A friend of a friend got a call from BATF regarding his off-list purchase

[Martlet]

No, but they may be entering your wife?

Would it be a lot to ask if we could keep this on topic so those of us who have no interest in tweeting on NES can follow the event?

If I'm the only person here who doesn't feel the need to post about everything they eat, watch, or see, then carry on. I'll shut up.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

I just spoke with someone who got a visit.

The conversation went like this ..............

Did you purchase gun X, on date Y, from shop Z, and is that gun still in your possession?

He answered yes.

No further questions were asked.

Your friend answered wrong.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Would it be a lot to ask if we could keep this on topic so those of us who have no interest in tweeting on NES can follow the event?

If I'm the only person here who doesn't feel the need to post about everything they eat, watch, or see, then carry on. I'll shut up.

+1

This is an awful time for NES with multiple parties at stake and still more people are saying they got a knock. Pretty scary when people post sarcastically while Feds are on our doorsteps.

Your friend answered wrong.

One of the worst answers too.

 

[calsdad]

For your barn and garage, my answer--without seeing your property--is I think a warrant would be necessary in those circumstances.

If I'm hesitant to answer yes, it's because there are so many factors that can change the circumstances.




Ha!

Ok.

So I'm wondering what would the property have to do with it? The buildings are NOT attached to each other. Does that make any difference?

It seems like nobody can really answer this question - which in my mind means: The police can enter your home - or any building on your property - at will. They just need the proper excuse (like I see in the TV shows all the time " we heard somebody screaming inside the house - so we entered")

 

[KilgoreTrout]

Evidence to be seized and introduced during the trial...

This is interesting. This could be a protracted discovery phase. Good effing point.

Could spell subpoenas?

When does Mike appear to face formal charges? Could be a full court press for discovery until then.

 

[calsdad]

In MA your threshold is your home.

That still doesn't answer the question..

I have three thresholds in my house. And the garage / barn - which is NOT attached to the house - has five - if you include the garage doors.

Seriously - is the actual law that vague that nobody can answer this question other than a lawyer?

 

[warwickben]

Yeah no offense but all the people on this site posting ads for nib off list guns sold in mass is pretty retarded . That like telling hey look at be .

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Yeah no offense but all the people on this site posting ads for nib off list guns sold in mass is pretty retarded . That like telling hey look at be .

No, they should be offended. Look what I got! Stupid a**h***s.

 

[warwickben]

The Nail That Sticks Out Gets Hammered - A Japanese Proverb

And the sheep flip

 

[SalemCat]

What is the proper time frame for selling a gun that you recently purchased but no longer want without it looking like a straw purchase?

First of all, I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

Why would "time frame" matter ? In MA the four FTF Sales a year you are allowed would be a pretty poor way to make a living even if your bought and sold all four in a single day.

And if you're buying firearms, from private parties or FFL's, and then consigning or selling them to an FFL, and making a profit, more power to you. I don't think that is "dealing in firearms". The FFL is doing the dealing.

Don't "Straw Purchases" apply only when a person is buying a Firearm for someone who cannot legally do so themselves ? If I saw a gun I knew a friend would like at a Gun Show, or in some remote shop, can't I buy it for him, and then sell it to him, assuming he lives in my state, and all parties have the proper license, and I have not used up my (4) MA FTF's ?

I suppose in other States where people can buy and sell as many guns as they like, and do so, people might be "dealing in firearms" illegally. But here is MA I would think the (4) FTF Sale limit would make that charge unlikely.

 

[SalemCat]

Northborough resident and former gun shop owner charged with selling illegal guns - News - Framingham, MA - The MetroWest Daily News

Finally the story.

Sounds like a whole lot of trouble for some guy selling the same guns that any FFL in any other State can sell with no beefs, just because the guns aren't on "The MA Approved Lists".

Sad.

 

[center442]

I feel for Mike. Even if he ultimately prevails it's going to cost him in time and money.

I'm really wondering why BATFE is involved in this. Selling off-list guns is a state issue. True, an FFL dealer is required to comply with state and local law, but in the past, this has been handled with a nasty letter to the dealer from Martha, and to the best of my knowledge, it never involved the Feds. (I'm thinking back to when Bass Pro first opened.)

FFL's are already required to keep meticulous records. Contacting the buyers of certain guns and asking them to confirm the fact that they made that purchase sounds to me like they're looking to corroborate the information that has already been entered in the dealer's records. The only reason that I can think of for doing that is to gain more leverage to get Mike to plead out. "Mr. Wheeler, we have verbal confirmation from x people that you sold guns that you shouldn't have. If we go to trial, we will subpoena those buyers for their testimony in court."

I could see the state doing that, but why would BATFE be doing the questioning? Is BATFE now doing the legwork for the state?

 

[Serapis]

Yeah, though I have heard and experienced many more reasonable stories than that. No offense to Goga, but it is also possible there was some perception that isn't in that story.

911 hang-ups often get a visit unless you are living in a collapsed progressive holding tank like Detroit or LA, but more often than not, they knock, you say, "oops" and they say "have a nice day".

I had a fun phone that decided to "auto-complete" 9+hangup as 911. Learned the hard way that I needed a new phone. They were professional and did not kick my door, shoot my dog or even ask to come in.

It's actually a huge liability issue as well not to follow up on an accidental 911 call. There is a way to do it and at the same time respect peoples rights. Unfortunately so LEO will use it as a fishing expedition.

On the other hand, there are plenty of situations where an 'accidental' 911 call are real emergencies, and I can speak from experience that is happens a lot around my town.

Its a difficult line, especially for LEO's that are trying to do the 'right thing.'

- - - Updated - - -

I feel for Mike. Even if he ultimately prevails it's going to cost him in time and money.

I'm really wondering why BATFE is involved in this. Selling off-list guns is a state issue. True, an FFL dealer is required to comply with state and local law, but in the past, this has been handled with a nasty letter to the dealer from Martha, and to the best of my knowledge, it never involved the Feds. (I'm thinking back to when Bass Pro first opened.)

FFL's are already required to keep meticulous records. Contacting the buyers of certain guns and asking them to confirm the fact that they made that purchase sounds to me like they're looking to corroborate the information that has already been entered in the dealer's records. The only reason that I can think of for doing that is to gain more leverage to get Mike to plead out. "Mr. Wheeler, we have verbal confirmation from x people that you sold guns that you shouldn't have. If we go to trial, we will subpoena those buyers for their testimony in court."

I could see the state doing that, but why would BATFE be doing the questioning? Is BATFE now doing the legwork for the state?

I'm thinking the State had asked the feds for help in researching the books.

 

[Franco]

.

 

[Martlet]

I wonder if this is related?

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/off-topic/201812-unintended-consequences.html

anyone know if the these visits are limited to a particular area?

No. That was unrelated.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

I'm thinking the State had asked the feds for help in researching the books.

Yeah, possibly. But Center442 was correct in regard to FFL transfers. Any word of "Illegal" guns crossing state lines into MA is a gun grabber's wet dream. There is already too much info on NES. We need to edit so much stuff on here.

 

[Bluefin]

It has come to the attention of various parties in the state of MA that the BATFE has become interested in people who have transferred firearms and long arms from third party sellers to themselves through Tite-Group Sporting. The legal issues at Tite-Group have been known for some time, the newer development is the involvement by BATFE knocking on the doors of law abiding guns owners in MA. This effort appears to be a fishing expedition by the BATFE and is likely aimed at developing evidence against Tite Group.

What appears to also be of interest is transactions taking place between sellers who bought a gun transferred at Tite Group and any downstream buyer.
Though these sales are perfectly legal under many circumstances, there are circumstances where these sales are not. It is impossible to list here all of the possible variations and gyrations that make a sale prohibited from a sale that isn't. Therefore it is important for you to know what your rights are.

You should remember that you are under no obligation to provide information to the police or ATF and you have the right to decline to discussing anything, no matter how minor it is, with authorities and ask for contact information. You should then contact an attorney who can further assist you in evaluating your specific situation and provide competent counsel on what you should do next. This cold blustery evening would be a good opportunity to review the you tube videos entitled "Don't talk with the police".

Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1 - YouTube
Don't Talk to Cops, Part 2 - YouTube


Please forward this to your friends, family and fellow gun club members.

thx...first time seeing these vids...illuminating to say the least

 

[KBCraig]

Don't "Straw Purchases" apply only when a person is buying a Firearm for someone who cannot legally do so themselves ? If I saw a gun I knew a friend would like at a Gun Show, or in some remote shop, can't I buy it for him, and then sell it to him, assuming he lives in my state, and all parties have the proper license, and I have not used up my (4) MA FTF's ?

1) No. It's a straw purchase any time you're not the "actual purchaser".
2) Not from a dealer. That would be a straw purchase; see above.

The crime is "making a false statement in acquisition of a firearm from a licensee", for answering "yes" on the 4473, where it asks if you're the actual purchaser. You can buy it for yourself, or as a bona fide gift, but you can't buy on behalf of someone else. It doesn't matter if he can legally own it or not.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It's actually a huge liability issue as well not to follow up on an accidental 911 call.

Warren v. District of Columbia would suggest otherwise.

 

[theGringo]

Warren v. District of Columbia would suggest otherwise.

Indeed.

 

[glide]

I still do t understand what 'crime' was committed. I thought dealers selling 'off-list' guns was punishable by a fine for violating some ridiculous consumer protection horse shit.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Warren v. District of Columbia would suggest otherwise.

Holy shit. I was not aware of this.

All the more reason to always protect yourself in the home and not have cops interfere.

 

[PaulD]

Holy shit. I was not aware of this.

All the more reason to always protect yourself in the home and not have cops interfere.

Keep reading:

City says cops had no duty to protect subway hero Joseph Lozito who subdued killer Maksim Gelman and was stabbed seven times in process - NYPOST.com

Amazing Serial Killer Survival Story - YouTube

I still do t understand what 'crime' was committed. I thought dealers selling 'off-list' guns was punishable by a fine for violating some ridiculous consumer protection horse shit.

The EOPS list and the AG regulations aren't the same.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I still do t understand what 'crime' was committed. I thought dealers selling 'off-list' guns was punishable by a fine for violating some ridiculous consumer protection horse shit.

It is a criminal offense for a dealer (and only a dealer) to sell a gun not on the EOPS la tested or target roster unless it was possessed on a MA license prior to the date of the law (1998).

A dealer (and onlu a dealer) selling a gun the AG deems "unsafe" based on vague regulations (no list) is a civil matter punishable by a fine, but is not a criminal offense.

The two involve similar actions, but are distinctly different.

 

[cmacclel]

Your friend answered wrong.

What should of his answer been?

 

[Terminator03]

Just want to share a story with you guys.
I was once calling from home on a land line a mobile number in Russia and the area code there was 911. No idea how I messed up but I ended up making a 911 call. I realized that when a 911 operator answered it. So I just said – sorry, wrong number. Guess what, 5 minutes later 2 police cruisers were in front of my house and the police were knocking on my door. Think if I had not let them in they would have broken in anyway. Because they were looking for a person who might have made that call. Though I told them right away that I had. They went through every room, basement and the garage asking tons of questions like Who slept in this bed?, What is this for? (pointing at a self-made bike stand in the garage), Why is a car with out-of-state plates in the garage? etc.
Wonder what you would do in such a situation? Tell them to go away and come back with a warrant?

Just curious why you let them in at all? I would politely explain how I accidentally made the call, and maybe even show them the number I was attempting to call to show that I made a legitimate mistake, but beyond that, there is no way in hell they are getting into my home without a proper warrant. I really don't have anything to hide, but nothing good can ever come from inviting them in since they can always find "something" questionable in almost every situation that could potentially jam you up.

 

[Terminator03]

What should of his answer been?

I was wondering this also! WTF is the guy supposed to say? Lying to a federal agent is a crime itself, so if you say "no" you are screwed. If you say "come back with a warrant", they will, and do you really want to invite that situation?

 

[swatgig]

I was wondering this also! WTF is the guy supposed to say? Lying to a federal agent is a crime itself, so if you say "no" you are screwed. If you say "come back with a warrant", they will, and do you really want to invite that situation?

The correct (least confrontational) answer I can come up with is "I'm sorry, but I don't think it's in my best interest to answer any questions".

I don't recommend saying "Come back with a warrant", but if you do, they will only come back with one if they can convince a judge they have probable cause to believe that there is criminal activity going on.

They're fishing.

 

[Terminator03]

The correct (least confrontational) answer I can come up with is "I'm sorry, but I don't think it's in my best interest to answer any questions".

I don't recommend saying "Come back with a warrant", but if you do, they will only come back with one if they can convince a judge they have probable cause to believe that there is criminal activity going on.

They're fishing.

I believe you are an attorney of some sort - correct? That is a good suggestion wrt to a more polite response, but in your experience will that work, and if it does, does it just end the inquiry at that point?

In reference to your second statement, does knowingly purchasing an "off list" gun constitute probable cause for criminal activity?

 

[cmacclel]

I believe you are an attorney of some sort - correct? That is a good suggestion wrt to a more polite response, but in your experience will that work, and if it does, does it just end the inquiry at that point?

In reference to your second statement, does knowingly purchasing an "off list" gun constitute probable cause for criminal activity?

The law only applies to dealers. No pistol are illegal to own in Massachusetts unless it's non AWB compliant or you live in one of those area's that restrict certain firearms.

What I don't understand is when you purchase something from a firearms dealer there is a paper trail with that purchase. So why would it be wrong to answer "Yes" if a law enforcement agent asks you to confirm that you indeed did purchase XXX on XXX date if that was there only question as someone previously posted.