3 neighbors dead following snow removal dispute in PA township

[calsdad]

Yes, I have. But as a point of note, it looks like they're just shoveling the snow across the whole street onto what appears to be an unplowed side walk. Sure, it's not their place, but this wasn't even remotely close to an appropriate answer.

Ahh yes, the proper response to "Go f*** yourself" is summary execution.
If you think this was by any means appropriate, you should probably relieve yourself of your guns before someone does it for you.

You're very conveniently ignoring the part of the story where he asked them nicely - and they told him to eff off - and this was all just a follow on chapter to what was apparently a long lasting pattern of shit between these people. I would also add - AGAIN - that what they were doing sure seemed to be ON PURPOSE, as in " where are we going to put this snow..... I don't know , how about on his property - just to piss him off"

Does all this add up to "deserve" to get shot? No - but it certainly adds up to a completely expected outcome.

 

[namedpipes]

Street view has a good picture of the neighbor good. Looks like husband & wife live in a duplex. If you look at their security video, you can see they are using their driveway and front yard for parking. They literally have no where to put the snow. People on both sides, close. Across the street, where it looks like they are putting it on his lawn, is actually what I would call his driveway

Both houses have a place to shovel snow to. Whoever has the , well... had, I guess, the brick house had tons of space for it.

For that matter, the brick house (the couple?) had a pickup truck they could have used to illegally transport the snow someplace else...

 

[Drix]

You're very conveniently ignoring the part of the story where he asked them nicely - and they told him to eff off - and this was all just a follow on chapter to what was apparently a long lasting pattern of shit between these people. I would also add - AGAIN - that what they were doing sure seemed to be ON PURPOSE, as in " where are we going to put this snow..... I don't know , how about on his property - just to piss him off"

Does all this add up to "deserve" to get shot? No - but it certainly adds up to a completely expected outcome.

You don't get to execute people who aren't threatening your life and then call it self defense just because you have the tools. We're not in grade school anymore, nor are we on the streets of chicago, lawyer up or move out if its that big of a problem.

 

[flippinfleck]

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Both houses have a place to shovel snow to. Whoever has the , well... had, I guess, the brick house had tons of space for it.

For that matter, the brick house (the couple?) had a pickup truck they could have used to illegally transport the snow someplace else...

Brick house was the shooter. Possible that the couple were dumping their snow in the spot that shows his pickup. It is also said that the husband threw 'something' at the shooter.

 

[richc]

Certainly this was a volatile situation between neighbors with a history. But... I wonder how much of their behavior was modeled after what they saw in movies. So many movies glorify standing up to a gun man, and others glorify shooting an a**h***.

Not an excuse, but it seems to be a common theme in popular culture.

 

[drgrant]

You don't get to execute people who aren't threatening your life and then call it self defense just because you have the tools. We're not in grade school anymore, nor are we on the streets of chicago, lawyer up or move out if its that big of a problem.

Nobody here is calling it self defense, lol.

 

[Drix]

Certainly this was a volatile situation between neighbors with a history. But... I wonder how much of their behavior was modeled after what they saw in movies. So many movies glorify standing up to a gun man, and others glorify shooting an a**h***.

Not an excuse, but it seems to be a common theme in popular culture.

I wouldn't say movies, but this acts out like a pretty typical conversation on social media, problem is nobody had people giving them real time advice, feedback, and updoots to their stupidity.

"Moral entitlement" all around.

 

[namedpipes]

You don't get to execute people who aren't threatening your life and then call it self defense just because you have the tools. We're not in grade school anymore, nor are we on the streets of chicago, lawyer up or move out if its that big of a problem.

And that's how our society crumbled. It used to be, couple of neighbors got aggravated with each other. They'd duke it out in the street, then patch up their cuts and bruises and possibly even reminisce about that fight last year at the block party cookout.

Now people are so "entitled" and it's so "inappropriate" to react. So it builds up and up and finally someone snaps.

But if the killer dude had "instead" popped the brick house guy in the nose, he's heading for jail.

Maybe shooting the couple was a little extreme, but predictable. I'll watch the video tonight and see if I still agree with myself, but what do y'all THINK will happen if there's no outlet for conflicts like this?

 

[Drix]

Nobody here is calling it self defense, lol.

I responded to someone who was basically justifying it, and since you don't get to go around murdering people without a badge for anything but self defense, they're more or less saying it was self defense.

 

[drgrant]

Certainly this was a volatile situation between neighbors with a history. But... I wonder how much of their behavior was modeled after what they saw in movies. So many movies glorify standing up to a gun man, and others glorify shooting an a**h***.

Not an excuse, but it seems to be a common theme in popular culture.

I think it’s just entitlement mentality, and based on prior issues with the guy they were too confident he wouldn't have the balls to shoot them. They were wrong.

 

[Salyeica]

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Both houses have a place to shovel snow to. Whoever has the , well... had, I guess, the brick house had tons of space for it.

For that matter, the brick house (the couple?) had a pickup truck they could have used to illegally transport the snow someplace else...

Address in above photo is wrong (15 W Bergh). The shooter lived at 6 W Bergh St. 13 and 15 would be on the same side of the street. I believe shooter lived in the brick house. His walk out of frame after the argument and back into frame at the time of the shooting suggests that it's down a long driveway. My guess is that the neighbors were dumping their snow in the spot where the white pickup sits in the above photos.

 

[drgrant]

I responded to someone who was basically justifying it, and since you don't get to go around murdering people without a badge for anything but self defense, they're more or less saying it was self defense.

Lol providing logical reasoning why somebody did it is not, "self defense" is typically alegal term not a discussion of morality or an explanation of what happened....

There's plenty of things that are certainly not legal but likely morally justified- for example when Gary Plauche shot that diddler in the head in the airport.... Legally wrong? Sure. The system doesn't tolerate vigilantism. Morally/Ethically? Different story. Depending on ones worldview or moral compass. This is the type of thing where, sure I would still vote on a jury to put the offender in jail- because by the letter of the law, he murdered 2 people.... yet, at the same time could easily empathize with how he "got there". Giving "victims" a free pass for their shitty behavior, is not how you stop shit like this from happening.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

I think it’s just entitlement mentality, and based on prior issues with the guy they were too confident he wouldn't have the balls to shoot them. They were wrong.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jz1TjCphXE

 

[namedpipes]

Address in above photo is wrong (15 W Bergh). The shooter lived at 6 W Bergh St. 13 and 15 would be on the same side of the street. I believe shooter lived in the brick house. His walk out of frame after the argument and back into frame at the time of the shooting suggests that it's down a long driveway. My guess is that the neighbors were dumping their snow in the spot where the white pickup sits in the above photos.

Honestly, the ratty little house doesn't look upscale enough to warrant the entitlement attitude.

If I were the likely better off guy in the brick house I'd just buy a mondo big snow blower and return all their snow right on top of their car.

 

[icyclefar]

Nobody here is calling it self defense, lol.

I have it on good authority that Mr. Spaide will be pleading DEAD at trial.

 

[not new guy]

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Both houses have a place to shovel snow to. Whoever has the , well... had, I guess, the brick house had tons of space for it.

For that matter, the brick house (the couple?) had a pickup truck they could have used to illegally transport the snow someplace else...

Yeah, my in-laws house is tiny and on a postage stamp sized lot, with a front yard about the size of the Goys'. We've managed to drop a whole hell of a lot more snow in that tiny patch out front without ever having to even think about getting any of the neighboring properties involved.

 

[Nick Leduc]

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Both houses have a place to shovel snow to. Whoever has the , well... had, I guess, the brick house had tons of space for it.

For that matter, the brick house (the couple?) had a pickup truck they could have used to illegally transport the snow someplace else...

Brick house is shooter, retaining walls and garage match what's in the video. The small patch of grass you circled on the husband and wife's yard is being used for parking. Look at the video, they have 3 cars parked next to each other. That would put 1 on long driveway, 1 on short drive, one in grass.
Because it is a duplex, the other side of the front yard isn't theirs, street view shows a small white fence splitting it.

 

[drgrant]

Honestly, the ratty little house doesn't look upscale enough to warrant the entitlement attitude.

If I were the likely better off guy in the brick house I'd just buy a mondo big snow blower and return all their snow right on top of their car.

You would be surprised usually these "20 lb of shit in a 5lb bag" neighborhoods can get dicey pretty fast. If I was King building houses in that level of density would actually just be plain out illegal. I live on a lot that's pretty small although not that small and I am lucky that I have good neighbors and also at least two dead lots across the street from me... Basically that setup of Suburbia is more or less human abuse. I'd probably mandate minimum lot sizes 2-3 times that for housing. Only way to increase density after that is a apartment building etc.

 

[grey]

You would be surprised usually these "20 lb of shit in a 5lb bag" neighborhoods can get dicey pretty fast. If I was King building houses in that level of density would actually just be plain out illegal. I live on a lot that's pretty small although not that small and I am lucky that I have good neighbors and also at least two dead lots across the street from me... Basically that setup of Suburbia is more or less human abuse. I'd probably mandate minimum lot sizes 2-3 times that for housing. Only way to increase density after that is a apartment building etc.

And in about a 5 minute drive you can be almost in the middle of nowhere. These people lived (and died) for elective conflict

 

[Junior314]

I didn't realize snow removal was such an issue for people.

I have actually walked my snow blower down the street to clear out some of the elderly neighbors property and when my neighbor across the street had his shit the bed on him he came by and borrowed mine. I can remember one occasion when my dad and I finished clearing the driveway during a big storm and the plow came down and sent a foot of snow hurling over the end of the driveway. My dad waved him down (he was in a dump truck) and next thing we knew one of the guys from the same company contracted by the town came by in a smaller pickup and cleared it out for us.

I guess I'm lucky in the neighbor department the only two complaints I have are that the kids across the street constantly park on the road in front of my driveway (makes it tight to get in and out) which was resolved by mentioning it to the son (early 20's) when he was working on his truck and my next door neighbors trash blows all over the place occasionally.

 

[mikeyp]

I was working as an intern for Worcester Public School System Network Dept during that time. Our office was in an elementary school. I watched the video with a few coworkers, not realizing just how bad it was going to be. One of my coworkers just kept yelling "shut this off " when it started, he grabbed the mouse and he minimized the window. Meanwhile the audio was still blaring. Brutal.

Yeah I wanted to see how bad it was and part of me wishes I never did, but also part of me is(and I hate to say it like this) glad I did...scary just how evil some people can really be.

 

[Scrivenerian]

I responded to someone who was basically justifying it, and since you don't get to go around murdering people without a badge for anything but self defense, they're more or less saying it was self defense.

He only offered an explanation, which is not a justification. In fact, he was careful to say the shooting wasn't deserved. You're off the mark.

 

[namedpipes]

You would be surprised usually these "20 lb of shit in a 5lb bag" neighborhoods can get dicey pretty fast. If I was King building houses in that level of density would actually just be plain out illegal. I live on a lot that's pretty small although not that small and I am lucky that I have good neighbors and also at least two dead lots across the street from me... Basically that setup of Suburbia is more or less human abuse. I'd probably mandate minimum lot sizes 2-3 times that for housing. Only way to increase density after that is a apartment building etc.

My answer is the Human Cube.

Picture a manufactured module (would actually come in several sizes to accommodate larger or smaller families). It would internally be sorta like a double wide, except the windows would be LCD panels showing images of the outdoors. At both ends are doors opening into a built in section of hallway. Sprinkle in an occasional common module. Now stack them like Lego's with the utilities all interlocking as you stack them. Allow 50'x50' (much larger than that double wide) and you can fit 10k units per square mile. Stack them 10 layers deep and you have 100k units per square mile. There are around 124 million families in the US, so we'll need to cover around 1240 or so square miles. That "sounds" like a lot, but it's only 35 miles on a side. That's barely a ranch out west.

Ok, it would wind up a bit larger because that just the residential. We'd need some recreation space, commercial space, etc and there would need to be a way to extract failing units for replacement, etc. But basically, the entire population of the United States "could" easily fit into a space smaller than Rhode Island.

And there'd be no snow to shovel, rain to flood the basement, etc.

High Density farms nearby would grow/raise the food - it wouldn't even need to be that soylent stuff.

Of course, Europe would need one of their own. Asia and India would probably need several each... But pretty soon the entire world would be living within these self contained communities.

I think I've made my point. Modern problems. Modern solutions.

You're welcome. I'll be solving prison overpopulation next week. (spoiler, it'll be a variation on these modules, but without doors...)

 

[Mtn_Guy]

​

 

[AHM]

Once he started shooting start running.

Hopefully in opposite directions,
so the shooter has to choose which to take on first.

For bonus points, serpentining the whole way.

In what world are you supposed to just let people shit all over you and then tell you to go phuck yourself when you ask them to stop?

A world where you can drop a dime to the cops
and they can actually resolve the dispute equitably?

(Well, maybe the start of the feud is grist for a civil suit;
but let that go).


This particular "Hatfields vs. McCoys" grudge match
was old news to the cops, and I'm sure they'd long ago
had their assload of it. I wouldn't have been surprised if
it had turned into a he-said/she-said situation where the original
transgressor was lost in the mists of time,
and everyone is doubling down to protect their turf.

Because if it was a 0%/100% deal, wouldn't you have hoped that
the cops would start handing out real Legal Lumps to the miscreant(s),
to get them to STFU and behave themselves?

And it being a (multifamily) Domestic Dispute,
it of course is the kind of call that they hate getting.

But I have to wonder whether some cops are quietly sick
at the thought that if only they'd (been allowed to)
put their foot down harder, sooner, on somebody,
that this might never have happened?

The system doesn't tolerate vigilantism.

The "system" sits around eating donuts,
plotting how to send mental health professionals
to resolve situations like this.

It seems like it was scant weeks ago that
some of us were warning each other with the truism that
the cops are there to protect the criminals from society...

 

[mjbff]

Just another reason to carry a firearm for self defense

 

[Dr_Scholl]

Deescalate, deescalate, deescalate.

you never know who is on the other end of that FU you’re slinging, or which side of the bed they woke up on.

This.

I had a truck totaled back in March by a guy who cut me off from the merge lane and then proceeded to brake check me until he caused a collision. When we pulled off to the side of the road, the last thing I did was get hostile or get in the guys face. The last thing I want is for something to get physical and some random person pull a gun and shoot me.

After a brief argument and assessment of the damage, I let him drive off. Then I called the cops and they got him for fleeing the scene. He lost his license for a year and I got a new truck.

 

[drgrant]

Just another reason to carry a firearm for self defense

No, it's not. Not really a good example. I doubt anyone in this thread would find themselves in this
scenario, or even if they did, would ALSO at the same time, pick all the wrong choices that would result in the outcome that happened.

If you're not an a**h*** your odds of getting mugged or dealing with a home invader or something are way higher. THAT is why you
should carry a gun. Shit like this is EASILY avoidable. I have much better chance of getting hit/killed by one of the cut-through faggots speeding down my street while running my snowblower than any one of my neighbors. And I live in a neighborhood where next door, a few years ago someone set two of their cars on fire right in the front yard. (nobody every told me what led to that, but I do not think that was a "neighborhood" beef at all. )

 

[AHM]

In what world are you supposed to just let people shit all over you and then tell you to go phuck yourself when you ask them to stop?

A world where you can drop a dime to the cops
and they can actually resolve the dispute equitably?

Wait, wait; is that one of those "rhetorical questions" I hear so much about...?

You would be surprised usually these "20 lb of shit in a 5lb bag" neighborhoods can get dicey pretty fast. If I was King building houses in that level of density would actually just be plain out illegal. I live on a lot that's pretty small although not that small and I am lucky that I have good neighbors and also at least two dead lots across the street from me... Basically that setup of Suburbia is more or less human abuse. I'd probably mandate minimum lot sizes 2-3 times that for housing. Only way to increase density after that is a apartment building etc.

Sprawlist!

My answer is the Human Cube.

Picture a manufactured module (would actually come in several sizes to accommodate larger or smaller families). It would internally be sorta like a double wide, except the windows would be LCD panels showing images of the outdoors.

It's been done.

... stack them like Lego's with the utilities all interlocking as you stack them. Allow 50'x50' (much larger than that double wide) and you can fit 10k units per square mile. Stack them 10 layers deep and you have 100k units per square mile. There are around 124 million families in the US, so we'll need to cover around 1240 or so square miles.

Dig it.

My paraphrase from memory:

An eco-terrorist group trolls Useful Idiot youts into​

invading an arcology's critical utility corridor;​

a corridor heavily placarded about being protected by​

lethal intruder control systems.​

​

They ignore the signage and get stacked like cordwood.​

​

Someone complains about the children, but is asked,​

"Could they read the danger signs?".​

​

"Well, yes".​

Everyone's favorite line from the novel:

"Think of it as evolution in action".​

 

[Fixxah]

There is a reason I plowed all the side streets on lower main st in Worc with a 1986 Chevy one ton, the truck had more damage from people hitting it with shovels, garbage cans and lawn chairs than from plowing, I plowed slow and didn't beat on my truck, but I would never buy a new truck for city plowing.

"The road has to stay open", that's what my route inspector would tell us. I got bitched at by a Fire Capt after EMS could not make it up a hill off May st. He complained to my inspector and I lost that route the next year.
So yes I get it you shoveled out the end of your driveway and I come along tired, running on nothing but cold coffee and old muffins, probably need to take a crap and I plow in the end of your driveway, I am sorry but its my job to keep the roads open.

After I lost that route I went into another guys loader and did parking lots, miss that truck but don't miss the headaches that went with it.

I have been plowing the dead end I live on for 35 years because the town rarely admits we exist. I own the last home and lot on the street and when they do actually plow, they push the whole pile to my house. Because they know I have a plow, all the neighbors expect me to keep things cleaned up. I don't plow for anyone or make money, it is mostly karma for the old people and if I see old timers out in a storm, I always take care of them.
One neighbor with a gravel driveway gave me the stink eye a couple of years ago because I didn't rake the stones back off of her lawn.
Now they have to shovel four spaces on my street and two spaces on the main roadand that is on a big hill.
In my lifetime, the road has been paved two times and near the bottom of the road there has been a decent pothole since last spring.
Out of sight out of mind unless they need something.
And after spending days with little sleep, having some a**h*** giving me shit about the snow, I can see how easily some are triggered.
A friend was plowing a big lot once and someone parked in the way. I asked them to park elsewhere and git the finger. After everyone left, my friend slammed snow around every inch of the car. Never got to see what it looked like and that was the last storm my friend plowed for the contractor. But the satisfaction was worth it.




So I hear.