Can I buy a Non-EOPS Handgun if it was previously legally owned by an LEO in MA?

[Hanwei]

So I just picked up a beautiful Kimber Elite Carry from a shop in MA a few days ago and this issue has nagged at me to the point that I need to clear it up. Or at least see what you all had to say.

My Situation: The guys behind the counter at the shop said that this Kimber was purchased in MA by an LEO (only LEO's/Military can purchase Kimbers in MA), he got bored of the gun, and sold it to the store (or it was on consignment, I don't remember).

They explained to me that this Kimber is now free for any Joe Schmoe with the right License to purchase. The fact that it's not on the EOPS list no longer applies since it was owned by an LEO, a MA resident, and is now just considered a MA resident-to-MA resident private sale.

So are they correct? Or did this shop just sell me a Kimber that I cannot own legally here in MA?

FYI: I have a MA Class A LTC Rest: T&H.

Thanks in advance guys. I just want reassurance that this is okay for me to own. And if it turns out not to be, what I need to do with this Kimber since I do not want to be responsible for owning an illegal firearm.

H

 

[TomH]

I believe that is legal, but in your case it doesn't matter. If it isn't legal the fault is with the shop that sold it to you, not you. I believe you can keep whatever a shop sells you legally and they take the blame.

 

[Hanwei]

wow, thanks for the quick reply!

Assuming it's legal, what would I do in this situation:

I'm pulled over by a LEO for a standard traffic violation and I inform him that I am on my way to the range, and have the pistol stored unloaded, and safely locked up in the trunk. This is what I was taught to do when in possession of a firearm, to inform the LEO.

Let's say that LEO wants a look at my pistol, and he says that the Kimber is an illegal gun to own in MA? (him not knowing of the legal circumstances under which I came into ownership of the Kimber).

How does one "prove" to the LEO that it is, in fact, legal for me to have that particular Kimber? Do I ask the LEO to run the serial numbers to confirm its legality?

I guess I'm just trying to prepare myself for that situation. From an LEO's point of view, not knowing the history of this Kimber, it's natural for him/her to treat the Kimber as illegal, right?

Ugh. These MA laws are giving me a headache.

 

[dwarven1]

I'm pulled over by a LEO for a standard traffic violation

Stop right there. There is no requirement in MA that you tell the LEO ANYTHING in about whether or not you have a gun. (there is in other states. CT, I think, and NH, for starters. Check packing.org cause I may be misremembering) Keep your mouth shut unless he plans on searching your car. If you feel you MUST tell him anything, just hand him your LTC with your DL. He'll probably ask if you're carrying it, which is when you'd tell him it's in the trunk.

I inform him that I am on my way to the range, and have the pistol stored unloaded, and safely locked up in the trunk. This is what I was taught to do when in possession of a firearm, to inform the LEO.

Again, IF he asks where you're going, THEN you can tell hiim the rest. You also might want to make sure that he knows you have your LTC. If he doesn't ask where you're going in such a hurry, don't tell him.

Let's say that LEO wants a look at my pistol

Why? What have you been doing to piss him off at this point??? There's NO reason so far for him to ask to see it unless you've been bragging that you've got a Kimber - in which case he probably just wants to drool over the expensive hardware.

and he says that the Kimber is an illegal gun to own in MA?

Hanwei, you REALLY need to spend some time browsing the gun laws forum here... there is no such law about a handgun being "illegal to own" in MA as long as you have the proper valid LTC for it. The only laws that you had to worry about were laws regarding WHAT THE DEALER CAN LEGALLY SELL. You can own whatever you want; your problem is FINDING the darn things that aren't on the EOPS list.

And if Officer Friendly says it's illegal to own, you could ask him politely to tell you what statute that you're violating - I once got out of a ticket for having a side mounted carrier on my car because the bozo who stopped me was SURE that it was illegal... and he kept me on the side of the road for 15 minutes trying to find exactly what law I was breaking. He let me go since he couldn't figure out what to write on the ticket.

I guess I'm just trying to prepare myself for that situation. From an LEO's point of view, not knowing the history of this Kimber, it's natural for him/her to treat the Kimber as illegal, right?

Um... why? Most cops don't know a Kimber from a Dick Tracy capgun. They treat a gun as a tool and don't care what kind it is. The LEO who stopped you is more worried about if you're going to SHOOT him or her with said Kimber during the traffic stop - which is why you keep your mouth shut, say "thank you, Officer" when he hands you your ticket, and don't say a word about the gun unless s/he asks.

 

[rscalzo]

Packing.org is no longer a decent source of information. I would not rely on what is posted on the site.

As far as running the firearm's SN, all that is returned in the way of information is the status is it is a stolen firearm or not. It will not disclose if it is approved in MA.

 

[dwarven1]

Actually, packing.org no longer seems to be in existance. I tried to look something up on it a few days ago, and it was down... and it's still down.

RIP Packing.org.

 

[LoginName]

Yes, it's legal for you to own. No, it wasn't legal for the shop (FFL), to sell to you. But, as has been mentioned, the responsibility/liability is on the shop owner.

As far as your scenario encounter with a police officer... you are under no legal obligation to inform the officer that you have a firearm on your person or in your vehicle. You are also under no legal obligation to consent to a search of your vehicle if the officer asks to do so. Whether you choose to inform the officer that you have a firearm in your trunk is entirely up to you. My personal opinion is that I would never inform the officer under the circumstances you describe. However... the officer may or may not ask you if you have any weapons in the vehicle. That could create a touchy dilemma. I would highly advise against lying. An acceptable response would be "officer, I have nothing illegal in my possession or in my vehicle". That could create a problem if the cop in question is a hard-ass and wants to make an issue of things. That being the case, it's possible to expect to be delayed/detained while the cop runs additional checks, calls for his supervisor, fishes for a vehicle violation, etc. Then again, the cop just might decide to forget the whole thing, issue you a warning or ticket and send you on your merry way.

In the worst case scenario and you inform the officer and let him examine your firearm... it's not up to you to prove if it's legal or not... it's not up to you to prove anything. If the officer has any uncertainty about the legality of your firearm, he will more than likely request the further assistance and opinion of a supervisor. If at some point it's determined that the Kimber is not a MA compliant handgun, you're still in the clear... there's nothing illegal with your owning it. Which raises another problem... if the cop asks where you purchased it from, and you tell him "Guns, Guts and Glory Gunshop", the officer could seize the firearm as evidence against the store owner for selling a non-complaint firearm to a civilian.

In reality, as long as you're licensed, I wouldn't expect a whole lot of fuss from the police unless you were being a wise-ass or a**h*** to the cop. Then again... this is MA. Proceed with caution.

Best piece of advice I can offer.... while having your Kimber in the trunk,
just obey the speed limit and rules of the road so you don't get pulled over to begin with.

(disclaimer... I am neither a police officer or an attorney, nor do I play one on TV).

 

[TomH]

Question related to this: how do they keep track of whether firearms are legal or not in MA? For instance, wouldn't an FA-10 have to be filed with the dealer's info on it, and if so why wouldn't it be flagged as having been an illegal sale in the first place? I know... they probably don't check at all...

And Hanwei, having a gun not on the "list" is not an entirely impossible thing. Say someone moves in from out of state and brings their guns with them (yes that's legal), then sells them to you. You can legally own those guns regardless of their status on the list. Then if you were pulled over you would be in the same situation really, still a legal sale but not a gun on the list. I wouldn't be surprised if an officer wasn't even that familiar with which guns are ON the list or not, from what I've heard about officers and lack of knowledge on the finer points of MA law. But since you or the dealer filed an FA-10 when the sale was made, you are covered legally in buying this firearm.

-Tom

 

[Lynne]

1) Worry not about the gun. The only thing you have to do is enjoy shooting it.

2) If pulled over by a police officer because you've done something stupid, or not as the case may be, you DO NOT need to tell him/her that you have a gun. IF you are asked if you have guns in the car, you put your hands on the wheel and keep them there. THEN you say "I have a Class A license officer and the firearm is locked in the trunk of my car. Would you like to see my license? If so, it's in my wallet." Don't move your hands until he/she tell you to. DO NOT give them your LTC with your drivers license.

3) If he/she wants to look at your pistol, and you've done nothing wrong, it's ok to say "No."

 

[EddieCoyle]

Repeat after me:

"Handguns not on 'the list' are NOT illegal."

A dealer is not supposed to transfer a non-roster handgun that was not in the state prior to 1998. Private sales are exempt. The seller is responsible for sending in the FA-10.

 

[TomH]

True I should have phrased it as "illegal transfer"

 

[Len-2A Training]

If you announce that you have a gun to someone from Boston PD, there is a reasonable chance that you could get a felony stop as a result (eating asphalt).

Do NOT announce what needs not be announced! ONLY if you are CCW'g and asked to step from the car would I ever mention anything about a gun.

I have worked as a PO and I have also been stopped twice while CCW'g. I was just polite and did not mention anything about firearms . . . and I was on my way with a verbal warning both times (>15 years ago).

If you announce what's in your trunk, you are just looking for trouble. It's beyond your reach and thus no threat to the officer (unless you have a "trunk monkey" in there ) and it is of no business to anyone without a search warrant (which he'd need probable cause for).

Don't look for trouble!

The other issues were well covered by others before me.

 

[Hanwei]

You guys are great. Really. Thanks for all the replies!

Obviously I've just jumped into the world of gun ownership in MA and I guess I've been OVER-sensitized to the crazy gun laws/regulations/policies of the State and need to relax.

Honestly, it's becoming clear that the root of my frustrations are the utterly confusing laws. I am simply a law abiding citizen that just wants to follow the laws... but how can I do that when the laws are so difficult to understand. I've spent weeks reading the forums and STILL have a long way to go That's just not right! Thank goodness for you guys.

And to clarify, I always drive carefully with traffic as to avoid giving LEO's any reason to pull me over while I'm going to the range. I was just trying to think of a situation where I would possibly have to interact with an LEO while with my Kimber. That's all

I'll stop worrying now. Thanks guys!

Hanwei

 

[Len-2A Training]

If I was heading to the range and got stopped, I would NOT answer (only if asked) honestly . . . I would dodge it with "on my way to do some errands" or "going to meet someone".

Don't lead into anything about guns or weapons and you'll do just fine.

 

[Underwhere]

I'm perusing this thread and my question is slightly off topic.

Say someone living in MA is selling say...a glock that is post-ban.
I can buy this legally from him?

The list of approved handguns is only for dealer sale?

 

[TomH]

Say someone living in MA is selling say...a glock that is post-ban.
I can buy this legally from him?

Yes you can buy this from him. The list is basically saying that newly manufactured guns NOT on that list can't be sold in MA by a dealer. The only way around that legally is to get one from someone who moved into the state with that gun. You could also buy a pre-ban pistol from another MA resident, assuming you have the correct license for it.

-Tom

 

[LoginName]

Say someone living in MA is selling say...a glock that is post-ban.
I can buy this legally from him?

Yes, the firearm is good to go. There are no post-ban/pre-ban Glock handguns. It's the pre-ban/post-ban legality of the magazines you have to be cautious about.

The list of approved handguns is only for dealer sale?

Yes, and also the AGs consumer safety regulations.

 

[drgrant]

wow, thanks for the quick reply!

Assuming it's legal, what would I do in this situation:

I'm pulled over by a LEO for a standard traffic violation and I inform him that I am on my way to the range, and have the pistol stored unloaded, and safely locked up in the trunk. This is what I was taught to do when in possession of a firearm, to inform the LEO.

There is no duty to inform in MA, unless the LEO asks you a question about
guns directly. It is dumb to proffer unnecessary information that is not
germane to the traffic stop... especially about a gun that couldn't even
possibly pose a threat to him at all.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Say someone living in MA is selling say...a glock that is post-ban.
I can buy this legally from him?

The list of approved handguns is only for dealer sale?

Yes. The EOPS roster and the AG's regs are meaningless WRT private
sale. And even if a dealer sells you something that's "off list", it's not your
responsibility- all the penalties only apply to the "licensed dealer" selling you
the gun.

-Mike

 

[KMaurer]

I'm pulled over by a LEO for a standard traffic violation and I inform him that I am on my way to the range, and have the pistol stored unloaded, and safely locked up in the trunk. This is what I was taught to do when in possession of a firearm, to inform the LEO.

Informing is required in some states, but not in Massachusetts. If during an encounter (e.g., a traffic stop) an officer asks whether you have any weapons, DO NOT SAY YOU HAVE A GUN! Once he hear's those words, is much less likely to hear whatever might follow them. Instead, say "I have a current License to Carry in ______, and am carrying a __________ in _________. Of course your hands are on the wheel or otherwise in plain sight and well away from gun during the entire time.

Ken

 

[matt1956]

I think he said the gun was on consignment... so wouldnt that actually mean that he LEO was the seller, not the shop? (Unless it was not a FTF)... wait... maybe I need to re-read it.... I could have missed something....

 

[Len-2A Training]

I've bought lots of guns that were on consignment at Four Seasons. Never met the owners. Carl did all the paperwork. As far as the State of Mass and BATFE is concerned, Four Seasons did the transfers as "owner" of the guns!

FTF at a dealer is NOT a FTF transaction in the eyes of the State or BATFE . . . 4473 & FA-10.

 

[Lynne]

I think he said the gun was on consignment... so wouldnt that actually mean that he LEO was the seller, not the shop? (Unless it was not a FTF)... wait... maybe I need to re-read it.... I could have missed something....

Even if it's consignment, the firearm is still on the FFL's books. You bought or buy it from them, not the "owner".

 

[Mikey]

Actually, packing.org no longer seems to be in existance. I tried to look something up on it a few days ago, and it was down... and it's still down.

RIP Packing.org.

Try this one it is pretty good.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

 

[KMaurer]

Packing.org seems to be back up, now.

Ken

 

[Len-2A Training]

Packing.org seems to be back up, now.

Ken

It goes up and down, but it doesn't update legal info very frequently any more. I would NOT rely on it. Only useful to find links to various state websites.

 

[LoginName]

It goes up and down, but it doesn't update legal info very frequently any more. I would NOT rely on it. Only useful to find links to various state websites.

That website goes up and down more often than a Tijuana prostitute.