Why all the hate for .40s&w?

[Mike-Mike]

I think you need to go re-read my post. I never said that .40 was a super hot load. I said there is no chance that someone is going to put it in a really old gun. Oh and your right there not reluctant about making hot 9mm loads, They just write +P+ all over it and alot of manufactures will void your warranty if you shoot it..lol

BZZZT! Try again!

The .40 S+W is an INTENTIONALLY DOWNLOADED cartridge. There are no "hot" loads for it... the hot loads are in 10mm Auto, the parent cartridge. It's not that it doesn't have some punt, but there literally is "nowhere to go" on the .40. .40 S+W is not a cartridge where you can really abuse the maximum and get away with it... least I wouldn't want
to.

Further, they're not that reluctant. Get some Win Ranger RA9TA or RA45T and then tell us how reluctant they are. Or better yet, DoubleTap.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

I think you need to go re-read my post. I never said that .40 was a super hot load. I said there is no chance that someone is going to put it in a really old gun.

While that's wonderful it doesn't mean it's hot ammo. Again, .40 S+W is
an intentionally downloaded cartridge. I'm not so sure why that makes it
"better" than 9mm or .45.... cause the crappy plinking ammo one buys is
"hotter?" in strictly relative terms? I'm not sure what kind of advantage
that presents.

ETA: Actually, one nice thing about 9mm and .45 is both cartridges have a fair amount of headroom for pressure excursions because of advancements in
the strength of the metals used in the barrels and the like... .40 S+W has almost NONE because of the design intent of the cartridge.

Oh and your right there not reluctant about making hot 9mm loads, They just write +P+ all over it and alot of manufactures will void your warranty if you shoot it..lol

How would they ever know you fired it? Really?

Further, Glock, HK and others don't "void the warranty"- some make a statement that using +P+ excessively will wear out the gun faster... but modern firearms can take a lot more than you would think. RA45T btw, doesn't exceed SAAMI specs for .45 ACP, and it still goes about 850 FPS out of my G30 SF, which is pretty amazing for a little 3.5 inch barrel. The "advances in propellant" apply to old calibers as much as new ones. as well as metallurgy in the guns themselves. Yeah, you probably wouldn't want to put Hirtenbirger 9mm through an old luger, but a Glock 17 will eat it all day long.


-Mike

 

[terraformer]

but modern firearms can take a lot more than you would think.

Well, all but the glock 22-24...

 

[jkelly]

Split times with a stock 9mm or 40 can be in the .20 second range at reasonable distances with a competent shooter -

Dam, and I was so happy with todays 2.00 failure drill with .31-.33 splits.

Respectfully,
jkelly

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

I carry a .40, and I also think that the "one shot stopping power" is BS. Simply put, someone will stop when they are dead. Real world, you die one of two ways; bleed out, or shut down the brain. Even catastrophic wounds take some time to bleed out-sometimes even 20 seconds is too long. A shot to the head will usually put someone down (failure drill, or, for those who knew it from a while ago, the Mozambique Method). So, logic would dictate that to stop someone immediately, you would puncture their squash. 9, .40, .38, .357, .45-I think all these would do. Hell, even a .22 would, with a good shot.
Everything I have read has largely debunked the one shot stop myth. Any of the big 3 will likely do what you need it to do.
Also, look at real world FBI & military shooting reports; lots of times, subjects are shot several times, without being aware of it. Ballistic shock, I am assuming, rarely comes in to play. If youre high on drugs, or adrenaline, your likely not going to immediately know what happened. Hence, again, the failure drills.

I'm not sure if you fully understand the definition of stopping power. Stopping power is not the lethality but merely the ability to incapacitate a target. Not to start another "45 vs 9" thread, but 9mm has a higher velocity and therefore has less ability to transfer energy into a target The .45 is a much slower round purposely efficiently transfer energy into the target. The invention of the .45 acp was designed to combat the Moro tribe in the Philippines because before every battle, they would use narcotics to pump themselves up.
The standard round at the time was ineffective because they would not notice one or several gunshot wounds until they were killed by them(exactly what you said above) The .45 acp however was designed because it would pick you up and throw you down, taking the fight out of the target, narcotics or not.
In a defensive situation, you will generally only get one or two shots that count. That's why I would take 8 .45 rounds over a drum of 9.
To each his own, but thats the basis of my decision.

 

[BillB]

The .40 is basically the (it's) equivalent length of the 9mm & 45ACP, that it should have been from the start.

They started w/ the 10mm and worked down, for the first time.
It would be like the .357 or .44 magnum being developed before the .38 or .44 special.

Again, saying the 9mm & 45ACP are fine cartridges and the .40 S&W is somehow a dog is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

The .40 is basically the (it's) equivalent length of the 9mm & 45ACP, that it should have been from the start.

They started w/ the 10mm and worked down, for the first time.
It would be like the .357 or .44 magnum being developed before the .38 or .44 special.

Again, saying the 9mm & 45ACP are fine cartridges and the .40 S&W is somehow a dog is beyond ridiculous.

Just trying to follow you're thinking, not saying you're right or wrong. Are you saying the .40 is good enough as far as stopping power?

 

[BillB]

I'm not sure if you fully understand the definition of stopping power. Stopping power is not the lethality but merely the ability to incapacitate a target. Not to start another "45 vs 9" thread, but 9mm has a higher velocity and therefore has less ability to transfer energy into a target The .45 is a much slower round purposely efficiently transfer energy into the target. The invention of the .45 acp was designed to combat the Moro tribe in the Philippines because before every battle, they would use narcotics to pump themselves up.
The standard round at the time was ineffective because they would not notice one or several gunshot wounds until they were killed by them(exactly what you said above) The .45 acp however was designed because it would pick you up and throw you down, taking the fight out of the target, narcotics or not.
In a defensive situation, you will generally only get one or two shots that count. That's why I would take 8 .45 rounds over a drum of 9.
To each his own, but thats the basis of my decision.

But your not taking into account modern bullet design.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

But your not taking into account modern bullet design.

Enlighten me.

 

[delgrifith]

I prefer 9 or .45 over .40. IMHO the 9 and .45 are alot easier to shoot, to me the .40 feels very "snappy" making follow up shots more difficult. Just my opinion and what works for me.

 

[BillB]

Just trying to follow you're thinking, not saying you're right or wrong. Are you saying the .40 is good enough as far as stopping power?

I am saying it is probably better than 9mm and about the same as 45ACP.

Then of course you do not want over penetration....

 

[BillB]

Enlighten me.

You were talking about the Moro's in the Philippines....they weren't even using HP then. Never mind Ranger T's.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

I am saying it is probably better than 9mm and about the same as 45ACP.

Then of course you do not want over penetration....

Yes to being better then 9mm, not the same as 45 acp. Penetration is apples and oranges, stopping power is the transfer of energy into a target, it will have less penetration ability than a high velocity round (9mm)

 

[dwarven1]

Isn't somebody developing a new 10mm right now? I swear I read it on here somewhere.

The EAA Witness is currently available in 10mm - we stock it at Horton's. Doesn't seem terribly popular, though... most gun shops I talk to are not interested in the Witness line at all.

According to this article(written in 2003) there are very few handgun cartridges suitable for self defense and nothing less than a .40 has the one shot stopping power that they deem necessary.
Take a look.....

This article is using a scale developed by an Army Ordinance office in 1910 to rate a bunch of rounds created in the '50s, '60s, '70s, etc. With no data about how it is calculated.

Ah... I was wondering how those values were calculated, myself.

 

[Realtor MA]

Here's an interesting link http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Cartridges.asp?NAV=3

On average muzzle energy of the .40 is higher than the 9mm. The .40 obviously makes a somewhat bigger hole.
The 9mm is easier to handle and you can cram more of them into your magazine.
If the argument is pure stopping power I think you have to give the nod to the .40
In the real world, when you factor in extra cartridges, easier recoil etc it's anybody's guess.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

Here's an interesting link http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Cartridges.asp?NAV=3

On average muzzle energy of the .40 is higher than the 9mm. The .40 obviously makes a somewhat bigger hole.
The 9mm is easier to handle and you can cram more of them into your magazine.
If the argument is pure stopping power I think you have to give the nod to the .40
In the real world, when you factor in extra cartridges, easier recoil etc it's anybody's guess.

Yea it all depends what people value as important in the situation

 

[drgrant]

The .40 is basically the (it's) equivalent length of the 9mm & 45ACP, that it should have been from the start.

Uhh, I don't think so. The .45 is significantly larger/longer than both. That's why .45 ACP and 9/.40 handguns almost never share the same frames outside of some single stacks. .45 is more comparable to 10mm Auto in OAL. (It's actually almost identical). That's why the G20 and G21 and G29/G30 basically share frames.

Again, saying the 9mm & 45ACP are fine cartridges and the .40 S&W is somehow a dog is beyond ridiculous.

It's a decent cartridge but I think what people are getting at is it's not WAY better than 9mm or .45 is. They're all in the same relatively small ballpark, more or less.

I used to have several .40 S+W handguns, and I'll probably get another one someday, probably another P229. That said, I'm in no hurry to run out
and do it. I also used .40 S+W as pretty much a de-facto carry caliber for years (The HK USPc .40 and P2000 .40 I had were the longest running carry guns I owned, time wise) . Now I carry a G30SF (.45 ACP) 99% of the time because I shoot it way better than I shot any of the .40s. (That, and I already reload .45 in volume, so obtaining practice ammo is easy!)

I'd like to think I'm relatively not so biased with the .40, having owned several of them (at one point I had 5 handguns chambered in it). It's not a bad caliber, but there are perfectly valid reasons people piss on it all the time, especially if they've ever used a 10mm Auto. The origins of the .40 S+W are more tragic than anything else. It was a cartridge promoted via administrative fiat, and not true technical merit. That's why people dislike it, more out of spite than anything else. I'm done.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Exactly, who cares if the .40 was developed backwards....they made a mistake w/ the 10mm and fixed it.

Sorry, couldn't resist... but that statement is so ignorant that it's nauseating.

-Mike

 

[BillB]

Uhh, I don't think so. The .45 is significantly larger/longer than both. That's why .45 ACP and 9/.40 handguns almost never share the same frames outside of some single stacks. .45 is more comparable to 10mm Auto in OAL. (It's actually almost identical). That's why the G20 and G21 and G29/G30 basically share frames.

-Mike

What I was meaning is that the .40 is about the right length compared to the 9mm & 45ACP....not that it is the same OAL.

While the 10mm is more like a magnum....(hurts my ears too much, lol)
A mistake for the pistols first chambered for it....again, remember the DELTA 1911.

 

[dwarven1]

Now I carry a G30SF (.45 ACP) 99% of the time because I shoot it way better than I shot any of the .40s.

The best reason to carry a particular gun or caliber!!

A mistake for the pistols first chambered for it....again, remember the DELTA 1911.

Yeah, it was such a mistake that Colt is making it again. Ya know, Bill, when you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is stop digging!

 

[Exousia]

Ironic isn't it? The 40 was created because the 10mm had too much recoil, and yet the 40 is still a lot to handle.

I'm a 9mm kind of guy but I enjoy shooting a 10mm more than any .40 that I have shot. The snap of the .40 makes it less fun to shoot.

 

[MassMark]

I'd like to think I'm relatively not so biased with the .40, having owned several of them (at one point I had 5 handguns chambered in it). It's not a bad caliber, but there are perfectly valid reasons people piss on it all the time, especially if they've ever used a 10mm Auto. The origins of the .40 S+W are more tragic than anything else. It was a cartridge promoted via administrative fiat, and not true technical merit. That's why people dislike it, more out of spite than anything else. I'm done.

-Mike

I'd like to think I'm relatively not biased with my dislike of the .40 S&W either, having owned one and shot it like I owned 5... As I said before, I bought my Glock22 on a spur of the moment whim and as if it was meant to be, got a stunning deal on 10,000 rounds of .40 S&W ammunition in 2k increments. Couple that with the myriad of carry rounds and plinking ammo I tried and then a rebuild and I have some time with this cartridge.

I tried in vain to both love the gun and the cartridge - I never really did either. On one hand, the .40 felt flat. I didn't feel invested - absorbed in shooting it. It was boring. On the other, it felt like too much was going on at the muzzle. Compared to other handguns I owned, (.45ACP, 9mm, .380), follow-up shots were very inconsistent. Could have been me, the gun, the cartridge, or a combination. Whatever it was, the Glock22 reached it's full potential for me the day I got it back from Glock, (just excellent by the way) and dropped a .357 Sig barrel in it. To me, the .357 Sig is everything the .40 S&W should be. Powerful, flat shooting, crisp, accurate. I went from frustrating groups at defensive distance, to tight, repeatable groups and busting clay pigeons at 100-yards. It became like a rifle-gun to me...Still, the .45ACP has never left my zone and after a long absence, I have one borrowed Sig220, (you're the bestest Don) and my very own HK USP45. The world just seems right and the .40 S&W, a distant memory. Kind of like a girl you dated that wasn't all that...

I'll not bore you further with waxing poetic about the 9mm....I love that one as well.

 

[Supermoto]

All handgun rounds are weak and they all can be shot with the same speed and accurate. So who really cares what you carry.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

All handgun rounds are weak and they all can be shot with the same speed and accurate. So who really cares what you carry.

Because if someone jumps you, you want to be assured you did your homework beforehand to give you the best odds of getting out alive.

 

[terraformer]

All handgun rounds are weak and they all can be shot with the same speed and accurate. So who really cares what you carry.

Not everyone carries a ported 5+" barrel race gun with 16 mags on their belt and a fancy red dot sight...

 

[lupis42]

While the 10mm is more like a magnum....(hurts my ears too much, lol)
A mistake for the pistols first chambered for it....again, remember the DELTA 1911.

The mistake was made by the pistol designers, not the cartridge designers.

 

[Supermoto]

Because if someone jumps you, you want to be assured you did your homework beforehand to give you the best odds of getting out alive.

none of that matters if you haven't done your homework on getting rounds on target.

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

none of that matters if you haven't done your homework on getting rounds on target.

Anyone who can't get rounds on target shouldn't be concerned with any of this discussion

 

[Scrivener]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillB:

The .40 is basically the (it's) equivalent length of the 9mm & 45ACP, that it should have been from the start.

Uhh, I don't think so. The .45 is significantly larger/longer than both. That's why .45 ACP and 9/.40 handguns almost never share the same frames outside of some single stacks.

Do tell. Ever been to a USPSA-type match?

Double-stack 1911's in .40 S&W RULE the Limited Division. Any other design is almost an aberration there.

That said, I do "long-load" my cartridges; about 1.200 COAL.

 

[drgrant]

Do tell. Ever been to a USPSA-type match?

Double-stack 1911's in .40 S&W RULE the Limited Division. Any other design is almost an aberration there.

Yes, I forgot about STI/SVI/Para Widebodies.... and Limited/L10.. etc.

-Mike