Bass Pro-On the wrong side of the AG already?

[MassMark]

Twisted logic? Put yourself in the shoes of a gun shop owner in Massachusetts who is competing for your hard earned dollars and then think about it.

Would you want a dealer - especially one the size of BP - being able to not only potentially undercut your prices and offer things you can't like a "gun return policy" as well as allowing them to knowlingly sell firearms you cannot?

Good grief....twisted logic.

Now one could argue (and many have) that calling the AG instead of calling BP was the right thing to do...dealer to dealer. However, have you ever tried to call an organization like BP and gotten to someone who could actually do something or understand what the heck it was you were talking about? Yeah...fun isn't it?

What you fail to address is something that goes beyond simple business competition. We reside in a state where the Attorney General woke up one day and decided to declare himself 'God And Protector Of The Masses'. In doing so, he trampled on our rights while we all rolled over and took it. We have an Attorney General now who so far does not see the errors of her predecessor and likely never will, (though one can always hope). The dealer in question did nothing less than aid the Attorney Generals office in stomping our collective guts in further. If the allegations, (apparently admitted to by the dealer) of making reports to the Attorney General's office are true, than this spells out nothing less a traitorous act by a self-absorbed shill.....

 

[dreppucci007]

OK, I'm going to chime in here because I'm a marketing guy and over the last 27 years I've operated (successfully) on both ends of the big/small company continuum. This is going to be a long post.

You make some interesting points, but let's think this through. On your 2nd point "knowingly selling firearms I cannot" - If I was a competing small local retailer with a brain, I'd realize that there were huge benefits that I could realize by letting this practice go on as long as possible.

Let's say the big box store (BBS) is allowed to continue for a few more weeks, sells a whole bunch more non-EOPS firearms, and then gets whacked with huge fines. There are there are three possible results:

1. The BBS pays the huge fines and probably does what every other BBS in Mass has done: Stops selling handguns. If they decide to keep selling EOPS handguns, they've been hurt financially. I win either way.
2. The BBS fights the AG and spends a bundle of money on legal fees, and wins. Now I'll be able to sell the same guns. I know that I can compete with them on price. (This is true - I've looked at their prices)
3. The BBS fights the AG, spends big money on legal fees, and loses. If this happens, they almost certainly will decide to stop selling handguns in Mass. Even if they decide to continue selling EOPS handguns, my competitor has been hurt financially, and I know I can compete on price.

While all of this is going on, I call the BBS patriotic, pretend that I like what they're doing, and put up an end cap full of Glock and XD mags and KKM replacement barrels right in front of my door.

To your second point - "potentially undercutting my prices and offering things I can't" - I'll need to find a way to continue to be competitive anyway - regardless of the "non-EOPS guns thing".

One of the big advantages a small place has over a BBS is "agility".

If 5 people walk into a BBS and ask for an item that they don't stock, the corporate office is not going to begin buying it. I can, and I'll be sure to feature it in my next ad and on my website.

Speaking of websites - I'll update mine often, and make sure that my used gun inventory is updated daily. Who here doesn't check Four Seasons or Collectors regularly? A BBS can't do this.

Every night when I close my shop, I'll stop in at the BBS for a half hour or so and check things out. I'll watch what they have, and stock what they don't carry. I'll provide services that they can't (training classes, custom ordering, etc).

I'd keep an eye out for good deals on small wholesale lots from a variety of suppliers (closeouts, gov't auction lots of brass, ammo cans, etc). The BBS won't do this. When I find them, they'll be featured prominently on my website.

I'd hit this board every night to watch the pulse of my customer base, and be ready to adapt quickly.

I'd belong to every local gun club and sponsor/host as many events as I could. If I got together with my S&W rep to host "The Eddie's Gun Shop and NortheastShooters.com Smith & Wesson Day" at the Shirley Rod and Gun Club during the tax free weekend, where you could try out a bunch of S&W stuff and get special deals, how many people would show up? 100? 200? Shit, maybe I can get together with my local dealer and make this happen.

The bottom line is that he was in a no-lose situation and he screwed it up. As my cousin Fat Paulie told me years ago, "Jimmy, nobody ever got in trouble by keeping their f**king mouth shut."

That's far from twisted logic...That's just logic.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Would you want a dealer - especially one the size of BP - being able to not only potentially undercut your prices and offer things you can't like a "gun return policy" as well as allowing them to knowlingly sell firearms you cannot?

BP is NOT undercutting the local dealer's prices on guns. Maybe or maybe not on ammo, but certainly higher than Dick's or Wal-Mart for what those places do carry.

"Gun Return Policy" - Yup, BP sign says "NO RETURNS ON GUNS"! Same as other shops. But some local shops (at least assuming you are a good customer) have been known to offer to take back a gun that they felt was defective. In both personal cases, said gun was sold as used and I refused the offer - had them fix it in one case and I've figured out an alternative plan for the other gun (screws stripped in Aluminum frame so scope mount won't stay put) - using iron sights now but will order an AimTech scope mount for it after S&W takes care of a feeding problem with it.

To put this in perspective, back before the RAT dimed out the out-of-state dealers selling ammo into MA, Four Seasons was running regular sales on cases of ammo (tell them "Holly sent you" deals) and I was buying cases regularly. Carl is a friend as well as a dealer (he started as a good dealer and grew to be a friend with me). So he would ask me "How do my prices stack up against mail-order?" and my answer was "I don't know!" The few times I did check, I found after paying shipping (ammo isn't lightweight) or Ammoman's inflated "free shippping" prices (the AG nailed him), I might save $5/case (essentially sales tax back then) and it wasn't worth worrying if they left it in the rain on the doorstep or not over "small change". So I stopped checking prices and just trusted and bought from Carl instead. I don't see the GOOD local dealers suffering greatly from BP's presence.

Due to the high prices on ammo and handguns at BP, plus the fact that I'm not a hunter or a fisherman (couldn't catch a cold), I'm not real likely to go there to browse (something I always do when near Four Seasons or Collectors), reserving trips to BP for only those times they have a sale on something that I really want at a great price (on guns and ammo I think that will be a very rare thing). Most of my purchases of guns at Four Seasons have been while I was "just browsing", so I see BP's high gun prices as a big negative to getting "unanticipated business" from at least some of us. YMMV

I USED TO stop by the RAT's store occasionally when down in his area serving legal papers. The RAT told me that he knew that I was friendly with Carl and gave Carl a lot of my business, but he hoped to build my trust so that I would instead give the RAT my business (he is a lot closer)! Well, he never succeeded in that and my response now is

Due to distance, time and cost (skyrocketing gas prices), I don't get up to FS very often, but when I'm looking for something or in that area, Carl is the first one I will be contacting!

 

[50 BMG]

defense

I have one very simple question.....wheres' Ted????? Lets hear from him and not patrons or attorneys. ......

 

[EddieCoyle]

That's just logic.

No sir. That's marketing. It's what I do.

 

[dixidawg]

OK, I'm going to chime in here because I'm a marketing guy and over the last 27 years I've operated (successfully) on both ends of the big/small company continuum. This is going to be a long post.

You make some interesting points, but let's think this through. On your 2nd point "knowingly selling firearms I cannot" - If I was a competing small local retailer with a brain, I'd realize that there were huge benefits that I could realize by letting this practice go on as long as possible.

Let's say the big box store (BBS) is allowed to continue for a few more weeks, sells a whole bunch more non-EOPS firearms, and then gets whacked with huge fines. There are there are three possible results:

1. The BBS pays the huge fines and probably does what every other BBS in Mass has done: Stops selling handguns. If they decide to keep selling EOPS handguns, they've been hurt financially. I win either way.
2. The BBS fights the AG and spends a bundle of money on legal fees, and wins. Now I'll be able to sell the same guns. I know that I can compete with them on price. (This is true - I've looked at their prices)
3. The BBS fights the AG, spends big money on legal fees, and loses. If this happens, they almost certainly will decide to stop selling handguns in Mass. Even if they decide to continue selling EOPS handguns, my competitor has been hurt financially, and I know I can compete on price.

While all of this is going on, I call the BBS patriotic, pretend that I like what they're doing, and put up an end cap full of Glock and XD mags and KKM replacement barrels right in front of my door.

To your second point - "potentially undercutting my prices and offering things I can't" - I'll need to find a way to continue to be competitive anyway - regardless of the "non-EOPS guns thing".

One of the big advantages a small place has over a BBS is "agility".

If 5 people walk into a BBS and ask for an item that they don't stock, the corporate office is not going to begin buying it. I can, and I'll be sure to feature it in my next ad and on my website.

Speaking of websites - I'll update mine often, and make sure that my used gun inventory is updated daily. Who here doesn't check Four Seasons or Collectors regularly? A BBS can't do this.

Every night when I close my shop, I'll stop in at the BBS for a half hour or so and check things out. I'll watch what they have, and stock what they don't carry. I'll provide services that they can't (training classes, custom ordering, etc).

I'd keep an eye out for good deals on small wholesale lots from a variety of suppliers (closeouts, gov't auction lots of brass, ammo cans, etc). The BBS won't do this. When I find them, they'll be featured prominently on my website.

I'd hit this board every night to watch the pulse of my customer base, and be ready to adapt quickly.

I'd belong to every local gun club and sponsor/host as many events as I could. If I got together with my S&W rep to host "The Eddie's Gun Shop and NortheastShooters.com Smith & Wesson Day" at the Shirley Rod and Gun Club during the tax free weekend, where you could try out a bunch of S&W stuff and get special deals, how many people would show up? 100? 200? Shit, maybe I can get together with my local dealer and make this happen.

The bottom line is that he was in a no-lose situation and he screwed it up. As my cousin Fat Paulie told me years ago, "Jimmy, nobody ever got in trouble by keeping their f**king mouth shut."

Spoken like a true capitalist. When is Eddie's Gun Shop Grand Opening???

 

[Len-2A Training]

Jim,

I'd belong to every local gun club and sponsor/host as many events as I could. If I got together with my S&W rep to host "The Eddie's Gun Shop and NortheastShooters.com Smith & Wesson Day" at the Shirley Rod and Gun Club during the tax free weekend, where you could try out a bunch of S&W stuff and get special deals, how many people would show up? 100? 200? Shit, maybe I can get together with my local dealer and make this happen.

This sounds like a PLAN!

I like your local dealer and your facilities.

This sounds like a great marketing idea - call it a "gun show" (by one dealer ) and he can sell/do the paperwork at your club, otherwise everyone would have to go to the shop afterwards due to BATFE Regs.

 

[z0mbi]

Yeah, Jim. I'd buy from you any day, you sound like you know what you're doing.

 

[Garys]

No sir. That's marketing. It's what I do.

I'm not in marketing, but that's a very good blueprint to follow.

Except for Four Seasons, no one does even a halfway job of maintaining a website. Even theirs is very busy and with too many links.

If they visit this forum, and some do, they'd certainly see that some pretty involved shooters are also tech savvy. They could increase sales by investing a bit of money in good website design.

All of which is to ask, when do you open your shop?

Gary

 

[Moderator]

Ted does read the forum but does not post. If you want his input and his side of the story why not send him an email? [email protected]

While your at it, ask him if he sells 3rd generation Glocks like the picture posted on his specials page here.
http://www.northeasttrading.com/Specials Page.htm

 

[Len-2A Training]

As Jim stated, marketing by the small guys can far outstrip the big guys. Small stores are like a dingy, easy to make a turn while BBS turns are like a battleship . . . take a lot of effort and a long time.

I bought an M1 Carbine at FS while "just browsing" a few years ago. But Carl had no surplus .30 Carbine ammo. I stopped at Collectors and picked up a few bandoleers of Korean stuff. I then mentioned to Carl that he should stock the Korean .30 Carbine and next trip he had bandoleers of it on his sales floor. Try that at a BBS (suggestion of 1 customer) and see where you get!!

SMART small stores provide SERVICES to their customer. IF they concentrate on that, they have nothing to fear from the BBS in their neighborhood.

C-pher, GPK, etc. can only explain BP policy, apologize for high prices, suggest we ask for stuff, etc. BUT the changes have to be made at a much HIGHER level! If you make a suggestion to the Carl's of the world, you are talking to the MAN who can make that change happen! And if it makes good business sense, they will make it happen and quickly.

 

[rwl1955]

Rat

Let's say the big box store (BBS) is allowed to continue for a few more weeks, sells a whole bunch more non-EOPS firearms, and then gets whacked with huge fines. There are there are three possible results:

1. The BBS pays the huge fines and probably does what every other BBS in Mass has done: Stops selling handguns. If they decide to keep selling EOPS handguns, they've been hurt financially. I win either way.
2. The BBS fights the AG and spends a bundle of money on legal fees, and wins. Now I'll be able to sell the same guns. I know that I can compete with them on price. (This is true - I've looked at their prices)
3. The BBS fights the AG, spends big money on legal fees, and loses. If this happens, they almost certainly will decide to stop selling handguns in Mass. Even if they decide to continue selling EOPS handguns, my competitor has been hurt financially, and I know I can compete on price.


While all of this is going on, I call the BBS patriotic, pretend that I like what they're doing, and put up an end cap full of Glock and XD mags and KKM replacement barrels right in front of my door.
********
I agree with Eddie`s logic. If I was said dealer I would have watched BPS`s selling of banned guns and hoped they sold a shitload of them. When the AG told them to stop selling them BPS told the AG to f*** off, then assigned their whole legal dept. to taking on the AG and their oppressive regs.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Jim,




This sounds like a PLAN!

I like your local dealer and your facilities.

This sounds like a great marketing idea - call it a "gun show" (by one dealer ) and he can sell/do the paperwork at your club, otherwise everyone would have to go to the shop afterwards due to BATFE Regs.

I'm going to try to do this. Stay tuned...

Does anybody know when/if they're going to do the tax-free weekend in 2008?

 

[M1911]

I'd belong to every local gun club and sponsor/host as many events as I could. If I got together with my S&W rep to host "The Eddie's Gun Shop and NortheastShooters.com Smith & Wesson Day" at the Shirley Rod and Gun Club during the tax free weekend, where you could try out a bunch of S&W stuff and get special deals, how many people would show up? 100? 200? Shit, maybe I can get together with my local dealer and make this happen.

A few years back, Four Seasons did something similar with MRA and SigArms (though not on tax-free day). MRA was PACKED. So was Four Seasons -- they were selling new Sigs like hotcakes.

 

[dwarven1]

Jim, they only pass it each year, so we don't really have much warning. I think it was the second weekend in August, but I'm not positive on that.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Let's say the big box store (BBS) is allowed to continue for a few more weeks, sells a whole bunch more non-EOPS firearms, and then gets whacked with huge fines. There are there are three possible results:

Add one:

4. The AG informs the store of the total fine, and offers to waive the fine if the store signs a consent decree in which the store agrees with all apsects of the AG's regulations, promises to abide by them, and contractually agrees that they will never file a legal challenge against said regulations.

 

[rwl1955]

AG Regs

Add one:

4. The AG informs the store of the total fine, and offers to waive the fine if the store signs a consent decree in which the store agrees with all apsects of the AG's regulations, promises to abide by them, and contractually agrees that they will never file a legal challenge against said regulations.

********
And like I said the big box store tells the AG to bring it on. Wishfull thinking I know.
If BPS and Cabela`s got together and put pressure on the oppressive AG`s office something could change. Obviously our local dealers can`t or won`t challenge the AG.

 

[ArmedMainer]

Ted does read the forum but does not post. If you want his input and his side of the story why not send him an email? [email protected]

While your at it, ask him if he sells 3rd generation Glocks like the picture posted on his specials page here.
http://www.northeasttrading.com/Specials Page.htm

Thanks for posting this. I would think if he didn't talk to the AG about mail order ammo sales in MA. and BPS selling Glocks he would and should want to set the record straight.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Add one:

4. The AG informs the store of the total fine, and offers to waive the fine if the store signs a consent decree in which the store agrees with all apsects of the AG's regulations, promises to abide by them, and contractually agrees that they will never file a legal challenge against said regulations.

Oooh, good one!

Yet another win for Eddie's Gun Shop! I paste a copy of that signed agreement in my window and on my website, then "rally the troops" against the evil store that "helped the AG" (like half the threads on this site over the past couple of weeks).

 

[Fooped]

The "buisness is business" argument is a ducky that doesn't washie in my world. This is nothing less in my mind than a narcissistic act by a dealer who likes to play both sides of the fence to not only serve his best interest, but stab the rest of us squarely in the back....The fact that myself and many of you can no longer call MidwayUsa and buy reloading components, or catch a deal on some .308 could very well be directly a result of a gun dealer in collusion with the very Attorney General so seemingly hell-bent on trampling on our rights....

+1. It seems as though this "revelation" that the traitorous party was also behind the ammo "crackdown" puts a whole new coat of paint on things. As dastardly as the BP incident was (is), the mail order blockade is an entirely different animal. It was (and still is Goddammit) entirely legal to order reloading components through the mail, yet now we can't do it due to, at least in part, this douche.

Slammed home the final nail in the coffin for me no doubt.

 

[Fooped]

The bottom line is that he was in a no-lose situation and he screwed it up. As my cousin Fat Paulie told me years ago, "Jimmy, nobody ever got in trouble by keeping their f**king mouth shut."

A'int that the truth!

Even though I only quoted this one part, excellent post!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Yet another win for Eddie's Gun Shop! I paste a copy of that signed agreement in my window and on my website, then "rally the troops" against the evil store that "helped the AG" (like half the threads on this site over the past couple of weeks).

A dangerous strategy if there is an unintentional slipup on your staff's part, since you've promised your customers you'll fork over tens of $K even if given an opportunity to make it all go away by signing a consent decree.

 

[Fooped]

Add one:

4. The AG informs the store of the total fine, and offers to waive the fine if the store signs a consent decree in which the store agrees with all apsects of the AG's regulations, promises to abide by them, and contractually agrees that they will never file a legal challenge against said regulations.

With one back-handed side benefit:

In this scenario, a (hopefully significant) number of "evil" off list handguns are now legally in-state. When these guns are in turn transfered FTF (once again, quite legally), this lowers the artifically inflated prices on said guns (XD, new Glocks, FN etc).

I'm not in any way saying that this scenario is preferrable to BPS digging in their heels and going full bore against the AG, but it is a realistic outcome.

Look what's happening to H&K pricing (at least the common models) in state, due to more availability.

 

[EddieCoyle]

A dangerous strategy if there is an unintentional slipup on your staff's part, since you've promised your customers you'll fork over tens of $K even if given an opportunity to make it all go away by signing a consent decree.

It's a risk I'd be willing to take. Besides, my lawyer would probably be able to get the fines reduced by showing a jury the blackmail agreements that my competitors had signed.

 

[vellnueve]

I'm not in marketing, but that's a very good blueprint to follow.

Except for Four Seasons, no one does even a halfway job of maintaining a website. Even theirs is very busy and with too many links.

If they visit this forum, and some do, they'd certainly see that some pretty involved shooters are also tech savvy. They could increase sales by investing a bit of money in good website design.

All of which is to ask, when do you open your shop?

Gary

Actually, Collectors maintains a complete list of all new and used firearms they have on their website.

 

[rwl1955]

Collector`s

Actually, Collectors maintains a complete list of all new and used firearms they have on their website.

********
Do you have their website address?

 

[vellnueve]

http://www.collectorsguns.com

 

[drgrant]

With one back-handed side benefit:

In this scenario, a (hopefully significant) number of "evil" off list handguns are now legally in-state. When these guns are in turn transfered FTF (once again, quite legally), this lowers the artifically inflated prices on said guns (XD, new Glocks, FN etc).

Depends on how many guns enter the market, etc, before they
get cut off. Further, a LOT of "suckers" will return the guns
if BPS or whoever asks them to- falsely believing that the gun
they just bought is now "illegal"; eg, even if BPS doens't -say- it's
illegal, its still kinda implied... it's like a "voluntary recall" and
even if nothing is wrong, it still has a negative connotation
associated with it. Others may be concerned that they might
not be able to sell the gun down the road (which WE know isn't
true, but "Joe Fungohead" with his freshly minted LTC-A might not
know that.... ) This is exactly what happened when FS was
selling the "neutered" Glocks. FS sold a crapload of those
Glocks, and I think Carl said most people ended up returning
them. I do run into a few of the "10 pound trigger MA glocks" in
my travels but in reality they're kinda rare. Despite this
flood of Glocks on the market it only changed the pricing for a very
short period of time, because most of them ended up going off
the market.

The downside is the demographics say that most of those guns are
going to be in the under $600 realm. So while it would improve
the availability of things like an XD/Glock/M+P .45 (at least temporarily) it's not
going to help those of us looking for things like a stray Kimber Desert Warrior, etc.

Look what's happening to H&K pricing (at least the common models) in state, due to more availability.

I think that's a supply/demand thing more than anything
else... HK's handguns are simply expensive to begin with, even if
you can get them "fresh and new" etc. As much as I like my
HK's, a lot of "value driven" buyers will never end up touching
them, they'll buy a Glock/M+P first, simply due to the $100+
difference in the base price.

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

I'm going to try to do this. Stay tuned...

Does anybody know when/if they're going to do the tax-free weekend in 2008?

Jim, it is INTENTIONALLY never announced in far in advance (>2-3 weeks prior) as they don't want us not paying taxes for months, just waiting for the date. All notification is done strictly thru the media, as they don't budget money to officially advertise the event. [None of this is conjecture, as a vendor I took DOR to task the first year (for lack of official notification) and have a nice apology letter from them explaining what and why.]

To date it has been the 2nd weekend in August, but no promises that it will happen (or not) or when for any subsequent year.

 

[Garys]

Actually, Collectors maintains a complete list of all new and used firearms they have on their website.

They only update it every two or three weeks. Four Seasons is updated almost daily. A while back, I posted a comment about Four Seasons because I went up there because I wanted to buy a gun on their list, but it was sold. Shame on me for not calling first, but still I was a bit peeved. Carl replied and ever since they've been very current.

Gary