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Body Armor

The only reservation I have about steel plates is spalling - the bullet breaking on impact and basically shredding your face/neck/arms/balls with shrapnel.

Watch this video of a steel plate in a carrier being shot. Notice how quickly the carrier gets torn up by spalling:




I'm currently reading through an extremely long but informative thread on ar15.com about trying to figure out how to eliminate spalling. Basically the idea seems to be to wrap a steel plate in kevlar, or get some kevlar in FRONT of the plate in some way to absorb the shrapnel: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/13...or__pics_of_final_test_in_the_OP_.html&page=1

Here's a quote from that thread that might make you think:

When we do lot testing on steel for armor, we mount the plates in 1000D cordura pouches and strap them up with 3" wide elastic straps. The straps last maybe two or three shots. Most of the time they are one shot and replace. The cordura pouches get shredded up pretty good too.

We get similar results on R&D plates with bare Al2O2 or SiC tiles on the strike face. Our old range had the concrete floor, cinder block walls, and ventilation shaft "etched" up pretty good at 50 feet. That's from several years of R&D on plates with no spall liner.
Click to expand...


Steel seems to be a great option for SHTF use assuming you can figure out a way to mitigate the spalling.
 
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peshooter said:
The only reservation I have about steel plates is spalling - the bullet breaking on impact and basically shredding your face/neck/arms/balls with shrapnel.

Watch this video of a steel plate in a carrier being shot. Notice how quickly the carrier gets torn up by spalling:




I'm currently reading through an extremely long but informative thread on ar15.com about trying to figure out how to eliminate spalling. Basically the idea seems to be to wrap a steel plate in kevlar, or get some kevlar in FRONT of the plate in some way to absorb the shrapnel: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/13...or__pics_of_final_test_in_the_OP_.html&page=1

Here's a quote from that thread that might make you think:




Steel seems to be a great option for SHTF use assuming you can figure out a way to mitigate the spalling.
Click to expand...


Definitely not trying to downplay the spalling, but getting spall from the third or fourth shot is still better than it going thru. The price on ceramic is just too high for us to justify. There's no way I would spend what it would cost to outfit all of our carriers.
 
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I do wonder how dangerous that spalling really is? Is it going to be able to sever an artery, or is it going to basically just sting and maybe become infected or "put your eye out" in the worst case scenario?

xtry51 said:
Definitely not trying to downplay the spalling, but getting spall from the third or fourth shot is still better than it going thru. The price on ceramic is just too high for us to justify. There's no way I would spend what it would cost to outfit all of our carriers.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, you should get spalling from every shot? The plate doesn't absorb the bullet, so it's gotta go somewhere after hitting.

I totally understand the cost concerns, and given some other benefits of steel (concealability, durability) I don't think ceramic is necessarily a clear cut winner here for civilian shtf use.

Just wanted to make people aware of one of the big disadvantages of steel plates, if they were looking into maybe buying something. I mean heck, at $65 a pop I'm considering buying a pair just to have. Could use one to make a bulletproof backpack, or to replace compromised ceramic plates if they aren't available for purchase at some point in the future (either due to shtf, government restrictions, etc).
 
peshooter said:
I do wonder how dangerous that spalling really is? Is it going to be able to sever an artery, or is it going to basically just sting and maybe become infected or "put your eye out" in the worst case scenario?



As far as I know, you should get spalling from every shot? The plate doesn't absorb the bullet, so it's gotta go somewhere after hitting.

I totally understand the cost concerns, and given some other benefits of steel (concealability, durability) I don't think ceramic is necessarily a clear cut winner here for civilian shtf use.

Just wanted to make people aware of one of the big disadvantages of steel plates, if they were looking into maybe buying something. I mean heck, at $65 a pop I'm considering buying a pair just to have. Could use one to make a bulletproof backpack, or to replace compromised ceramic plates if they aren't available for purchase at some point in the future (either due to shtf, government restrictions, etc).
Click to expand...

I tell you what, next time I head out to the range Ill build a sheetrock box, put a plate in and hit it with some M855 and federal match 308. Then I'll take pics and post them up. If its bad, ill also try wrapped in a pair of jeans and see if it helps.

Preferred range of engagement?
 
I like to take my plate and press them against my nuts and have a buddy who can somewhat hit the broad side of a barn engage the plate while I'm wearing it. No kids ever since I've tried this type of training. Don't know if its good or bad.
 
Make_MA_2A_Compliant said:
Do they make 1/2" x 1/2" plates?
Click to expand...

[laugh]

Super-Troopers.jpg


Here are pics of one of my plates:
IMAG0052 (Large).jpg IMAG0051 (Large).jpg
 
xtry51 said:
I tell you what, next time I head out to the range Ill build a sheetrock box, put a plate in and hit it with some M855 and federal match 308. Then I'll take pics and post them up. If its bad, ill also try wrapped in a pair of jeans and see if it helps.

Preferred range of engagement?
Click to expand...

General wisdom on the internet seems to say that the spall would have a hard time penetrating bone, but could sever your carotid or jugular, or ruin your eyes. Looking at pictures of steel plates being shot at the range, you can often see a little trench that the spall digs in the dirt parallel to the plate. Keep in mind your shooting stance - your neck and groin are likely to be right in line with the spall.

I wouldn't condone shooting a plate you want to rely on to save your life at some point in the future, but if you've got a bunch of spare steel plates sitting around it might be a worthwhile test. Better to find out just how dangerous that spall is NOW rather than later when it's too late.

RE range of engagement, I'm not sure... 50 yards?


I've been searching everywhere and can't really find any info about just how much power that spall has. Hard to find much, I guess because steel plates are no longer in use by mil/LE.
 
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So...

Don't wear plates because bullets going through your vital organs is less dangerous than spall? Got it.
Don't shoot steel plates you plan to wear because shooting them once will some how make plates designed for multiple strikes less safe? Got it.
Pretty soon you guys are going to reverse reason yourselves in not wearing chest racks at all, and then what the hell are you going to wear to the mall?
 
Timber said:
Don't wear plates because bullets going through your vital organs is less dangerous than spall? Got it.
Don't shoot steel plates you plan to wear because shooting them once will some how make plates designed for multiple strikes less safe? Got it.
Click to expand...

[rolleyes]
 
Thanks for that link! I entered and joined that site, looks like some good deals. As far as that carrier and plate setup goes, it looks like a really good setup for the money - especially if you don't have the funds for a high end ceramic rig. I will likely set aside some funds to buy this rig if I don't win the contest because I have been wanting one for a long time, just couldn't seem to find a setup I could afford.
 
I don't know a whole lot about body armor but this seems like a solid compromise when compared to the cost of ceramics. Do they make AR500 cups? [wink]

What's out there in the world of helmets?
 
calsdad said:
Haven't read thru the whole thread yet - what did they do - build up a layer of Herculiner 1/2" thick on one side of the plate?
Click to expand...

I believe it was just five layers of Kevlar "stolen" from an old vest. The Kevlar was attached to the plate using Gorilla Glue. Some sealed the plate and Kevlar with the Herculiner.
 
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That was the original test, which wasn't nearly as effective. If you have time, read through the whole thread. They did various tests, some with kevlar, some with herculiner, some with a combination. Check Page 31 They actually shot the plate to failure without any spalling splash.
 
While we're on the topic, I'm guessing... ceramic is lighter, but can't take the same abuse as steel?

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
While we're on the topic, I'm guessing... ceramic is lighter, but can't take the same abuse as steel?

-Mike
Click to expand...

Ceramic is lighter, much thicker, and much more expensive. The abuse that it takes is based on the particular rating of the ceramic or steel tested, but steel doesn't degrade nearly as fast after being shot. (can take more shots at the same plate) The steel plates that are around $50 or so can stand up to .308. Biggest downside of steel is its weight and spalling, so hopefully this will fix half of it.
 
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Marcus5aurelius said:
That was the original test, which wasn't nearly as effective. If you have time, read through the whole thread. They did various tests, some with kevlar, some with herculiner, some with a combination. Check Page 31 They actually shot the plate to failure without any spalling splash.
Click to expand...

I'll have to read thru the whole thread and absorb what they did. The Kevlar/Herculiner layer sounds like it's the key to making the plate work so you don't get shredded with spall. The reason why they starting getting rounds thru the plate is that they likely work hardened and weakened the plate by hitting it in the same place over and over and over again. But 30 rounds is pretty impressive. If you're going to get hit 30 times in the same place you're just doing it wrong.

The Kevlar/Herculiner layer is basically a composite - like fiberglass is a composite. The real question probably is: what TYPE of Kevlar did they use - because I believe there are different types. This is the question to get asked - because Kevlar is available in sheet form. There are places you can buy it for building composite parts for race cars and so forth. The thing I don't know is if the Kevlar used for a vest is the same as the Kevlar used to make body part for a car. There is probably differences in the weave and so forth.

This has got me really thinking about getting some more armor (steel plates) - and doing the Kevlar / Herculiner thing.
 
drgrant said:
While we're on the topic, I'm guessing... ceramic is lighter, but can't take the same abuse as steel?

-Mike
Click to expand...

It's been a while since I looked at this - but there are different rating levels. The highest level can take a hit from 30.06 AP - and not get penetration. I don't remember if the standard says it should be able to take another hit or not.

These guys are all shooting at the plates with variants of .223 and .308. Before you start making a direct comparison between ceramic and steel plates I would like to see what happens to one of these AR-500 steel plates when somebody takes a few shots at it with 30.06 AP.
 

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