Why all the hate for .40s&w?

The 40s+w was my first handgun caliber and i was surprisingly good with it for a newb at the time. I haven't been shooting it much lately as I prefer shooting my long guns over my pistols but I don't see myself gravitating to another caliber anytime soon. It's what I am used to and if I need it to I am sure it will get the job done if I ever use it to defend myself or my family. One could point out an inadequecy in virtually any caliber so to say one caliber is better than another is just favoritism in my opinion.
 
drumenigma said:
One could point out an inadequecy in virtually any caliber so to say one caliber is better than another is just favoritism in my opinion.
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You just have to end the sentence with "for xxxx". One caliber is often clearly superior to another for a given application. For example:
".50 BMG is clearly superior to 5.56 for shooting at armored vehicles."
Or:
".22 LR is clearly superior to .50 AE for plinking on a budget."
Or, of course:
".40 Short&Weak is clearly superior to 10mm for small children and pansies with small and weak hands."
 
Can you elaborate a bit on that? Are you saying that no firearms have been designed specifically to fire the .40, only adapted from other calibers to shoot it?
 
Timber said:
it's a compromise round. something that allegedly almost delivers the ballistic shock of the 9mm, but carries the weight of the 10mm /45 cal. it's the bastard child of a bunch of nancy limp wristed SS agents who never actually fire their weapons in the line of duty.

personal opinion is that as a home owner / personal defense caliber it's fine. but if you actually shoot for a living, or make a hobby of it, then it sucks.

glock, hk, sw, etc., never put any R&D into designing a real .40 pistol. they just changed tolerances on barrels, slides, etc., to accomodate for a gov't demand.
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Gotcha. Good point, never thought of it that way.
 
See, now I have to agree with EC. The .40S&W development went the wrong direction, showing some definite character problems in its inventors. There's always a weaker round, but it's real work to make a more powerful one that'll actually shoot straight.

But thankfully, after a couple dozen beers and shots of Old Weller, some dudes at Sig said, "Ok, ok, so it's a wimpy 10mm short. What if we neck it down, jack up the pressure and crank out a .357mag using something like half the brass?" And the other guy said, "Yeee haw! Here, hold my drink while I give that a try!" He recovered after reconstructive surgery, and the .357Sig came out, showing performance... roughly the same as hot 9mm and .40S&W. But the thinking went the right direction, dangnambit! Thems were men!

Then some dudes at Dillon were hanging out one afternoon, huffing ether over a blowtorch, and came up with the idea to do the same thing to a full-on 10mm auto, and the 9x25 Dillon was born. Yeee haw! [smile]
 
strangenh said:
See, now I have to agree with EC. The .40S&W development went the wrong direction, showing some definite character problems in its inventors. There's always a weaker round, but it's real work to make a more powerful one that'll actually shoot straight.

But thankfully, after a couple dozen beers and shots of Old Weller, some dudes at Sig said, "Ok, ok, so it's a wimpy 10mm short. What if we neck it down, jack up the pressure and crank out a .357mag using something like half the brass?" And the other guy said, "Yeee haw! Here, hold my drink while I give that a try!" He recovered after reconstructive surgery, and the .357Sig came out, showing performance... roughly the same as hot 9mm and .40S&W. But the thinking went the right direction, dangnambit! Thems were men!

Then some dudes at Dillon were hanging out one afternoon, huffing ether over a blowtorch, and came up with the idea to do the same thing to a full-on 10mm auto, and the 9x25 Dillon was born. Yeee haw! [smile]
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If the 357 SIG produces "roughly the same ballistics as a hot 9mm" why bother with it? The 9mm is easier to manufacture and will give you more rounds in the mag.

I don't believe the 9x25 Dillon went anywhere. I heard of problems at its inception and have heard nothing about it in many years.
 
Gammon said:
If the 357 SIG produces "roughly the same ballistics as a hot 9mm" why bother with it? The 9mm is easier to manufacture and will give you more rounds in the mag.

I don't believe the 9x25 Dillon went anywhere. I heard of problems at its inception and have heard nothing about it in many years.
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Geeze, you can take the laugh right out of a hyena, cantcha? [wink]

Sure, and there's 357Sig haters out there, too. Plenty of rounds exist that have moderate practical use and are for sheer ballistic joy (most of EC's collection, I think), but the 357Sig was developed to try to replicate something that was considered superior in the field (the .357mag 125gr), even if the gelatin said different. The terminal ballistics of the 357Sig look a lot like a hot 9mm or 40S&W because that's what the FBI protocol that every manuf looks to calls for in terms of minimum penetration and expansion, and companies also try to avoid overpenetration, so you get pretty similar-looking numbers. But the 357Sig does seem to shine in barrier penetration, consistency, reliability, and post-barrier performance and is a very good expander.

The Dillon round cracked frames and supposedly gave shooters tendinitis - I am sure EC will have something funny to say about that. [smile]

But that strays from the point, which is that great guys got together with some booze and RAMPED UP cartridges, just like they're supposed to do.
 
Timber said:
glock, hk, sw, etc., never put any R&D into designing a real .40 pistol. they just changed tolerances on barrels, slides, etc., to accomodate for a gov't demand.
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This isn't quite true. The HK USP was originally designed around .40 S+W. Same thing with the Sig P229. These were both originally -strictly- .40 S+W platforms from the ground up. The other chamberings based off those frames came out later.

Glock, chose a far more chinsy route, of course. [laugh]


-Mike
 
Timber said:
it's a compromise round.
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All rounds are compromises, you can't have a large caliber, fast low recoil, high capacity, small frame gun

Timber said:
personal opinion is that as a home owner / personal defense caliber it's fine. but if you actually shoot for a living, or make a hobby of it, then it sucks.
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What specifically sucks about it if you shoot for a living or a hobby?
 
strangenh said:
Geeze, you can take the laugh right out of a hyena, cantcha? [wink]

Sure, and there's 357Sig haters out there, too. Plenty of rounds exist that have moderate practical use and are for sheer ballistic joy (most of EC's collection, I think), but the 357Sig was developed to try to replicate something that was considered superior in the field (the .357mag 125gr), even if the gelatin said different. The terminal ballistics of the 357Sig look a lot like a hot 9mm or 40S&W because that's what the FBI protocol that every manuf looks to calls for in terms of minimum penetration and expansion, and companies also try to avoid overpenetration, so you get pretty similar-looking numbers. But the 357Sig does seem to shine in barrier penetration, consistency, reliability, and post-barrier performance and is a very good expander.

The Dillon round cracked frames and supposedly gave shooters tendinitis - I am sure EC will have something funny to say about that. [smile]

But that strays from the point, which is that great guys got together with some booze and RAMPED UP cartridges, just like they're supposed to do.
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I'm not a 357 SIG "hater", I just don't see any need for it. If you can develop the same ballistics using a 9mm case, you are ahead of the game. A stronger case which will allow you to load more rounds in the mag. There are several rounds on the market which have the sole purpose of selling more guns. The 357 SIG and the 45 GAP are prime examples.

"RAMPING UP" cartridges is not necessarily the best thing to do. Look what has happened to the 10mm. A powerful (perhaps too powerful) cartridge that got a lot of press when it was introduced, but is all but forgotten today. People found out the hard way that the extraordinary ballistics of this round (200 gr bullet at 1200 fps) were too hard on the shooter and the gun.

Defensive cartridges must be a balance of power and controllability. Excessive power makes follow up shots extremely difficult and also makes training a real chore.
 
Speer's data for their Gold Dot ammo lists a standard 9mm 124gr load at 1150, a 9mm +P 124gr at 1220 at the muzzle and a 125gr 357Sig load at 1350. Misses equaling their 357mag load by 100fps, but certainly headed that way. Not a big enough difference to sell all the 9mms and switch. I do like shooting 357 Sig better than 40S&W, at least in the G27 and Sig 239. I had carried the G27 in 40 for a couple years, and then bought a 357 Sig barrel for it. Liked it, ran a bunch of 357Sig through it, and when I bought the 239 ordered the 357 for it, too. Still like shooting that, once the factory grips were gone.

The real reason I dislike the 40 S&W is that when I'm throwing mixed range brass in the tumbler for the first quick cleaning, the 40 brass gets stuck in a 45 case, and then gets a 9mm stuck in it, creating a tower of uncleaned cases filled with media, which usually ends up all over the bench while I'm sorting. For whatever reason, 3 cartridges stuck together annoys me where 2 doesn't.


Yes, I'm aware how irrational that is.......[smile]
 
Timber said:
it's a compromise round. something that allegedly almost delivers the ballistic shock of the 9mm, but carries the weight of the 10mm /45 cal. it's the bastard child of a bunch of nancy limp wristed SS agents who never actually fire their weapons in the line of duty.

personal opinion is that as a home owner / personal defense caliber it's fine. but if you actually shoot for a living, or make a hobby of it, then it sucks.

glock, hk, sw, etc., never put any R&D into designing a real .40 pistol. they just changed tolerances on barrels, slides, etc., to accomodate for a gov't demand.
Click to expand...

I like your new avatar. It is pleasing to me. [smile]
 
drgrant said:
This isn't quite true. The HK USP was originally designed around .40 S+W. Same thing with the Sig P229. These were both originally -strictly- .40 S+W platforms from the ground up. The other chamberings based off those frames came out later.

Glock, chose a far more chinsy route, of course. [laugh]


-Mike
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The P229 was a P228 that got a redesign to handle the .40SW/.357SIG chamber pressures. The guns are nearly identical, differing in that the P228 slides were stamped and the P229 slide is milled.
 
All I know is the .357 Sig made my Glock22 come alive. It went from pistol-like to rifle-like with the switch of a barrel. If I won the lottery, I'd start an ammo factory and crank out nothing but .357 Sig, 38 Super, 10mm and .45ACP and flood the market with high-quality affordable fodder, (even at a loss if I had to)...Would be nice to see the 38 Super and 10mm resurrected especially and the .357Sig and .45ACP as affordable as 9mm...My bet is, you'd see a lot of .40 S&W and 9mm's for sale...
 
pdm said:
The P229 was a P228 that got a redesign to handle the .40SW/.357SIG chamber pressures. The guns are nearly identical, differing in that the P228 slides were stamped and the P229 slide is milled.
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Yes, but it's worth mentioning that the frames are not identical. The P229 .40/.357 has it's own frame. It takes a magazine that is a physically different size.

The "idea" is the same, but the fact of the matter is that the P229 .40/.357 is it's own animal. This can't be said of the P226 even.

-Mike
 
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Just read EC's website. Great stuff.

So for the sake of argument I'll concede that the 10mm is better than the .40 S&W. and the .40 S&W is no more than a wussified 10mm. The problem is, how many guns come in 10mm these days? Not very many....

So - given that the 10mm is basically extinct, which is better - the 9mm or the .40 S&W? It seems to me that given these two choices the .40 is the way to go - you can get low-recoil 135 grain bullets that "feel" a lot like a 9mm or you can go all the way up to 180 grain or even higher.

I guess the other option would be .357SIG, which I like A LOT but is also much less widely available. (But still more available than the 10mm.)

Personally I'll pass on the 9mm for anything other than a compact CCW or back-up gun. EC's PPS in 9mm is pretty damn sweet, but not really something that I'd want to take to war as a primary weapon. Same with the M9 / Beretta 92FS - I love shooting them but I don't think those little 115 grain bullets have enough killing power.

Of course there's always the tried and true .45ACP. I wouldn't think twice about bringing a 1911 to war....
 
MassMark said:
All I know is the .357 Sig made my Glock22 come alive. It went from pistol-like to rifle-like with the switch of a barrel. If I won the lottery, I'd start an ammo factory and crank out nothing but .357 Sig, 38 Super, 10mm and .45ACP and flood the market with high-quality affordable fodder, (even at a loss if I had to)...Would be nice to see the 38 Super and 10mm resurrected especially and the .357Sig and .45ACP as affordable as 9mm...My bet is, you'd see a lot of .40 S&W and 9mm's for sale...
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Hey, if you like those, you'll LOVE 400 Corbon. Go put 400 corbon into google. The second hit there calls it the poor man's 10mm. It is a .45 ACP necked down to 40. Basically, the daddy to the .357 Sig. As simple as a barrel swap.
 
Coyote33 said:
Hey, if you like those, you'll LOVE 400 Corbon. Go put 400 corbon into google. The second hit there calls it the poor man's 10mm. It is a .45 ACP necked down to 40. Basically, the daddy to the .357 Sig. As simple as a barrel swap.
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More like a rich man's 10mm. Custom gun, custom brass (or custom ammo), custom price, and no better performance than a 10mm.
 
Coyote33 said:
Hey, if you like those, you'll LOVE 400 Corbon. Go put 400 corbon into google. The second hit there calls it the poor man's 10mm. It is a .45 ACP necked down to 40. Basically, the daddy to the .357 Sig. As simple as a barrel swap.
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.400 Corbon = 10mm that's way more of a pain in the ass than it actually needs to be. Not to mention, if you thought 10mm brass was hard to find.... well, at least 10mm brass is made of obtanium in comparison to that stuff.

-Mike
 
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Timber said:
a millimeter or two of lead / brass jacketing, etc. - doesn't mean shit in a pistol caliber. it's all about powder and delivery mechanism. all "best caliber for home defense / carrying on the street" in civilian application arguments are internet hyperbole.

stopping power is a myth, too.

the problem with the .40 is that no one has designed a good delivery mechanism around the .40 round. they've adapted existing platforms, but that's about it. same way people have spent a century perfecting the 1911 platform.

get the right delivery system, and you'll never hear squat about the round.

i'm not baiting, phishing, trolling, etc... just speaking from experience.
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Probably as true statement in the past but I think that has changed. The Springfield XDM came out in .40S&W first. The 9mm came later.
 
Starline Brass .400 Cor-Bon

400 Corbon vs. 10mm -- conclusions

So, in conclusion, the 400 Corbon is at least as good a round as a 10mm with the addition of the following advantages:

1. An existing 45 ACP firearm can be readily converted to shoot 400 Corbon by the mere drop-in installation of a barrel. The same cannot be said for 10mm as the conversion to fire 10mm is more complex, requiring, at a minimum, a different breech face, magazines and barrel.
2. For the handloader, 400 Corbon brass is cheaper and more readily available than 10mm brass -- one merely necks down 45 ACP brass.
3. A bottle-necked cartridge (e.g. 400 Corbon) feeds more reliably than a straight-necked cartridge (e.g. 10mm).
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Don't shoot the messenger. I'm asking questions about this more than looking for answers. Just offering another choice to the person asking the original question.
 

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