3 neighbors dead following snow removal dispute in PA township

[Nick Leduc]

An armed society is a polite society.

You would think after watching all the riots and other shennanigans over the last year more people would subscribe to this philosophy, especially considering that if a few people had gotten their asses shot dead right in the beginning - we might not have had to watch months and months of rioting and looting.

Apparently the new progressive view of the way society should work is that everybody should be free to act like their most ahole self - without any fear of repercussions.

I have a shirt that says "peace thru superior firearms". A lot of truth there.

 

[richc]

Yeah you got to be careful with those fire hydrants. Even if you don’t damage any imagine they had a fire? Like it’s already bad enough they got a fight fire in 3 feet of snow but they can’t get any water.Trucks don’t hold nearly as much water as you think.

Just because the city owns a certain amount of the front of your yard doesn’t mean he has any legal right to be there. It’s one of those things where they could’ve just asked. I normally say no but I have a whole fleet of trucks parked in the yard right now and it’s ruined so I’d probably let them go for it..

I haven’t use my snowblower this year but it throws it like 65 feet so I can literally just blow it out on my front yard and when I get towards the end of my driveway I can launch it across the street but it disperses itself and I asked the neighbors and they don’t care...No one shovels the sidewalks but I have the ability to launch it clear across and over them in case somebody does deside to shovel

I'm the guy who snowblows out that fire hydrant every storm. Chief asked me to years ago and I learned it was a good idea.

The other problem with the idiot snowplow guy was he was pushing snow across the street, picking up salt and sand, and dumping it on our lawn. That part of the lawn was damaged every year. Not cool.

I grew up on a thin one way street in Dorchester. My Mom was like Granny from the Beverly Hillbillies. She'd see the plow guy coming up the street and know our driveway and cars were about to get piled high with snow. She'd be out of the front porch in her nightgown yelling, "You stupid son-of-a- bitch" to the plow driver. I feel your pain...

 

[calsdad]

While this is true, I bet in this case there is a stack of retard conferences that happened before this one. It generally takes two entities or two sets of people feeding off each others retardation to go full retard, much like a road rage thing, etc. So it naturally escalates until something fails or someone snaps. Shocker.

Not always though....... In my experience whenever there's a retard slap fight - it's always one side that got the thing started. One guy clearing his snow thinks it's ok to just snow blow the stuff all on to the neighbor's property. Neighbor asks him to stop - guy with snow blower tells him to phuck off. I'd squarely lay the blame for whatever happens after that - even if it's years later ...... directly on snow blower guy.

People seem to forget : there's a decent segment of the population that seems to feel that they're entitled to just do whatever stupid shit they feel like doing, and if you call them out on it - they don't apologize - they get pissed off. Dealing with somebody like that over a long enough period of time is enough to drive even the most sane person right off the edge. Because most people can't find a way to get themselves outside of the cycle and do something that will truly make it stop.

 

[calsdad]

All Bullshit here aside, executing an unarmed human being face down in the street is extremely f***ed up, retard convention or otherwise.

Straight out of a movie.

When you're actually shooting at somebody - and they're still standing there telling you to phuck off - after having had to deal with years of their bullshit - you have to start to wonder "what is it exactly that is going to make these two douchebags stop harassing me ........................................ (brain processes for a few seconds) - hmmmmmmmmm - maybe I'm actually going to have to shoot these phuckers..............."

 

[SHOCKNAWE]

I’m reading this thread and aside from the bizarre “White Privilege” nonsense I find myself agreeing with a lot of the different view points here. History has a way of eventually catching up and tearing it’s ugly head. I’ve had neighbors that were high maintenance and bitchy about stupid shit like the backyard fire is too Smokey, loud music on a Saturday afternoon while drinking beers or asking me to coordinate leaf pick up so shit doesn’t blow into each other’s yards ect.. but all of it was settled by common courtesy. I think that’s the problem with a lot of issues today, it’s a lack of common courtesy and self entitlement. When some shit gets pushed too far and someone on the receiving end has had a rough couple of however how long shit like this can happen. You never know what’s going on in peoples personal lives to make them finally have “Enough”

 

[calsdad]

Yup.

Reminds me of a conversation my father had with me when I was a kid. If your going to run your mouth to someone be prepared to deal with the worst possible outcome you can imagine and be prepared to end it.

When I was a kid my father used to tell me: "if you're going to do something stupid - don't do it in your own neighborhood". He grew up in NYC , so I can see why he probably said that.

Many years later - I had just gotten out of college and was living at home before getting my own place. Some of the kids from the next street over were in the front lawn of the house across the street knocking over the Portugese guys lawn ornaments and ceramic donkey. It was a bright sunny Saturday afternoon. When the guy across the street came out - the kids all scattered with some of them taking up residence behind my brand new car (first one ever). I walked over and started yelling at them to get the eff away from my car. They started giving me shit and told me not to let the guy across the street know where they were. I told them he already saw you - and I don't give a shit - get the eff away from my car. They gave me shit - and then ran right thru my father's property to get back to their house on the next street.

Then a couple of hours later - they came back.

This time I told the guy across the street exactly who they were - told them to get the eff away from my car again - and they all started giving ME shit. So after they all scattered and ran back home - I drove around the block to where I knew they lived , told them to stay the phuck out of my father's property and stay the hell away from my car. At this point their father came out - started giving ME shit , and the kids were all denying what had happened. So I laid out all the details - including part where they came back a second time ...... and then I said

"Look when I was a kid my father told me if I was going to do stupid shit - go do it in somebody else's neighborhood - I've lived here for 15 years - I know exactly who your kids are - and that's why I knew to come here - I've got better things to do on a Saturday afternoon than waste my time with this phucking bullshit - tell your kids to stay off my neighbor's lawn and stay the phuck away from my car - the next time I'm not coming over here to tell you about it."

The father stopped for a second - whacked the older kid right in the head - and then told all three of them to get in the damn house.

Sometimes you just need to frame something in the proper way.

 

[mikeyp]

My guess based on how the couple was acting is they were intentionally and constantly f***ing with that guy forever and he just finally snapped. And once you snap, the first shot is expensive and the rest are free.

Once he put a bullet in one of them, it's attempted murder along with a litany of other charges. So why stop when the government is going to skewer you anyway?

Also this is def not even close to the top of the disturbing list. Go watch some ISIS videos if you want to see disturbing.

That Daniel Pearl video will never be out of my head...

 

[calsdad]

You got to understand that when someone is breaking their ass shoveling and shoveling and shoveling and they finally clear the end of the driveway so the car can get out and you drive by and put a few feet of snow right back where they just shoveled, it can make people a little crazy LOL

People are stupid.

If you shovel out the end of the driveway - and the plow comes by again - it's going to dump a pretty good amount of the snow that plow is carrying right into the empty space at the end of your driveway.

Unless I absolutely have to get someplace - I just wait as long as I can to clear out the end of the driveway for exactly that reason.

Snow clearing mechanics 101.

 

[FormerlyIndifferent]

Jesus, I bet the dead couple thought they were going to show him a thing or two....

And holy cognitive dissonance Batman, they're still mouthing off to the guy while he's shooting at them.

 

[Nick Leduc]

That Daniel Pearl video will never be out of my head...

I was working as an intern for Worcester Public School System Network Dept during that time. Our office was in an elementary school. I watched the video with a few coworkers, not realizing just how bad it was going to be. One of my coworkers just kept yelling "shut this off " when it started, he grabbed the mouse and he minimized the window. Meanwhile the audio was still blaring. Brutal.

 

[xtry51]

Jesus, I bet the dead couple thought they were going to show him a thing or two....

And holy cognitive dissonance Batman, they're still mouthing off to the guy while he's shooting at them.

This is exactly why I'm 99% sure they made that guys life miserable until he snapped.

I'm also sure they were entitled Biden voters just based on their general demeanor.

 

[nstassel]

f*** around find out. Is the guy you're taunting mercilessly with your big mouth a punk or a cold blooded murderer about to snap?

 

[oldguy68]

We're going to make your life miserable!
Upset neighbor, hold my beer...

 

[calsdad]

More details emerge in Plains Township 'snow removal' turned deadly

So the Goys were clearing the snow by hand, walking it across the street, and throwing it on his property? Then James threw "an implement" at him and started screaming threats, insults and obscenities at him? It obviously doesn't justify the response, but they sound like a couple of real shitbags themselves.

Street view has a good picture of the neighbor good. Looks like husband & wife live in a duplex. If you look at their security video, you can see they are using their driveway and front yard for parking. They literally have no where to put the snow. People on both sides, close. Across the street, where it looks like they are putting it on his lawn, is actually what I would call his driveway
View attachment 446078
View attachment 446079

I'd say those pictures - combined with the fact that the video shows there's maybe 4-5 inches of snow on the ground at best - clearly show the husband and wife who got shot were a couple of douchebags.

They're shoveling the snow all the way across the street to dump on the shooter's property - when there are patches of lawn they could have dumped the snow on to - and those patches of lawn were CLOSER - than the shooter's property....... and they weren't full enough up with snow to *maybe* give the excuse that you had to dump the snow somewhere else.

In other words - they went out of their way to dump the snow on to his property AND THEN told him to phuck off.

And people wonder why - after asking them to stop doing that - and having them raise a fist to the guy and tell him to phuck off - he got pissed off enough to start taking shots at them?

 

[Emacs]

I'd say those pictures - combined with the fact that the video shows there's maybe 4-5 inches of snow on the ground at best - clearly show the husband and wife who got shot were a couple of douchebags.

They're shoveling the snow all the way across the street to dump on the shooter's property - when there are patches of lawn they could have dumped the snow on to - and those patches of lawn were CLOSER - than the shooter's property....... and they weren't full enough up with snow to *maybe* give the excuse that you had to dump the snow somewhere else.

In other words - they went out of their way to dump the snow on to his property AND THEN told him to phuck off.

And people wonder why - after asking them to stop doing that - and having them raise a fist to the guy and tell him to phuck off - he got pissed off enough to start taking shots at them?

I think there's a lot of truth to this quote by Iron Mike:

 

[allen-1]

I hung out with a rough crowd in my misspent youth. I could tell stories all day, but the biggest take away Is that you shouldn’t F around and run your mouth to strangers no matter how tough you are. I was always amused by the look of surprise and shock on some dooshbags face when he gets laid out for running his food hole.

another one of those aphorisms to live by: "Never let your alligator mouth overload your canary ass".

I was standing next to Fats in the Bank Street Cafe one day, (bar in New London, CT). Guy on the other side of him said something, I have no idea what. Fats smashed him in the face with his beer mug, then kicked him a few times after he went down, screaming at him while he did so.

I have absolutely no idea what set him off, and I was standing right there.

I told my riding partner about it later, (Bobby's known Fats for years), and he laughed; then said "and he says you're crazy".

Good times, bad times, crazy, f***ing fun times. Misspent youth, all good.

 

[calsdad]

We're going to make your life miserable!
Upset neighbor, hold my beer...

It's not just that.

Maybe I take too "logical" of an approach to shit like this - but if it was me my head would have been going " lazy ass neighbor and wife are hauling snow all the way across the street and dumping it on property - when they could just shovel it 6 feet off to the side and put on their admitted postage stamp front lawn...... hmmmm ...... this seems to equal going OUT OF THEIR WAY to act like a couple of scumbags". Let me go talk to them and ask them to stop doing that. If they apologize I can just walk away. Well well well - no apology - but a heartfelt go phuck yourself .... suspicion confirmed..... neighbors are complete and total azzhooles. Go get the gun and let's see if they still want to act like pricks - because I'm sick of this shit.

 

[Fixxah]

Ugh, yeah and now I'll go insane until I find that thread.

Big Red.

 

[MGnoob]

“ There is still no word on how they were obtained.”

Who the f*** cares he’s over 21...They are his guns...My guess is he went to a place where you would get guns.... you know a ffl, or a dunkin donuts, or burgerking...Maybe you inherited them he got them from his dead families safes..

Really has no bearing on him shooting his neighbors

 

[Racenet]

People are stupid.

If you shovel out the end of the driveway - and the plow comes by again - it's going to dump a pretty good amount of the snow that plow is carrying right into the empty space at the end of your driveway.

Unless I absolutely have to get someplace - I just wait as long as I can to clear out the end of the driveway for exactly that reason.

Snow clearing mechanics 101.

We live on the road that all the plows go in and out from, so there really isn't any no plow time during the snowy season. They are out at 4:30am sharp with the slightest snow. What I normally do when I finish the driveway, is take a few swipes along the road above the driveway with the blower, to widen that section, which means less snow being picked up by the plow before it gets to the driveway. Works like a charm. Also keeps them from chewing up the grass along there when they start their widening phase.

 

[n1oty]

The couple have to be the stupidest couple of people I've ever seen. Why would you stand there and taunt someone with a gun pointed at you? Once he started shooting start running. I mean Jesus Christ some tough guys think they're indestructible.

The problem here is that your average American is generally unaware of just how fragile life can be and just how quickly things can go horribly wrong. Their fight/flight response is so dulled from disuse as to essentially be useless when the excrement really hits the rotating fan blades. Compare this to anyone who has performed a job at which their safety is constantly at jeopardy. Cops, firemen, guards and soldiers-in-combat have a completely different mindset where their senses are constantly engaged. As an example, watch any documentary war footage where gunfire or an explosion goes off nearby unexpectedly and you see EVERYONE make a sudden response such as ducking for cover or a sudden change in the direction they are moving to throw off the aim of the enemy. Movements are really instinctual. Now, compare that to the movements of these dead people. They have been utterly comfortable for so long that their own natural instinct for survival does not even begin to kick in until it's too late.

 

[calsdad]

The problem here is that your average American is generally unaware of just how fragile life can be and just how quickly things can go horribly wrong. Their fight/flight response is so dulled from disuse as to essentially be useless when the excrement really hits the rotating fan blades. Compare this to anyone who has performed a job at which their safety is constantly at jeopardy. Cops, firemen, guards and soldiers-in-combat have a completely different mindset where their senses are constantly engaged. As an example, watch any documentary war footage where gunfire or an explosion goes off nearby unexpectedly and you see EVERYONE make a sudden response such as ducking for cover or a sudden change in the direction they are moving to throw off the aim of the enemy. Movements are really instinctual. Now, compare that to the movements of these dead people. They have been utterly comfortable for so long that their own natural instinct for survival does not even begin to kick in until it's too late.

People are also unaware of how emotions can "ratchet".

There's been studies done on the psyche of rapists, multiple murder'ers and serial killers. One of the things that can set them off - is acquiescing to their demands , it sets off some sort of predator/prey instinct in them and they often treat their victims very brutally.

In the case of this PA thing , I'd say the shooter's emotions 'ratcheted' , both based on what happened during this one incident - but also on previous history. It seems pretty clear that he started off asking them to stop doing that (dumping the snow on to his property) , and they responded with "phuck you". Then he comes out and just starts shooting in their general direction - and they are STILL going "phuck you". Then the shooter finally comes out with the rifle - he goes right up to the wife and says " you should have kept your phucking mouth shut".

Which would seem a pretty good indicator of what finally made him snap enough to decide to shoot those two.

 

[calsdad]

“ There is still no word on how they were obtained.”

Who the f*** cares he’s over 21...They are his guns...My guess is he went to a place where you would get guns.... you know a ffl, or a dunkin donuts, or burgerking...Maybe you inherited them he got them from his dead families safes..

Really has no bearing on him shooting his neighbors

According to Wiki - no state license required to purchase pistols - or rifles.

Would seem to indicate that the question of "There is still no word on how they were obtained", could be answered with : " drove down to the store and bought them"

 

[Fixxah]

Jesus f***in Christ, and you wonder why the anti-gunners are such zealots.

Thanks dude, did the law abiding community a great f***ing service, thinking letting your self centered neighbors dump snow on your lawn might have been the smarter choice.

Have you ever had road chemicals dumoed on your perfectly coiffed lawn? How dare you...

 

[calsdad]

Jesus f***in Christ, and you wonder why the anti-gunners are such zealots.

Thanks dude, did the law abiding community a great f***ing service, thinking letting your self centered neighbors dump snow on your lawn might have been the smarter choice.

If you think that's what is going on here - you're not paying attention.

He asked them to stop doing that - they told him to go phuck himself.

In what world are you supposed to just let people shit all over you and then tell you to go phuck yourself when you ask them to stop?

 

[AHM]

This reservation system is well established tradition in parts of Boston, and the city even announces how long they will leave space savers out before they are picked up as trash. The threat of vandalism to vehicles whose owners ignore this tradition keeps people in line, and it is likely more effective than a city "no parking" sign.

Not knowing of suche quainte Ye Newe Englande Traditiones,
The Bride once made the mistake of snagging a conveniently shoveled-out side street space
in Worcester offa Route 9 up the hill from Quinsigamond.
(We had to have been gathering separately at the Picadilly Pub,
and she was too frustrated to explore the whole strip mall parking lot
because there were no spaces up front).

When she got back to her car after dinner,
some frumpy hausfrau popped out of the house and screamed
ScratchyBreakyPunctury threats at her car if she ever did it again.

The Bride never did it again.

I never had a chance to do it,
and now I never would.

New England.


Although, at least pre-NestCam, if you're gonna go FR over a parking space,
you'd best write down the license plate of the car that stole your space
before you start running your mouth.

Because you might run up against some sneaky douche that comes back
the next night and ruins your car. And if you don't know who you yelled at
from your front stoop in the winter night, you have zero chance
of getting the vandal caught by the boys down at the Crime Lab.

(And no, this isn't some sly allusion to me actually trashing someone's car. Jus' sayin').

it helps to speed read the article even before poasting, tho. because if you did you would have seen that it was written by someone who was on crack or something

You can't passive-aggressively write "[sic]" in the subject line
if you don't realize it's not actually Philly.

Honestly, it's a good lesson on what NOT to do when a gun is presented during an argument ...

Word.

... and also a reason to have a gun because you never know when someone's switch it going to flip into attack mode.

On the one hand, I agree that if you can't defend against that, what's the point.
On the other hand, NES thinks this incidence was FR;
but peak FR would have been the two snow-flingers pulling their own pieces
and re-enacting the Gunfight at the OK Corral on webcam.


(Away from home, where no one knows your name),
better to refuse to engage even if jeers of "pussy" follow you down the street,
so you can think back in future years,
"imagine how bad the entire rest of my life would be
if my retort had been to brandish, let alone punctuate".

At home, better to refuse to engage openly with the bad neighbors,
because it ruins your life until/unless you move.

lots of folks who spend their 9-5 in a cubicle, struggle with the physical challenge.
After 8 hours of intense physical activity, totally exhausted, when a plow driver comes by and pushes a fresh berm three feet tall of heavy wet snow at the end of your driveway, I think the desire to hit the guy with a shovel is pretty much human nature.

Betcha there'd be more shovel-on-plow violence
if only they could still summon the energy lift the shovel.

I may have to re-institute my stump wall..
@fencer

Sure, you laugh; it's your day job.
Just remember what they say...

And hubby called the neighbor a pussy?!?

I think hubby had already caught some lead by the time he retreated under the cam.

There is a reason I plowed all the side streets on lower main st in Worc with a 1986 Chevy one ton, the truck had more damage from people hitting it with shovels, garbage cans and lawn chairs than from plowing,

Run into any frumpy hausfraus with a bad attitude?
Or do they all live off of Shrewsbury St?

... if I have that pusher full of snow I cant break and lose all my momentum then try and restart, it just wont have the power to restart the push.
Once that motor is making its boost from the turbo you need to stay in it, ...

They should work that fun factoid into Bob the Builder tapes for kids,
so the next generation will grow up understanding it.

Judging by the video - I don't see any reason why the husband and wife NEEDED to dump snow onto his property - which was ACROSS THE STREET , other than to just be a couple of douchebags.

I wonder whether the shooter used that curbside space
at the foot of the lawn bulkhead for primary parking
when ice storms, etc. made it too slippery
to get up his steep driveway and into his garage.

(Wildly speculating in a manner not necessarily supported by the webcam shots),
maybe the husband and wife team were deliberately throwing snow in that "winter space".
Which if actually true, would rub a lot of peoples' rhubarb.

They sure looked too damned fat to be carrying snow across the street
to fling above the bulkhead.

If you shovel out the end of the driveway - and the plow comes by again - it's going to dump a pretty good amount of the snow that plow is carrying right into the empty space at the end of your driveway.

Unless I absolutely have to get someplace - I just wait as long as I can to clear out the end of the driveway for exactly that reason.

Nosso fast.

When our previous snow blower was in the twilight of its years,
it could barely saw through a berm of 31°F hardpack.
Leave that crap until it set into a solid dike of ice,
and we could never get through it short of pulling out the mattock.

If it was a wet snow, I sometimes had to get out there mid-storm
to gnaw away at the berm that the town wasn't even done humping up,
because I couldn't wait until it was done snowing.

And even though we recently bought a new 28" Ariens,
I don't know if it'll saw through a berm.

I'm also sure they were entitled Biden voters just based on their general demeanor.

No obvious contributions, no obvious political registrations.

 

[Drix]

Have you ever had road chemicals dumoed on your perfectly coiffed lawn? How dare you...

Yes, I have. But as a point of note, it looks like they're just shoveling the snow across the whole street onto what appears to be an unplowed side walk. Sure, it's not their place, but this wasn't even remotely close to an appropriate answer.

If you think that's what is going on here - you're not paying attention.

He asked them to stop doing that - they told him to go phuck himself.

In what world are you supposed to just let people shit all over you and then tell you to go phuck yourself when you ask them to stop?

Ahh yes, the proper response to "Go f*** yourself" is summary execution.
If you think this was by any means appropriate, you should probably relieve yourself of your guns before someone does it for you.

 

[kevin9]

Sadly, there appears to have been more than enough stupid to go around for everyone. One often hears the phrase "Stupid should hurt." In this case stupid killed 3 people.

 

[calsdad]

Nosso fast.

When our previous snow blower was in the twilight of its years,
it could barely saw through a berm of 31°F hardpack.
Leave that crap until it set into a solid dike of ice,
and we could never get through it short of pulling out the mattock.

If it was a wet snow, I sometimes had to get out there mid-storm
to gnaw away at the berm that the town wasn't even done humping up,
because I couldn't wait until it was done snowing.

And even though we recently bought a new 28" Ariens,
I don't know if it'll saw through a berm.

Well there is that.. If I think the snowbank is going to freeze solid - I'll get out and clear it.

Either way though - going nutso on the plow truck driver just seems a little bit nuts if you ask me, the streets ARE going to get plowed one way or another and the simple mechanics of is that if the end of your driveway is clear - a whole bunch of snow is going to get dumped there.

Some things jst are the way they are , if you don't like it - well then use your brain genius and come up with a better way.

Otherwise STFU.

Every now and then my wife will go off on some rant that's just a version of screaming at the heavens.

When she gets particularly bad I just tell her " look , it is the way it is, but if you're really intent on complaining to the person responsible why don't you just shoot yourself in the head and go take it up with God when you get there"

 

[drgrant]

Honestly, it's a good lesson on what NOT to do when a gun is presented during an argument and also a reason to have a gun because you never know when someone's switch it going to flip into attack mode.

All the more incentive to carry a gun even when you take out the trash.

Lol, i think the incident has very little to do with carrying guns and everything to do with, well, not being an a**h***. Most people simply don't have these problems.