Carrying in car question

[News Shooter]

forgive me if this has been discussed before, but i have a specific question.
Here is the MA law about carrying with a Class A in the car:

"No person carrying a loaded firearm (i.e. handgun) under a Class A License to carry firearms... shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person."

Question: Does this include under the drivers seat and/or in the console???

Thanks in advance

 

[Lynne]

Personally, I would never carry it in the console, or the glove, especially if that's where you keep the car's reg.

I know some folks who have a rig set up under their seat (driver's side) and put it in there while they're driving, however, I'm not Jesse or Darius, so I won't venture to say if that falls under "direct control" or not.

Mine never comes out of the holster, and I make sure it's accessible if I need it while driving.

 

[YogSothoth]

I had a similar question about what constitutes "direct control" when in a car. You may find some answers in thread:

http://northeastshooters.com/viewtopic.php?t=274

Generally I think you're looking at: it must be in reach to constitute direct control. However, since this is a grey area and could be up to LEO's discretion, you'd be much safer to follow Lynne's setup and keep it holstered on your person and accessible.

 

[Cross-X]

Like so many things in the law, the definition of "direct control" varies with context.

If you are alone in your car, the areas of direct control arguably include everything that is within your wingspan, including areas such as your seat, underneath your seat, between the two front seats, and possibly even under the front passenger seat.

You could also properly claim that the center console and glove box are within your wingspan, and thus within your direct control. As Lynne has said, this is needlessly risky because of the danger of theft, or inadvertent exposure in connection with a traffic stop.

Having said all of this, I would never advise transporting a firearm in a car via any method other than carrying on your own body. Your choice of on body carry system is up to you -- waist-level carry, inside or outside your waistband, fanny pack, tee shirt holster, Thunderwear, etc.

When you start transporting guns other than via on the body carry, problems may arise. One big issue is the situation that results when you accidently leave your gun in the car. Since it is unsecured, and also probably loaded, you have unwittingly committed a crime.

As we all know, in Massachusetts, the only way for a properly licensed person to leave a handgun in the car is to unload it, and store it locked in the trunk, in a locked case, or inside some other secure container.

There are also issues of whether your unsecured gun might cause problems for you during a traffic stop, or if it came loose in an accident, or otherwise became exposed at an embarrasing time.

Too many of my clients have found themselves in criminal trouble because they chose to transport a handgun inside the passenger compartment of their car or truck, did not unload and lock it in a case or the trunk or other container, and then accidentally or intentionally left it in their vehicle.

The choice is yours when it comes to methods of transporting your handgun, but please make sure you choose carefully!

--Darius Arbabi
www.massgunlaw.com

 

[dwarven1]

Along these lines, I'm thinking that the reason someone would want to know this is that their carry system is not comfortable in the car. Something to consider when buying a car is what kind of seats it has, and whether your holster fits comfortably when you're behind the wheel.

Example - my Subaru has bucket-type seats, with the edges of the seats coming forward a little to hold you in while turning. Unfortunately, it also presses on the butt of my gun while seated; I wind up adjusting it a little forward, and then having to adjust the gun back when I get out. If I were to do it again, I might think twice about getting the trim level that included these seats.

Ross

 

[News Shooter]

OK excellent advice

Now, just a point of clarification please. I have heard several opinions on this. If you unload your firearm and put it into a locked truck, that complies with the law does it not? In other words, it does not also have to be inside a locked container INSIDE the trunk?
Thanks

 

[Cross-X]

I suppose if one carries lots in the car, shoulder and cross-draw holster might have immediate appeal.

 

[Cross-X]

Re: OK excellent advice

Now, just a point of clarification please. I have heard several opinions on this. If you unload your firearm and put it into a locked truck, that complies with the law does it not? In other words, it does not also have to be inside a locked container INSIDE the trunk?
Thanks

Yes, you have got it exactly right. In Massachusetts, if you are going to leave a firearm in your car or truck, you have to put your unloaded firearm (by firearm I mean a handgun) in your choice of a locked in the trunk OR locked in a case OR locked in some other secure container.

This law is actually quite simple once you know what it is.

--Darius Arbabi

 

[M1911]

Note, however, that the back of an SUV is not a "locked a trunk." At least, SCOTUS has determined that on other cases (not directly ruled on MA gun laws...).

 

[Len-2A Training]

Note, however, that the back of an SUV is not a "locked a trunk." At least, SCOTUS has determined that on other cases (not directly ruled on MA gun laws...).

Right and it is generally accepted that in those cases, you use a locked case and put it behind the rear seat, out of reach of the driver (and if possible, passengers as well) and you should be OK.

 

[Cross-X]

So long as the gun is unloaded, and the case is locked, there is no need to keep it out of anyone's reach in order to comply with Massachusetts' secure firearms storage law.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Darius, the advice to keep it out of reach of the driver and passengers was given by Chief Ron Glidden.

It wasn't stated as "law" but a way to avoid potential conflict with any LEO that might stop the gun owner and have different thoughts on the matter. Non-trivial point is that if Chief Glidden is instructing LEOs at the police academy that they should expect them cased and locked out of reach, said LEO is likely to hassle anyone found transporting differently . . . right or wrong a hassle with the police is never a pleasant experience for those that are hassled!

 

[Cross-X]

Chief Glidden is a wonderful man, and an incredible advocate for the rights of gun owners.

Still, it is important to clarify for the readers of this forum exactly what the law requires of them, and to separate and distinguish this from that which is merely good advice.

The crucial point is to know what state law requires before branching out into any fine tuning for other practical purposes.

One of the reasons why so many people misunderstand our gun laws may be because some well-intentioned people when discussing Massachusetts' state law add requirements and restrictions that don't actually exist.

Darius

 

[Adam_MA]

Question...
How about a rifle, secured with a trigger, or cable lock inside one of those soft cases? Would that meet the requirement?

Thanks
Adam

 

[Chris]

Long guns:

Believe it or not, but non large Capacity long guns can be carried in a vehicle just about any way you want so long as they are unloaded. Large Capacity is defined as Semi-Auto with a Magazine or can accept a magazine greater than 10 rounds. (except tubular .22 magazines)

As soon as that vehicle rolls onto a Public Way, another law requires a case, but this is ONLY required on a public way.

So long as the gun is in transport and not storage, no lock is required by law.

This said, I highly doubt most officers know every law, and using a case and lock at all times is probably a good idea. Especially since if you do have to stop, your tansport becomes storage and different rules apply.

Large Capacity long arms need to be transported as mentioned for handguns above. Case and lock need to be involved. No statement in the law defines how that case and lock must be done, only that they must be there.

To make things really simple for students, I highly recommend locking cases. An unloaded gun in a case that has a lock complies with all the various requirements.

------------------

Speaking of law vs advice, another rumor I've heard (and maybe Darius or Len can confirm or deny) is that once in the field, it is actually illegal to lean or place a loaded rifle or shotgun on your vehicle. In my opinion the rule requiring "loaded only while engaged in hunting" seems to apply here, but I can't seem to find any 'Law' that would prohibit it.

 

[Lynne]

Chief Glidden is a wonderful man, and an incredible advocate for the rights of gun owners.

Still, it is important to clarify for the readers of this forum exactly what the law requires of them, and to separate and distinguish this from that which is merely good advice.

The crucial point is to know what state law requires before branching out into any fine tuning for other practical purposes.

One of the reasons why so many people misunderstand our gun laws may be because some well-intentioned people when discussing Massachusetts' state law add requirements and restrictions that don't actually exist.

Darius

I was going to say Cross-X is correct, but then again, considering your line of work, of course you would be! [lol] However, what Ed and I do is tell people what the law states, THEN we tell them if they aren't sure, to be as conservative in their reading of it as is humanly possible. If they feel the need to, take it one step further to be on the safe side. If they aren't sure about something, they can call us or call GOAL to get a specific answer on something.

 

[Cross-X]

Chief Glidden is a wonderful man, and an incredible advocate for the rights of gun owners.

Still, it is important to clarify for the readers of this forum exactly what the law requires of them, and to separate and distinguish this from that which is merely good advice.

The crucial point is to know what state law requires before branching out into any fine tuning for other practical purposes.

One of the reasons why so many people misunderstand our gun laws may be because some well-intentioned people when discussing Massachusetts' state law add requirements and restrictions that don't actually exist.

Darius

I was going to say Cross-X is correct, but then again, considering your line of work, of course you would be! [lol] However, what Ed and I do is tell people what the law states, THEN we tell them if they aren't sure, to be as conservative in their reading of it as is humanly possible. If they feel the need to, take it one step further to be on the safe side. If they aren't sure about something, they can call us or call GOAL to get a specific answer on something.

Lynne, if this approach works well for you, and for your students, more power to you.


For me, I just try to resist the temptation to tell my impressionable students and clients more than they need to know.

 

[Lynne]

Lynne, if this approach works well for you, and for your students, more power to you.


For me, I just try to resist the temptation to tell my impressionable students and clients more than they need to know.

I just reread what I typed - I left out that we do cover the laws they need to be aware of. But sometimes a different situation arises that we did not specifically discuss, so that's what I meant about them seeing what the law states and then, if they aren't 100% positive they understand it - take the most conservative route, or call and find out what it means. (It was in my head, it just didn't get typed. )

 

[traveler57]

Still, it is important to clarify for the readers of this forum exactly what the law requires of them, and to separate and distinguish this from that which is merely good advice.

The crucial point is to know what state law requires before branching out into any fine tuning for other practical purposes.

One of the reasons why so many people misunderstand our gun laws may be because some well-intentioned people when discussing Massachusetts' state law add requirements and restrictions that don't actually exist.

Darius

As a new gun owner in Mass I have to agree with Cross-X. I started shooting (NOT in Mass) when I was eight years old and owned guns since 12. Now as a resident of the Republic of Mass, I really only want to know the LAW and not just people's well-meaning opinions.

After knowing Darius and a few other top trainers only a few months and then listening to "friends" about firearms, it is not so clear here in Mass. I am continuely trying to sort out what is LAW and what is just good sense offered by good people. And the "carrying a firearm in the trunk" type questions are a perfect example of this problem. But I agree that dealing with a local LEO in Mass without trouble means using good sense.

As long as people clarify if they know the law or are just given some good advice, I'm okay and I actually learn something. And I for one am thankful for all the knowledge that I can learn from others.

 

[wheelgun]

Like so many things in the law, the definition of "direct control" varies with context.


As we all know, in Massachusetts, the only way for a properly licensed person to leave a handgun in the car is to unload it, and store it locked in the trunk, in a locked case, or inside some other secure container.

For holders of LTC- A:

OK, I'm aware of the laws stating you have to be under direct control of the firearm in a vehicle. And I know that high cap rifles have to be transported unloaded and locked in a box or the trunk.

But where does MGL say that a HANDGUN (especially low-cap) when locked in a box or the trunk of an unattended vehicle also has to be UNLOADED? That law seems to only apply to high cap rifles.

I'm gonna go back and peruse the MGL some more.......

 

[sksguns]

So I have my rifles, large capacity and otherwise, locked in soft cases (the zippers thrugh the lops and a cable lock through the hole in the zipper) with trigger locks when I drive to and from the range. My ammo is in metal military style ammo boxes (not locked)

All is either in the way back of my suv or in the trunk of my car depending on the vehicle I take to the range that day.

Anything illegal about this?

 

[wheelgun]

So I have my rifles, large capacity and otherwise, locked in soft cases (the zippers thrugh the lops and a cable lock through the hole in the zipper) with trigger locks when I drive to and from the range. My ammo is in metal military style ammo boxes (not locked)

All is either in the way back of my suv or in the trunk of my car depending on the vehicle I take to the range that day.

Anything illegal about this?

I assume you're asking about Massachusetts law.

If it's high cap rifle it has to be in a locked box or the trunk. A soft case will probably be frowned upon and may get you into trouble. I use a plastic Bushmaster case, which isn't great either, but I think it's a step up from a soft case.

The presence of a trigger lock is technically irrelevant because the law does not require one in such circumstances. However, it may affect the opinion of the judge if you ever go to court, who knows.

The ammo does not have to locked up. But the high cap rifles have to be unloaded.

And of course if you have high cap rifles you better have an LTC-A.

Here you go:

SALE OF FIREARMS

Chapter 140: Section 131C. Carrying of firearms in a vehicle

Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.

(d) The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) any officer, agent or employee of the commonwealth or any state or the United States; (ii) any member of the military or other service of any state or of the United States; (iii) any duly authorized law enforcement officer, agent or employee of any municipality of the commonwealth; provided, however, that any such person described in clauses (i) to (iii), inclusive, is authorized by a competent authority to carry or possess the weapon so carried or possessed and is acting within the scope of his duties.

(e) A conviction of a violation of this section shall be reported forthwith by the court or magistrate to the licensing authority who shall immediately revoke the card or license of the person so convicted. No new such card or license may be issued to any such person until one year after the date of revocation.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Wrong . . . hi-cap rifles or hi-cap rifle mags only require a LTC-B.

Soft case is legal as long as it is locked. Agree someone could make trouble, but that is also true for hard cases. [Trigger locks are only "valid" for "storage", NOT for transport.]

ALL long guns must be unloaded in any vehicle at all times.

All handguns must be either under the direct control of a LTC holder OR unloaded and locked up just like any hi-cap rifle.

 

[wheelgun]

Wrong . . . hi-cap rifles or hi-cap rifle mags only require a LTC-B.

RIght, you got me.

All handguns must be either under the direct control of a LTC holder OR unloaded and locked up just like any hi-cap rifle.

Now where in MGL does it say that for LTC-A handguns have to be unloaded when they're locked up? I can see that it effectively states that for LTC-B, but not for LTC-A.

Here's what I interpret from section 131c:

LTC-A:
1. Handguns must be under control at all times. (per parag. A)
2. Handguns must be locked in box/trunk when unattended (to meet parag. A), but nothing says they must be unloaded.
3. Large cap rifles or shotguns must be unloaded and locked in box or trunk at all times. (per parag. C)

LTC-B:
1. All firearms must be unloaded and locked in box or trunk at all times. (per parag. B)

What am I missing?

 

[Len-2A Training]

The section title in Ron Glidden's book for C. 140 S. 131C (b) is titled "Transporting Firearms While Not Under Direct Control of by Class 'B' Licensee"

I have NOT verified this title with MGLs on the state website, but if true that would backup what I stated.

In addition, in Ron's "cliff notes" for that section:

- (Note # 3 for the 9th Edition) states that they must all be unloaded and locked while being transported but not under the direct control of a licensee.

- (Note # 8 for the 9th Edition) states that they must all be unloaded and locked while unattended in a MV ("stored").

So, even if it isn't technically written in MGLs this way, that IS the way it is being TAUGHT to LEOs in the police academy (this is a text used in the firearms class) and in Ron's seminar for licensing authorities.

 

[sksguns]

I assume you're asking about Massachusetts law.

If it's high cap rifle it has to be in a locked box or the trunk. A soft case will probably be frowned upon and may get you into trouble. I use a plastic Bushmaster case, which isn't great either, but I think it's a step up from a soft case.

The presence of a trigger lock is technically irrelevant because the law does not require one in such circumstances. However, it may affect the opinion of the judge if you ever go to court, who knows.

The ammo does not have to locked up. But the high cap rifles have to be unloaded.

And of course if you have high cap rifles you better have an LTC-A.

Here you go:

SALE OF FIREARMS

Chapter 140: Section 131C. Carrying of firearms in a vehicle

Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(b) No person carrying a firearm under a Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.

(d) The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) any officer, agent or employee of the commonwealth or any state or the United States; (ii) any member of the military or other service of any state or of the United States; (iii) any duly authorized law enforcement officer, agent or employee of any municipality of the commonwealth; provided, however, that any such person described in clauses (i) to (iii), inclusive, is authorized by a competent authority to carry or possess the weapon so carried or possessed and is acting within the scope of his duties.

(e) A conviction of a violation of this section shall be reported forthwith by the court or magistrate to the licensing authority who shall immediately revoke the card or license of the person so convicted. No new such card or license may be issued to any such person until one year after the date of revocation.

Sorry, yes it would be in Mass and all my stuff is always unloaded during transport unless I'm carrying and n that case it would be in a holster on my person and nowhere else ever when loaded but that's just me.


I assume the following is referring to what I am asking:

"(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000.

Nothing mentioned about a "hard case". Am I missing something? Otherwise I need to go purchase a couple...lol

 

[Len-2A Training]

No legal requirements for a hard case. See my comments in a prior reply.

Well, it looks like Chief Glidden did a "reach" in titling the section on transporting guns with a LTC-A. BUT that is what he's teaching LEOs, so expect to be prosecuted based on his book and teachings regardless of who is right or not.

 

[sksguns]

No legal requirements for a hard case. See my comments in a prior reply.

Well, it looks like Chief Glidden did a "reach" in titling the section on transporting guns with a LTC-A. BUT that is what he's teaching LEOs, so expect to be prosecuted based on his book and teachings regardless of who is right or not.

Thank you.

 

[Lynne]

Since most LEO's do NOT know all the firearms laws, one would suggest that you take the most conservative approach possible. In other words, lock the gun (unloaded), lock the case and make sure they aren't accessible by anyone. Ammo doesn't need to be locked up, but I would suggest it's carried in a shooting bag or sumpthin so it's not in plain sight.

 

[Executive]

I drive a pick-up truck with a locking tool storage box mounted behind the cab. Would this box meet the requirement of a "locked container"? Or do I also have to put firearms in a locked box inside this tool box?