Why all the hate for .40s&w?

[GSG]

Ballistics tech has changed a lot since the early 1900s; but most of all, a "good-seeming rule of thumb" is weak second to lab testing and a poor, distant cousin to results on the street.

+1. Street results rule the game.

This is why ballistic testing of handgun cartridges is often reduced to simple things- like shooting a block of calibrated balgel with intermediate barriers in front of it. It's hard to dispute things like the distance traveled into the block, the expansion and retained weight of the bullet, etc. The thing people don't like about this is most handgun calibers end up in the same realm from 9mm through .45. .357 Sig and 10mm make "interesting" things happen to the test fixtures once in awhile, but 9, .40, and .45 are close enough for it to be somewhat of a wash. (Look at Terraformer's balgel pic above... ) There is a huge advantage with .357 Sig for intermediate barrier penetration, but that's another topic altogether, and isn't necessarily linked to wound ballistics. (EG, good bonded core .357 Sig punches through auto glass with minimal deviation in trajectory; other handgun calibers have "issues" with auto glass, especially windshields. )

I'll confess, I'm a .357 SIG guy, I like it a lot, aside from the price and ammo selection.

But look at the 1319 FPS 125 grain .357 SIG load in the picture terraformer posted:

But really, do you want to be shot with any of these rounds?

I remember I shot some DoubleTap .357 SIG 125 grainers over your chrono at the range out of my 3.5 inch Glock 33 barrel and they were doing 1325-1350 FPS! I want to know what kind of nuetered .357 SIG loading they were using for that round.

I have a theory. I think that most of the major manufacturers want all of their defense ammo to perform the same. Look at the Winchester website and their posted results...it's like they loaded everything to perform exactly the same. Why? My guess is to sell lots of every caliber.

If .380 properly loaded with a quality JHP blew every other caliber out of the water when it came to wound channels, barrier penetration, etc., everyone would want that new wonder cartridge. Yes I'm using hyperbole to illustrate my point.

But I think that a lot of gun owners forget that these companies are trying to market a product to a wide range of people. They want the 9mm guys, the .45 guys, the .38 guys to all use their brand. So what do they do? They level the playing field. They make 10mm recoil like a 9mm for recoil sensitive folks, and make 9mm as fast as a down-loaded .357 SIG to corner that market. Then they bundle it all up and market it to every PD and civilian gun owner as the best all around.

Maybe I'm crazy, but it's like Stalin said, "It doesn't matter how many people vote, what matters is who counts them."

I'd just like to know who's scoring these tests.

I'd rather know what trauma surgeons won't carry.

Awesome! Me too!

A shot to the head will usually put someone down (failure drill, or, for those who knew it from a while ago, the Mozambique Method). So, logic would dictate that to stop someone immediately, you would puncture their squash. 9, .40, .38, .357, .45-I think all these would do. Hell, even a .22 would, with a good shot.

Not quite true. A ton of people survive GSW's to the head, and are ambulatory for days afterwards.

We were actually encouraged to engage the pelvis in failure to stop drills.

Yep! Break them bones, and no matter how high they are they can't charge you.

"What the police use" is hardly relevant. Caliber selection by PDs is based on a variety of factors, terminal wound ballistics is only one of many factors.

BTW, the P11 is a 9mm.

Yeah, the money a department like NYPD saves using 9mm duty pistols over .40 is astounding when you consider that there's 35,000 or so officers. That's also why they use the cheapest frickin' OC on the market, not because of quality, but becuase of their price.

And think of the double-tap time w/ that 10mm kick?

I've shot full house 10mm loads out of a Glock 29, and they felt like 9mm out of a G17 to me. But like everything, YMMV.

The .45 acp however was designed because it would pick you up and throw you down, taking the fight out of the target, narcotics or not.

Not even remotely. I've seen video of point blank shots from 5 inch barreled .45 pistols that did nothing to the perp, and spoken firsthand to people who've shot people with the .45 that were unfazed. Unless you shoot a squirrel with it, nothing's picking you up and throwing you down. All handgun calibers are weak.

Then of course you do not want over penetration....

I do. If they're bleeding from two holes instead of one, they'll lose blood faster, which will be one more factor in taking them out of the fight.

The best reason to carry a particular gun or caliber!!

+1

In the infamous shoot-out with bank-robbers (armed with long-guns), the FBI had several agents killed and more wounded. They commissioned a study to find out what went wrong. The study determined that their marksmanship had been good, but the terminal ballistics of their rounds had been too slow to incapacitate the bad guys.

Look at how many rounds were fired vs. how many even hit the guys they were aiming at. It doesn't matter how good a caliber is if basic marksmanship isn't down pat.

 

[Coyote33]

So, would you say to use hotter reloads instead of bland factory loads for defensive use? Is that a good idea? Or are you telling us the Double Tap is the one for you? Does this one stand out for some particular reason? Now I'm wondering what load they chose and why, and what the latest preferred "carry" (defense) load is these days. I always thought people leaned towards Winchester Rangers, Remington Golden Sabers, Hydra Shok, Silver Tip, Corbon, and now these. Gee, I haven't seen a "Which is the preferred carry round?" thread lately. Not knocking you, just wondering.

 

[GSG]

So, would you say to use hotter reloads instead of bland factory loads for defensive use? Is that a good idea?

Go for it if you want. But that's not what I meant exactly. I'd suggest using full power loads, provided your gun can take it, like Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, or other brands that are similar. No holds barred stuff.

Ultimately a bullet's a bullet, and I'll carry what's most reliable in my gun.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

The .45 acp however was designed because it would pick you up and throw you down, taking the fight out of the target, narcotics or not.

Not even remotely. I've seen video of point blank shots from 5 inch barreled .45 pistols that did nothing to the perp, and spoken firsthand to people who've shot people with the .45 that were unfazed. Unless you shoot a squirrel with it, nothing's picking you up and throwing you down. All handgun calibers are weak.

I guess I should start carrying the SW500 than for self defense, because apparently the .45 acp is a joke. I'll take your advise and just use it for squirrels

Did you see these videos on the interwebs?

 

[lupis42]

Go for it if you want. But that's not what I meant exactly. I'd suggest using full power loads, provided your gun can take it, like Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, or other brands that are similar. No holds barred stuff.

Ultimately a bullet's a bullet, and I'll carry what's most reliable in my gun.

+1 - If it doesn't go bang, there's not point.

 

[KMM696]

I guess I should start carrying the SW500 than for self defense, because apparently the .45 acp is a joke. I'll take your advise and just use it for squirrels

Yep - you need a no compromise self defense pistol, like a T/C Contender with a 10" 30-30 Win barrel.



You won't have a follow up shot, but if you're shooting 150gr factory loads, you won't want a follow up shot.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

Yep - you need a no compromise self defense pistol, like a T/C Contender with a 10" 30-30 Win barrel.



You won't have a follow up shot, but if you're shooting 150gr factory loads, you won't want a follow up shot.

I guess if a center of mass shot doesn't tear a person in two, it must not be enough for GSG

 

[Rob Boudrie]

And stop shooting it out of those dam Glocks.

Respectfully,
jkelly

1. Dillon 1050 w/swadger adjusted

2. Case Pro

 

[dwarven1]

Yep - you need a no compromise self defense pistol, like a T/C Contender with a 10" 30-30 Win barrel.



You won't have a follow up shot, but if you're shooting 150gr factory loads, you won't want a follow up shot.

Here ya go. 29 followup shots.

 

[lupis42]

Here ya go. 29 followup shots.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/romyp.jpg

But will they hit?

 

[M1911]

But will they hit?

Oh they'll hit all right. Something.

 

[Coyote33]

Tow truck drivers are ill equipped to understand why someone is injured or killed in a particular car vs another.

Tow truck drivers lack the knowledge to make informed decisions on the matter because they are not engineers who make their living understanding how the transmission of impact forces through a car's structure and restraints affects the occupants.

What you are proposing is akin to saying that we do not need astrophysicists to go to the moon, just point a rocket at it and we'll get there.

No.

Actually, I think they have a pretty good pulse for which cars come through OK in an accident, and which ones don't. This is an off the cuff test or poll of "street results", not an engineering exercise. The "why" doesn't matter in this case, just the end result.

 

[BillB]

I do. If they're bleeding from two holes instead of one, they'll lose blood faster, which will be one more factor in taking them out of the fight.


Look at how many rounds were fired vs. how many even hit the guys they were aiming at. It doesn't matter how good a caliber is if basic marksmanship isn't down pat.[/QUOTE]

I guess I should start carrying the SW500 than for self defense, because apparently the .45 acp is a joke. I'll take your advise and just use it for squirrels

W/ a (full power) 10mm you may shoot right through one person and into another. What's best for a 300lber isn't the same as a 125lb. weakling!
(most seem to be setting up for the 300lber)

I am sure there was a lot of 'suppressing fire', not really aimed to hit an assailant in Miami.


The .45 ACP was originally made as ball ammo....what would a 1911 fanatic rather be hit with, a .45 FMJ or a .40 Ranger-T? While the HP .45 & .40 are SO similar....the .357Sig & 10mm a little better (penetration).
Then again the .500 will do for the so called knock-down power....

 

[M1911]

W/ a (full power) 10mm you may shoot right through one person and into another.

Is that so? And what are you using to back up this assertion that 10mm is more likely to overpenetrate than other rounds?

 

[Scrivener]

If they're bleeding from two holes instead of one, they'll lose blood faster, which will be one more factor in taking them out of the fight..

An egregiously over-simplified generalization.

First, it is entirely possible to die from INTERNAL bleeding. That would require merely an entrance; no exit required.

Mafia executions are commonly done with a .22 at close range to the back of the head. The projectile ricochets inside the skull, death resulting. From ONE hole.

Similarly, SD ammo is designed NOT to completely penetrate, which is self-evident failure to achieve complete "energy dump." Rather, it's purpose is to maximize INTERNAL damage, making it physically impossible for the assailant to continue the attack. Again, ONE hole.

I, for one, want my attacker to go down NOW; not 8 hours later from from the belated effects of exsanguination from a trickling exit wound caused by a poor-performing projectile. Modern SD ammo design supports my thinking.

 

[BillB]

Is that so? And what are you using to back up this assertion that 10mm is more likely to overpenetrate than other rounds?

The original full power 10mm was made to be a semi-auto pistol magnum, not unlike the .357 wheel gun magnum.
These will easily go through smaller people....and a reason why most cities & towns didn't want LEO's using the .357, while the State Police used them because they are mostly out on the open highway.

In fact the FBI wanted something (w/ a HP) that will penetrate at least 13"....most peoples torso is not that thick, but it's useful on car doors etc (or that 300+lb guy).

Add to this that many (if not most) hollow points can full up from going through heavy clothing (winter time) and they act like a FMJ and could go through 2 or 3 people,

 

[dwarven1]

 

[EddieCoyle]

In fact the FBI wanted something (w/ a HP) that will penetrate at least 13"....most peoples torso is not that thick, but it's useful on car doors etc (or that 300+lb guy).

The 13" penetration requirement has nothing to do with barrier penetration and everything to do with making sure a bullet will go through an arm and still hit the good stuff.

A mistake for the pistols first chambered for it....again, remember the DELTA 1911.

Why do you bring this up? Far from being one of the first 10mm's, the Delta Elite was a relative latecomer, and is largely credited with saving the 10mm. It was also not a 'mistake'. The Delta Elite was (and is) a fine pistol.

Are you confusing it with the D&D Bren Ten? The Bren Ten failed not because it was a bad pistol, but because the company couldn't produce magazines for it and ended up going out of business.

The fact remains that the 10mm can be loaded to do anything the .40 S&W can do and them some.

 

[M1911]

The original full power 10mm was made to be a semi-auto pistol magnum, not unlike the .357 wheel gun magnum.
These will easily go through smaller people....and a reason why most cities & towns didn't want LEO's using the .357, while the State Police used them because they are mostly out on the open highway.

In fact the FBI wanted something (w/ a HP) that will penetrate at least 13"....most peoples torso is not that thick, but it's useful on car doors etc (or that 300+lb guy).

What you assert that the FBI may or may not have wanted does not, in any way, provide evidence to support your thesis, that 10mm rounds are more likely to overpenetrate than other pistol calibers.

How about providing some actual data to support your claim?

 

[WayneWong]

Force = Mass x velocity squared / 2

A penny dropped from the Empire State building that lands on your head is going to really screw up your day.


As far as the gun and ammunition you choose, as we say in paramedicine...Titrate to the desired effect.

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/wp-content/uploads/handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

Not a lot of differences from the .357 to the .45 in this example. The fps has a lot do with it. The bullet entering the gelatin causes pressure waves outside the path of the projectile. Obviously the type of bullet you choose is going to have different effects on the material that it enters.

 

[EddieCoyle]

A penny dropped from the Empire State building that lands on your head is going to really screw up your day.

It would hurt, but it wouldn't kill you. Mythbusters did a thing on it. A penny's terminal velocity was about 60 MPH.

 

[Scrivener]

The 13" penetration requirement has nothing to do with barrier penetration and everything to do with making sure a bullet will go through an arm and still hit the good stuff.

Because the one good shot in the Great Miami Shootout was with a 9mm, the bullet from which went through (IIRC) the right arm and stopped just short of the heart.

More a failure of bullet placement than bullet performance.

 

[wacky_doug]

Oh man. I am so sorry I opened this big f***ing can of worms.

Best response was post #4 from EC.

 

[Scrivener]

Oh man. I am so sorry I opened this big f***ing can of worms.

Don't ask the question if you can't hack the answer.

Or, as we say in The Village:

Questions are a burden to others.

Answers are a prison for one's self.

Be seeing you.......

 

[Exousia]

Just noticed your signature. Very clever.

Yes, I have a Sig Nature.

 

[GSG]

So, would you say to use hotter reloads instead of bland factory loads for defensive use? Is that a good idea? Or are you telling us the Double Tap is the one for you? Does this one stand out for some particular reason? Now I'm wondering what load they chose and why, and what the latest preferred "carry" (defense) load is these days. I always thought people leaned towards Winchester Rangers, Remington Golden Sabers, Hydra Shok, Silver Tip, Corbon, and now these. Gee, I haven't seen a "Which is the preferred carry round?" thread lately. Not knocking you, just wondering.

I currently carry DoubleTap in my defensive pistols. In the past I've carried Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber, Remington UMC, and others without hesitation. I like DoubleTap because it's incredibly fast, and because I have it. I'd actually prefer something like Winchester Ranger that has sealed primers (reliability is more important to me than fps in general), but I haven't been able to obtain it in large amounts recently with the ammo crisis, which is still in full swing down here.

So it's complicated for me. If DoubleTap used sealed primers, I'd never use anything else. But availability is also key with my ammo selection. If push came to shove I'd feel 100% comfortable using target FMJ in my defensive pistols, as millions of people have been successfully killed with FMJ rounds.

Although I think there's some merit to points made in "caliber wars," I think most of them are moot. There have been well documented one shot stops with just about every caliber, and well documented failure's to stop with just about every caliber. Find something reliable that you can shoot accurately, carry comfortably, and afford to practice with. More power is better, for sure, but more power typically requires a long gun; handguns are for convenience.

I guess I should start carrying the SW500 than for self defense, because apparently the .45 acp is a joke. I'll take your advise and just use it for squirrels

Did you see these videos on the interwebs?

I guess if a center of mass shot doesn't tear a person in two, it must not be enough for GSG

I've literally seen hundreds of videos of officer involved shootings, most often they're dashcam videos, but sometimes they're from other means.

The one I was referring to in particular was a police officer who saw a suspicious pickup at a truck stop (in Utah, IIRC). Unknown to him, the driver was a parolee with a ton of meth and a knife. Long story short, the parolee fought with the knife, and the cop drew and fired center of mass with a 5 inch barreled .45 ACP pistol. Aside from the gunshot there was absolutely no indication that he'd been shot. The officer had to re-holster his pistol and go to weapon retention techniques as they fistfought for minutes, with the officer taking the worst of it. The cop had no injuries before the fightfight started, but the guy with a .45 in his torso didn't even blink as he fought, yelled, and talked to the cop throughout the fight. He wasn't even visibly bleeding. This video is sometimes featured on Worlds Wildest Police Videos and other similar shows, and I'd look for it on YouTube or something, but the firewall here at work blocks pretty much everything but NES and the weather. I'll keep poking around though when I'm not at work, and I'll post a link just as soon as I can find one (assuming it exists online).

I also saw a gunfight on the TV show Under Fire where a Texas cop stopped some joyriding teenagers in a stolen pickup. The driver had a .45 pistol and shot one of the cops point blank, the bullet tore from his wrist to his elbow on his right arm. Aside from him dropping his pistol, his arm didn't get "picked up and thrown back" as you've asserted happens when people get shot with a .45 ACP.

My grandfather shot Chinese soldiers with a .45 caliber Tommy Gun on a hill outpost in the Korean War, and he said that they either dropped or ran (and that's after a full-auto burst of .45), but he never saw anyone get "picked up and thrown down."

I had the pleasure of talking to an 18 year old convicted felon while working security in low income housing who asked what caliber gun I carried, and then proudly took off his shirt and showed me that he'd survived multiple gunshot wounds, including a .22 to the right forearm (his comment was "I won't lie, that one hurt like a b*tch"), a .38 to the stomach, and two .45 wounds, one to the chest, and one to his shoulder blade, because after he got shot in the chest the first time with the .45, he turned and ran away and got shot in the back. I didn't think to ask, but based on his wounds it doesn't seem likely that he was "picked up and thrown back."

One of my family members is a Special Forces veteran (not the kind who tells stories in a gunstore, but the kind who doesn't tell stories for years afterwards) who has cold memories of shooting people with 230 grain .45 rounds who were unfazed.

But to counter that, I know yet another combat veteran who carries WWB 9mm as defense ammo, and when I asked him why, he said "9MM FMJ worked fine on everyone I've ever shot, why would I use anything else?"

I know someone who's father was working as a clerk in a stop and rob, and carried a .22 LR derringer in his rear pocket. An illegal immigrant robbed him with a knife and stabbed him in the stomach, so he contact shot the guy with a .22 LR, and he dropped dead on the spot.

I had a detailed conversation with a Mass. LEO who was involved in a shooting recently who was in a gunfight with an armed felon that was remarkably similar to the Peter Soulis incident. The cop shot this man 16 times center of mass with a .40 caliber pistol, fatally wounding him through the heart, lungs and liver, and the felon didn't stop. There was no blood, no confirmation of the hits, he just kept shooting back and fighting, while the cop had to reload under fire.

Jim Cirillo shot a guy who didn't stop after taking several shots from 12 guage 00 buckshot; the felon had 60 something GSW's to his body, and wasn't stopped until a cop shot him in the pelvis, which broke and took him out of the fight.

You can tell me all day that your .45 "picks people up and knocks them down, even when they're high." I hear crap like that in gunstores all the time, and it's not true.

I'm not sh***ing on your .45 ACP. I've never owned one, but I'd trust my life to one in a second if I did. I don't own one because I'm a Glock guy, and I don't really like the way Glock .45 frames fit my hand. What I'm saying is that all handguns have limited effect, and while a .45 is a good round, it's not always a showstopper.

First, it is entirely possible to die from INTERNAL bleeding. That would require merely an entrance; no exit required.

Obviously it is. But do the math, an entrance wound and internal bleeding will bleed less than an entrance wound, internal bleeding and an exit wound.

Mafia executions are commonly done with a .22 at close range to the back of the head. The projectile ricochets inside the skull, death resulting. From ONE hole.

This is only true if you watched My Blue Heaven.

Richie loved to use 22s because the bullets are small and they don't come out the other end like a 45, see, a 45 will blow a barn door out the back of your head and there's a lot of dry cleaning involved, but a 22 will just rattle around like Pac-Man until you're dead.

The only time the members of La Cosa Nostra have consistently used a .22 was when Roy DeMeo did.

Even when Michael Coppola hit Johnny Cokes, he used a silenced .22, but it was facing him head on, not pressed behind his ear, and the .22 didn't fire (those darn unreliable rimfires) so he shot him with a .38 instead.

The only gun that the "the Mafia" uses with any kind of regularity is the shotgun (or "the lupara"), simply because they're easy to come by, they're powerful enough and there's no ballistic evidence left by the projectiles like rifling. Like any other criminals, they use what they have, and like anyone who knows anything about shooting, they shoot 'til they stop.

I've never seen one coroners report or other documentation to show that a .22 has bounced around inside someone's head. It might happen, but I've never read anything about it.

I, for one, want my attacker to go down NOW; not 8 hours later from from the belated effects of exsanguination from a trickling exit wound caused by a poor-performing projectile. Modern SD ammo design supports my thinking.

I want my attacker to go down now too. But, although the majority of gunfights are 2-3 second affairs, some run on for hours. If bleeding him out is the only way to end it, bleeding him out is what I'll take.

How about providing some actual data to support your claim?

+1, bring it on out people.

Because the one good shot in the Great Miami Shootout was with a 9mm, the bullet from which went through (IIRC) the right arm and stopped just short of the heart.

More a failure of bullet placement than bullet performance.

Agreed. If they had more than one bullet on target, that extra centimeter that the 9mm failed to travel to the heart wouldn't have mattered.

 

[eisenhow]

Force = Mass x velocity squared / 2

Not trying to be a PITA but Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mass * velocity ^2

 

[Chrisg67]

who cares. that ballistics gel isn't a person.

the odds of being attacked by the incredible hulk are pretty slim.

the 160 pound punk that might jump you isn't going to take a couple rounds of .40 to the chest very well.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

I've literally seen hundreds of videos of officer involved shootings, most often they're dashcam videos, but sometimes they're from other means.

The one I was referring to in particular was a police officer who saw a suspicious pickup at a truck stop (in Utah, IIRC). Unknown to him, the driver was a parolee with a ton of meth and a knife. Long story short, the parolee fought with the knife, and the cop drew and fired center of mass with a 5 inch barreled .45 ACP pistol. Aside from the gunshot there was absolutely no indication that he'd been shot. The officer had to re-holster his pistol and go to weapon retention techniques as they fistfought for minutes, with the officer taking the worst of it. The cop had no injuries before the fightfight started, but the guy with a .45 in his torso didn't even blink as he fought, yelled, and talked to the cop throughout the fight. He wasn't even visibly bleeding. This video is sometimes featured on Worlds Wildest Police Videos and other similar shows, and I'd look for it on YouTube or something, but the firewall here at work blocks pretty much everything but NES and the weather. I'll keep poking around though when I'm not at work, and I'll post a link just as soon as I can find one (assuming it exists online).

I also saw a gunfight on the TV show Under Fire where a Texas cop stopped some joyriding teenagers in a stolen pickup. The driver had a .45 pistol and shot one of the cops point blank, the bullet tore from his wrist to his elbow on his right arm. Aside from him dropping his pistol, his arm didn't get "picked up and thrown back" as you've asserted happens when people get shot with a .45 ACP.

My grandfather shot Chinese soldiers with a .45 caliber Tommy Gun on a hill outpost in the Korean War, and he said that they either dropped or ran (and that's after a full-auto burst of .45), but he never saw anyone get "picked up and thrown down."
Jim Cirillo shot a guy who didn't stop after taking several shots from 12 guage 00 buckshot; the felon had 60 something GSW's to his body, and wasn't stopped until a cop shot him in the pelvis, which broke and took him out of the fight.

You can tell me all day that your .45 "picks people up and knocks them down, even when they're high." I hear crap like that in gunstores all the time, and it's not true.

I'm not sh***ing on your .45 ACP. I've never owned one, but I'd trust my life to one in a second if I did. I don't own one because I'm a Glock guy, and I don't really like the way Glock .45 frames fit my hand. What I'm saying is that all handguns have limited effect, and while a .45 is a good round, it's not always a showstopper.

Any links or sources? People can convince me using hard data, not so much what people just tell me. Nothing against you obviously, but I've heard too many people outright lie to convince people of things or skew data in their favor. I'm always open to new opinions or ideas as long as I got data to back them

 

[drgrant]

Any links or sources? People can convince me using hard data, not so much what people just tell me. Nothing against you obviously, but I've heard too many people outright lie to convince people of things or skew data in their favor. I'm always open to new opinions or ideas as long as I got data to back them

For whatever it is or isn't worth, What GSG says is right on the nose.

Spend some time on tacticalforums.com and pay attention to what DocGKR says... once you start reading his posts (and the methodology behind them) you'll really start looking at wound ballistics in a whole different way. All this crap about energy dump, etc, WRT humans, is just that, crap. The science present does not back it up. Only good shot placement, blood loss, mobility loss, or CNS hits really "count" in the absolute rawest sense.

The only thing that's not really well vetted out by experts on the topic are psychological or pain responses. This may never be possible because of the way people react to being shot. It's also hard to test due to ethical and practical realities- eg, you can't exactly set up a test jig and then shoot a guy in one shoulder with a .40 S+W and then hit him in the other shoulder with a .357 Sig and ask him which one hurt more. Further, even if you could do that, pain response and the like would likely be drastically different between people. Even within that person there are things like state of mind, adrenaline, etc, that affect response. (For example, someone shot after they have an adrenaline dump is probably going to respond WAY differently than a person who doesn't have a lot of it in their system yet. ) People hopped up on lots of drugs that suppress pain response, may not feel much pain at all. Our guys in Iraq and Astan talk about this all the time- Hajis hopped up on who knows what, taking a lot of shots of (whatever) to go down. Drugs can completely obliterate the psychological/physical pain component of any shooting scenario. It's also fair to consider this for self defense because a lot of one's likely attackers, are probably drug users. They're the most likely to attack you and are probably the most desperate. They're also the most likely to not give a shit if you point a gun at them, either.... so only real shots count- shots that either cause the BG to lose enough blood to cause them to lose function, shots that stop attack/mobility, or central nervous system hits- eg, spinal or brain hits.

You'll soon find out regardless that all this crap about energy dump, shotguns throwing people backwards, etc... is crap. There are certainly kinetic differences between handgun rounds in certain mediums- for example a .44 mag or a .45 ACP or some other caliber with a heavy bullet will move a bowling pin further, for sure... but bear in mind that even in that case the forces involved are not that dramatically different... it's just that the medium (plastic and wood) moves further with the bigger bullets because the dynamics between the bullet and a pin dictate that bigger, heavier bullets are less likely to leave the pin, causing greater energy transfer.

Humans or animal flesh is a whole different ballgame- it's an odd medium compared to wood, metal, or plastic. It has a lot of water and a lot of tough connective
tissue in it that do interesting things to bullets, and in between all that crap you have bones.

Hang a rump roast off a string on a target hanger, and hit it with a 9mm, then hit it with a .40, and then a .45 into it. You'll soon discover that there isn't a dramatic difference. (Things might get interesting with a large magnum caliber, like a .460 or a .500, though... but they're an order of magnitude or more powerful than a typical handgun caliber used for self defense. Even the 10mm Auto, which is pretty much the biggest semi caliber that's practical, is still way below those two!)

To put it in raw terms a lot of the stuff out there about handgun stopping power is junk science. A lot of it was simply made up to sell books and gain
notoriety, etc. Well, that, and to sell crappy ammunition (like magsafe, extreme shock, and other gimmick based ammo )

-Mike