -- apples to kumquats.

In most robberies, the perps goal is to get the money and amscray. Most perps don't want to die and would rather not kill someone. In many robberies, you may have a chance to get away without intervening. Even if you don't get away, the perp may choose not to harm you.

In contrast, on 9/11 the goal of the perps was to kill everyone on the plane and many more on the ground. They didn't want to get away. If the passengers did nothing they would die and many on the ground would die. If they passengers attacked, then they would probably still die (but might possibly live) and chances are far fewer on the ground would die.

And finally, as has been pointed out on other boards, it is a lot easier to start a gunfight than it is to finish one.

 

[Jay G]

Honestly, I can't wrap my brain around it. I can't picture being so scared, callous, or uncaring that I would sit there and watch someone be victimized. I wouldn't be able to look my wife in the eye.

No offense, Martlet, but you don't have kids.

I do. My first and most important responsibility is to them. Plain and simple.

I can't be the father they need if I'm behind bars. And that's likely where I'd wind up if I intervened in a robbery here in MA.

It's not scared, callous, or uncaring - it's a cold, hard fact thrust upon us by our nanny state that "self-help" is discouraged, and, quite frankly, your assertion is insulting. We're talking - very specifically - about the ramifications of jumping in to help as a MA resident in the people's Republik of MA. There's a high probability that you would go to jail. There's a big probability that you would be sued.

There's a very good chance that you would stand to lose every single thing you've ever worked for in your life, just to help out a stranger. Some people, G-d bless you, have made the decision that they are willing to take that risk. Power to you. I'll step up right now and say if you're ever in that position I will do everything in my power to help you out.

But you have NO RIGHT to cast aspersions on those of us who will not gamble our freedom on a roll of the dice here in MA. I'll be DAMNED if I'm going to see my kids 2 hours a week from behind bars as a result of my actions helping someone else. Maybe I am callous. But I'm also a realist, and I can foresee very dire results from the action you support in this state.

In a clear-cut case of life-or-death, say, the perp just starts shooting, you bet your ass I'd do anything in my power.

But just watching a strong-arm robbery? That's much harder to gauge sitting in front of my computer monitor. I would absolutely have to be there, and the vast majority of respondents here have said the same thing.

We need more info. We need to be there. We need to see the look on the goblin's face - is he just some punk looking for quick cash, or does he look desperate? Is he waving the gun wildly? Has he just flashed it quickly in hopes that it will scare the clerk sufficiently?

I will not make a blanket statement that I would or wouldn't jump in. Not based on the facts I've seen so far in this case. I will state that, yes, I will act immediately if there's the tiniest chance that me or mine would be hurt; I will also state that if there is a clear and present danger to all and sundry as I see it I will also act.

But I will temper my actions based on the current laws, political climate, and general inclinations of the state of MA. Call me selfish. Call me callous. I don't f***ing care. My first and foremost obligation is to keep my family safe, and I can't do that if I'm behind bars, or I've lost everything I own in a civil suit.

Flame on.

 

[M1911]

Jay G: +1

 

[vellnueve]

Even if you don't get away, the perp may choose not to harm you.

I'm not going to depend on the discretion of the perp.

 

[TonyDedo]

No offense, Martlet, but you don't have kids.

I do. My first and most important responsibility is to them. Plain and simple.

I can't be the father they need if I'm behind bars. And that's likely where I'd wind up if I intervened in a robbery here in MA.

It's not scared, callous, or uncaring - it's a cold, hard fact thrust upon us by our nanny state that "self-help" is discouraged, and, quite frankly, your assertion is insulting. We're talking - very specifically - about the ramifications of jumping in to help as a MA resident in the people's Republik of MA. There's a high probability that you would go to jail. There's a big probability that you would be sued.

There's a very good chance that you would stand to lose every single thing you've ever worked for in your life, just to help out a stranger. Some people, G-d bless you, have made the decision that they are willing to take that risk. Power to you. I'll step up right now and say if you're ever in that position I will do everything in my power to help you out.

But you have NO RIGHT to cast aspersions on those of us who will not gamble our freedom on a roll of the dice here in MA. I'll be DAMNED if I'm going to see my kids 2 hours a week from behind bars as a result of my actions helping someone else. Maybe I am callous. But I'm also a realist, and I can foresee very dire results from the action you support in this state.

In a clear-cut case of life-or-death, say, the perp just starts shooting, you bet your ass I'd do anything in my power.

But just watching a strong-arm robbery? That's much harder to gauge sitting in front of my computer monitor. I would absolutely have to be there, and the vast majority of respondents here have said the same thing.

We need more info. We need to be there. We need to see the look on the goblin's face - is he just some punk looking for quick cash, or does he look desperate? Is he waving the gun wildly? Has he just flashed it quickly in hopes that it will scare the clerk sufficiently?

I will not make a blanket statement that I would or wouldn't jump in. Not based on the facts I've seen so far in this case. I will state that, yes, I will act immediately if there's the tiniest chance that me or mine would be hurt; I will also state that if there is a clear and present danger to all and sundry as I see it I will also act.

But I will temper my actions based on the current laws, political climate, and general inclinations of the state of MA. Call me selfish. Call me callous. I don't f***ing care. My first and foremost obligation is to keep my family safe, and I can't do that if I'm behind bars, or I've lost everything I own in a civil suit.

Flame on.

+1,000