Why all the hate for .40s&w?

[drgrant]

The whole one shot stop thing is a bunch of crap, junk science, widely debunked by anyone in the wound ballistics community. (eg, made up of people that study
dead people shot by handguns and rifles, and how they died, etc... as well as those who dealt with people injured by firearms on a regular basis. )

One could run a good study on handgun stopping power, but anything I've seen to date that involves handgun cartridges is hardly scientific... and there are a lot of huge gaps in data, too. The variables involved aren't tracked very well at all. (For example, even things like fat perps vs skinny perps aren't accounted for, whether or not the perp had drugs in their system, etc.. ) The data out there also doesn't account for things like psychological vs physical damage causing the stop. All targets are not equal in these regards, which makes analysis very complex. The problem is data collection- you'd have to have LEOs and MEs fill out a survey for every dead perp to start accurately modeling things. Nobody has done this yet to my knowledge.

This is why ballistic testing of handgun cartridges is often reduced to simple things- like shooting a block of calibrated balgel with intermediate barriers in front of it. It's hard to dispute things like the distance traveled into the block, the expansion and retained weight of the bullet, etc. The thing people don't like about this is most handgun calibers end up in the same realm from 9mm through .45. .357 Sig and 10mm make "interesting" things happen to the test fixtures once in awhile, but 9, .40, and .45 are close enough for it to be somewhat of a wash. (Look at Terraformer's balgel pic above... ) There is a huge advantage with .357 Sig for intermediate barrier penetration, but that's another topic altogether, and isn't necessarily linked to wound ballistics. (EG, good bonded core .357 Sig punches through auto glass with minimal deviation in trajectory; other handgun calibers have "issues" with auto glass, especially windshields. )

-Mike

 

[Coyote33]

The whole one shot stop thing is a bunch of crap, junk science, widely debunked by anyone in the wound ballistics community. (eg, made up of people that study
dead people shot by handguns and rifles, and how they died, etc... as well as those who dealt with people injured by firearms on a regular basis. ) ...

It would be interesting to see what coroners carry. Kind of like what tow truck drivers would recommend for a safe vehicle.

 

[strangenh]

It would be interesting to see what coroners carry. Kind of like what tow truck drivers would recommend for a safe vehicle.

An FFL I know's buddy is a ME near Chicago who goes on and on about Glaser's blue safety slugs. Because sometimes people take cover or wear heavy leather coats, I wouldn't necessarily follow that example. Remember, the coroners only see what comes in dead. Since .22LR kills an awful lot of people . . .

I'd rather know what trauma surgeons won't carry.

 

[lupis42]

According to this article(written in 2003) there are very few handgun cartridges suitable for self defense and nothing less than a .40 has the one shot stopping power that they deem necessary.
Take a look.....
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/849728/posts

This article is using a scale developed by an Army Ordinance office in 1910 to rate a bunch of rounds created in the '50s, '60s, '70s, etc. With no data about how it is calculated.

 

[Realtor MA]

This article is using a scale developed by an Army Ordinance office in 1910 to rate a bunch of rounds created in the '50s, '60s, '70s, etc. With no data about how it is calculated.

Just putting it out there for folks to see. Thought it was interesting. They don't mention muzzle velocities or +p type ammo so it does leave a lot to the imagination.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Recoil management and double tap capability can distort in the street one shop stop statistics. Someone shooting a 9 or a 40 may be able to double tap a subject who would meet the criteria for a one shot stop absent the second shot, whereas someone with harder recoiling gun might find the subject down before getting on target for the second shot. These won't count as one-shot stops, even though they would have been if the second round was not administered. Split times with a stock 9mm or 40 can be in the .20 second range at reasonable distances with a competent shooter - something that's probably not going to happen with a 357 unless your first name is Jerry.

 

[oldsoldier29]

I carry a .40, and I also think that the "one shot stopping power" is BS. Simply put, someone will stop when they are dead. Real world, you die one of two ways; bleed out, or shut down the brain. Even catastrophic wounds take some time to bleed out-sometimes even 20 seconds is too long. A shot to the head will usually put someone down (failure drill, or, for those who knew it from a while ago, the Mozambique Method). So, logic would dictate that to stop someone immediately, you would puncture their squash. 9, .40, .38, .357, .45-I think all these would do. Hell, even a .22 would, with a good shot.
Everything I have read has largely debunked the one shot stop myth. Any of the big 3 will likely do what you need it to do.
Also, look at real world FBI & military shooting reports; lots of times, subjects are shot several times, without being aware of it. Ballistic shock, I am assuming, rarely comes in to play. If youre high on drugs, or adrenaline, your likely not going to immediately know what happened. Hence, again, the failure drills.

 

[ochmude]

We were actually encouraged to engage the pelvis in failure to stop drills. The procedure was 2 shots center mass and one shot at either the t box or pelvis, your choice. T box would result in CNS shutdown. Pelvis would result in a "mobility stop", and additionally there was mention of the tendency of the pelvic bone to funnel rounds toward the spine. We were encourage to go for the pelvis because it's a b--ch to get rounds into the t box consistently, especially on movers. This has nothing at all to do with the "one shot stop" crap. Just sharing info people might find interesting.

Here is what appears to be the exact target we trained on. I can't be sure, because the site is blocked for me currently and I can only see a small thumbnail via google.

 

[BillB]

I haven't had any problems shooting Doubletapp's stuff with my Glock, and it's very light. Of course, if the gun is designed badly and built badly, it doesn't matter how big or heavy it is.

Yes, Glock built a larger pistol for the 10mm....but who's using a 'Delta' 1911?

 

[BillB]

According to modern wound ballistics research (Dr. Gary K Roberts et. al.) that is simply not so.

There is hardly a measurable difference in actual fight stopping performance between non-magnum handgun calibers.

I will happily take an extra three to five rounds in the magazine with a 9 x 19 over the extra .045" diameter and the extra 56 grains (.128 ounces) of projectile weight that the typical .40 S&W offers.

We have all seen the jell photos (& many other tests)....the 9mm does not come close to the .357, .40, .45.
And again, think of all those dumb cops who use the .40 S&W (like Kel Tec P-11's for backup/off-duty).

 

[drgrant]

We have all seen the jell photos (& many other tests)....the 9mm does not come close to the .357, .40, .45.

Did you bother to look at the pic posted earlier in this thread? It directly contradicts that statement.

And again, think of all those dumb cops who use the .40 S&W (like Kel Tec P-11's for backup/off-duty).

"What the police use" is hardly relevant. Caliber selection by PDs is based on a variety of factors, terminal wound ballistics is only one of many factors.

BTW, the P11 is a 9mm.

-Mike

 

[BillB]

Not to pile on, but I find the opposite to be true.

Most people can't double-tripple tap nearly as fast w/ a .45ACP as they can w/ a .40 S&W....and most of the guns made for .45ACP have handles too large for many/most hands.
Even Ermy preferred the Glock 9mm to a 1911 .45 on his TV show!

 

[BillB]

.45 or nothing. I refuse to own anything in 40 because there's no reason to..it's just a compromise between the 9 and 45 and loses with both carry count and stopping power.

Everything is a "compromise"....the "reason"s are less recoil, more rounds & better (modern) bullet design/technology.

 

[lupis42]

Most people can't double-tripple tap nearly as fast w/ a .45ACP as they can w/ a .40 S&W....and most of the guns made for .45ACP have handles too large for many/most hands.
Even Ermy preferred the Glock 9mm to a 1911 .45 on his TV show!

Ermy liked the Full Auto Glock 18. I imagine I would as well, were it practical to own one as a carry gun.

Since 1911 is this country's most popular .45, and most 1911s are single stack, they tend to have grips that are smaller than the grips on double stack guns such as 9mm, and .40s.

Yes, Glock built a larger pistol for the 10mm....but who's using a 'Delta' 1911?

Given the aforesaid poor design decisions, not many people. I've not heard much complaining about reliability in the 1006 or the Kimber Eclipse in 10mm though.

 

[BillB]

Did you bother to look at the pic posted earlier in this thread? It directly contradicts that statement.



"What the police use" is hardly relevant. Caliber selection by PDs is based on a variety of factors, terminal wound ballistics is only one of many factors.

BTW, the P11 is a 9mm.

-Mike

Nope, but I have seen many different tests of these calibers....denim, water bottle, jell, pork carcass, expansion tests. The .357, .40, .45 are usually quite similar....and the 9mm slightly lacking.

What cracks me up are those that say the 9mm & .45 are viable rounds....but the .40 is useless....LOL. Or that the .40 has compromises, but the others (somehow) don't.

p.s. Yes we know the P-11 is 9mm, I just sold mine here!

 

[lupis42]

Everything is a "compromise"....the "reason"s are less recoil, more rounds & better (modern) bullet design/technology.

Everything is a compromise. Since each person puts different values on each of the factors being compromised (recoil, penetration, capacity, range, accuracy, cost, platform versatility, etc), trying to claim that any particular compromise is "the best self defense cartridge available" seems silly. It might best for what you need, but that doesn't make it appropriate for what I need, or EC needs, etc.

 

[BillB]

Ermy liked the Full Auto Glock 18. I imagine I would as well, were it practical to own one as a carry gun.

Since 1911 is this country's most popular .45, and most 1911s are single stack, they tend to have grips that are smaller than the grips on double stack guns such as 9mm, and .40s.



Given the aforesaid poor design decisions, not many people. I've not heard much complaining about reliability in the 1006 or the Kimber Eclipse in 10mm though.

Nope, Ermy liked the semi-Glock too....even he was amazed.

1911....compromise....low round count. (I used to own one)
Not to mention walking around locked n' cocked....or jack the slide when you go to use it.

Yup, now where in Kimber territory....not viable for many/most. And think of the double-tap time w/ that 10mm kick?

 

[lupis42]

What cracks me up are those that say the 9mm & .45 are viable rounds....but the .40 is useless....LOL. Or that the .40 has compromises, but the others (somehow) don't.

Well, depending on who you ask, the 5.7 FN has been said to make no compromises, thanks to it's unique ability to travel for miles, pass through heavy steel plates, and zig-zag through the target looking for vital organs. <sarcasm>

 

[lupis42]

Nope, Ermy liked the semi-Glock too....even he was amazed.

Which show?

1911....compromise....low round count. (I used to own one)
Not to mention walking around locked n' cocked....or jack the slide when you go to use it.

I'm not saying it's not a compromise. Just that smaller grip size is usually a reason people go to .45 1911s.

Yup, now where in Kimber territory....not viable for many/most. And think of the double-tap time w/ that 10mm kick?

Double tap time with 10mm is no worse than with .40 for me. And I can't afford the Kimber yet either, much as I might want one, which is why I own the Glock. The 1006 isn't too pricy either, IIRC, but I wanted the higher cap.

 

[BillB]

Everything is a compromise. Since each person puts different values on each of the factors being compromised (recoil, penetration, capacity, range, accuracy, cost, platform versatility, etc), trying to claim that any particular compromise is "the best self defense cartridge available" seems silly. It might best for what you need, but that doesn't make it appropriate for what I need, or EC needs, etc.

I was speaking of the vast majority of average people.

Sure, there are some that can handle the 10mm, while others don't like the kick of a 9mm poly gun.

 

[BillB]

Which show?

Same show (I think you talking about)....he really liked the Glock, and shot it better/faster than the 1911.

 

[lupis42]

I was speaking of the vast majority of average people.

Sure, there are some that can handle the 10mm, while others don't like the kick of a 9mm poly gun.

I'm always wary of people who claim to speak for a majority of others. I only speak for me, and those known to me.

Anyway, like I said, it's all about what compromise works for them. I just take issue with the claim that any one caliber is "the best self defense cartridge available".

 

[lupis42]

Some show (I think you talking about)....he really liked the Glock, and shot it better/faster than the 1911.

On Lock & Load, he shot the 9mm M9 faster and more accurately than the .45, but he didn't seem too happy with it.

 

[BillB]

I'm always wary of people who claim to speak for a majority of others. I only speak for me, and those known to me.

Anyway, like I said, it's all about what compromise works for them. I just take issue with the claim that any one caliber is "the best self defense cartridge available".

Talk to & read what people say and you can come to an (obvious) conclusion.

Yes, many feel the .40 is the best compromise between a 9mm & 45ACP. The .357 Sig may be even better?
My original statement was tougue-in-cheek....

BTW, the Worcester PD has adopted the M&P in .45....a grip too big to be comfortable for me (a guy w/ average sized hands).
Yet the Chief there states that he wants the department to be gender friendly....go figure?
(not to mention Worcester is broke, and they bought 400 'unneeded' new
guns)

 

[BillB]

On Lock & Load, he shot the 9mm M9 faster and more accurately than the .45, but he didn't seem too happy with it.

Watch the show again....he was kind of disappointed that the 1911 didn't shoot as well. But liked the Glock in the end....

 

[terraformer]

Most people can't double-tripple tap nearly as fast w/ a .45ACP as they can w/ a .40 S&W....and most of the guns made for .45ACP have handles too large for many/most hands.
Even Ermy preferred the Glock 9mm to a 1911 .45 on his TV show!

I could tap dance while triple tapping with a P22. That doesn't mean I would carry one or use it in a defensive situation....

 

[Mike-Mike]

The .40 was developed backwards.

So was the .223. They stuck John Browning's 30-06 in the shrinking machine and to make the .50 BMG they put it in the stretcher.

 

[BillB]

Exactly, who cares if the .40 was developed backwards....they made a mistake w/ the 10mm and fixed it.

 

[Mike-Mike]

This is why I like .40 -

With today's break throughs in propellant technology Ammo company's are reluctant to load 9mm or .45 acp too hot. The 9mm was invented in 1902. The .45 acp in 1904. When Remington makes a .40 cal load they know that nobody is going to put it in a really old gun.

 

[drgrant]

This is why I like .40 -

With today's break throughs in propellant technology Ammo company's are reluctant to load 9mm or .45 acp too hot. The 9mm was invented in 1902. The .45 acp in 1904. When Remington makes a .40 cal load they know that nobody is going to put it in a really old gun.

BZZZT! Try again!

The .40 S+W is an INTENTIONALLY DOWNLOADED cartridge. There are no "hot" loads for it... the hot loads are in 10mm Auto, the parent cartridge. It's not that it doesn't have some punt, but there literally is "nowhere to go" on the .40. .40 S+W is not a cartridge where you can really abuse the maximum and get away with it... least I wouldn't want
to.

Further, they're not that reluctant. Get some Win Ranger RA9TA or RA45T and then tell us how reluctant they are. Or better yet, DoubleTap.

-Mike