Why all the hate for .40s&w?

dwarven1 said:
Yeah, it was such a mistake that Colt is making it again. Ya know, Bill, when you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is stop digging!
Click to expand...

Gee' I wonder why they ever stopped making such a wonderful gun? [rofl]

I take it you have never heard of the problems with the original DELTA's....how government agencies stopped or never used it.
Or how they stayed on dealer shelves for years (and years).
And were bought as expensive curios by people w/ more $ than brains.
And were told not to fire it much.

If you ever see an original DELTA it will probably be in pristine condition....in it's presentation box. Probably never fired!

Am I digging deep enough for you?
 
lupis42 said:
The mistake was made by the pistol designers, not the cartridge designers.
Click to expand...

Yes, it seems the cartridge was designed with no viable gun in mind? Sure didn't work very well in the 1911, and some others.
But I hear the Glock ones worked OK....how long after the cartridge was designed?

BTW, I visited a local shop this week and they has 23 used hi-cap Glocks....9mm, .40, and yes some 10mm.
 
Then of course there's the roomer going around that 10mm today is closer to a .40 +P than the original NASTY hot load it was....
 
Last edited:
Then of course there's the roomer going around that 10mm today is closed to a .40 +P than the original NASTY hot load it was....
Click to expand...
That would be information, not rumor.

Yes, I forgot about STI/SVI/Para Widebodies.... and Limited/L10.. etc.
Click to expand...
These border on a wildcat caliber. Although they will take standard 40 S&W, the preferred loading is on the hot side and runs 1.18 - 1.20 OAL as opposed to the SAMMI 1.135. Ammo loaded for my SVIs won't even fit in a Glock mag.
 
BillB said:
Then of course there's the roomer going around that 10mm today is closer to a .40 +P than the original NASTY hot load it was....
Click to expand...

Rob Boudrie said:
That would be information, not rumor.
Click to expand...
That would be a load of crap.

.40
200 gr (13 g) Double Tap Hornady XTP JHP 1,050 ft/s (320 m/s) 490 ft·lbf (660 J)

10mm
200 gr (13 g) WFNGC 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 750 ft·lbf (1,020 J)

Both from Doubletap.







OK, so it's not entirely a load of crap. Most factory 10mm is way below SAMMI specs. OTOH, most factory 10mm is also way more expensive than said Doubletap.
 
In the infamous shoot-out with bank-robbers (armed with long-guns), the FBI had several agents killed and more wounded. They commissioned a study to find out what went wrong. The study determined that their marksmanship had been good, but the terminal ballistics of their rounds had been too slow to incapacitate the bad guys. The Chief of the FBI's Firearms unit, knowing of this new cartridge that was more powerful than anything else in an auto-pistol, suggested the FBI adopt it. The 10mm was now blazing hot, with not only the proven 1911 design and the defunct Bren Ten (which is actually a pretty good design), but also the largest and most impressive Law Enforcement Agency in the US as it's first big user! This also promised the possibility of even more pistol designs, as, in true bureaucratic fashion, there would have to be a competitive design contest to pick which pistol to buy and issue, leading more manufacturers to design 10mm handguns. In addition, more high-performance factory ammo was coming into being, including the Winchester Silvertip (175gr JHP @ 1290fps).

But, then, a funny thing happened. Along came a man named Martin Fackler, who was a doctor for the Army, studying the effects of wounds simultaneously and as an adjunct to the FBI's Wound Ballistics Workshop. To make a long story short, he said that a 180gr 10mm bullet at 950fps was just as effective in 10% gelatin as the Norma 170gr bullet at 1350fps. In addition, many FBI agents (who are primarily accountants, attorneys or computer people by training) were found to be having a very hard time with the recoil of the full-power round. Since the lighter round was just as effective and was easier to handle, the "FBI-Load" became the new standard of 10mm ammunition. Due to the huge market for law enforcement ammunition, most companies switched over production to the "FBI Load".

In the mean time, Smith & Wesson realized there was an opportunity waiting. They realized that they could squeeze the FBI-Load's performance out of a cartridge short enough to fit in a 9mm sized firearm, rather than the 45ACP-sized pistols the 10mm required. They designed the 40 S&W in short order with the help of Winchester Ammunition, and the 10mm began to look very much like an ugly duckling again, as it had after the demise of the Bren Ten and before the Colt Delta Elite came out.


http://www.glockfaq.com/content.aspx?ckey=glock_faq_cartridge_information
 
Originally Posted by Marcus5aurelius
.45 or nothing. I refuse to own anything in 40 because there's no reason to..it's just a compromise between the 9 and 45 and loses with both carry count and stopping power.
Click to expand...

I think the fact that there is a long standing argument with 9mm vs .45 is the exact reason that the .40 was supposed to be THE cartridge. You're trying to make the point that it's a compromise and has the worst qualities of the 9 and .45. The other side of that argument is that it is a compromise and has some of the best qualities of both cartridges.
 
Haters can be helpful

One of the determining factors for my choosing .40 S&W for both of my firearms - Glock 27 and CX4 - is that ammo availability is sometimes easier for the simple reason that a lot of people don't want it. The price isn't much more than 9mm, and sometimes significantly less than .45. Keeping both handgun and rifle the same caliber (I really can't afford the "collections" that many of our fellow members enjoy) simplifies maintaining an ammo supply and not having the right round in the wrong place. And as a newbie, getting used to a .40 vs the 9mm or .45 wasn't going to be a factor, they all were going to need the same amount of practice.

I figure if I can consistently put the bullet where I want it to hit, "in the event of a true emergency", that will be more important than a +/- mm of size, or a few % difference in energy at point of impact. So I practise, and I love 'em both.
 
Last edited:
Chrisg67 said:
IMO thats just silly. we compromise things daily to get the best of both worlds.
Click to expand...

Realtor MA said:
I think the fact that there is a long standing argument with 9mm vs .45 is the exact reason that the .40 was supposed to be THE cartridge. You're trying to make the point that it's a compromise and has the worst qualities of the 9 and .45. The other side of that argument is that it is a compromise and has some of the best qualities of both cartridges.
Click to expand...

Yep, but the fact is that both are good on different spectrums. 9mm has high capacity, .45 has high stopping power. If I believe stopping power is much more important than high capacity, I will go with the .45. In no way do I want to reduce the effective stopping power(from my perspective) in order to increase the capacity which is an undesirable trait(to me). IMO, shootouts or attacks are not like in the movies where they take 30 or 40 rounds fired back and forth over and over. You will have only a few shots that will count and if you don't, it will be all over. So, IMO the .40 isn't better in both sides of the spectrum, it's worse
 
BTW, BillB, are you trying to rack up your post count or something? [wink]
All these triple and quadruple post streaks are giving me headaches, there's a button to the right of the "Quote" button at the bottom where you can quote multiple people and respond to several people at once. Might make things easier [smile]
 
I just hope you guys spend more time practicing drawing from concealment, shooting under stress, etc, than you do worrying about calibers.[rolleyes]

This is one topic that gets so annoying and it comes up over and over again.
 
Mr.T said:
One of the determining factors for my choosing .40 S&W for both of my firearms - Glock 27 and CX4 - is that ammo availability is sometimes easier for the simple reason that a lot of people don't want it. The price isn't much more than 9mm, and sometimes significantly less than .45.
Click to expand...
I find it interesting that I have a far harder time trying to sell .40S&W to gunshops than 9 & 45... and if we ever get .380 in again all you'll hear is a huge WHOOSH as it gets sucked out of our warehouse. [laugh]

Seems that .40 isn't as popular as the stores were stocked with it even when they're still crying for 9 and 45.
 
Marcus5aurelius said:
Yep, but the fact is that both are good on different spectrums. 9mm has high capacity, .45 has high stopping power. If I believe stopping power is much more important than high capacity, I will go with the .45. In no way do I want to reduce the effective stopping power(from my perspective) in order to increase the capacity which is an undesirable trait(to me). IMO, shootouts or attacks are not like in the movies where they take 30 or 40 rounds fired back and forth over and over. You will have only a few shots that will count and if you don't, it will be all over. So, IMO the .40 isn't better in both sides of the spectrum, it's worse
Click to expand...

Marcus5aurelius said:
BTW, BillB, are you trying to rack up your post count or something? [wink]
All these triple and quadruple post streaks are giving me headaches, there's a button to the right of the "Quote" button at the bottom where you can quote multiple people and respond to several people at once. Might make things easier [smile]
Click to expand...

I could care less about "post count"....but I never knew how to use multi respond (I looked at it, but never figure it out).
Thanks so much for getting me to try it again.

The .40 IS close to the .45 in performance (closer to the .45 than 9mm)....anyone who things differently has got to be psychotic.

The problem w/ the .45 is the large guns it requires, especially in double stack mags....too large to be comfortable, or concealable for many/most humans.
But there will always be the 1911 fans with there cut down, LOW-cap guns.
(I only need 5 shots types) I was one of them, before the .40....

To each his own....just don't try to say the .40 is some kind of compromise that the caliber above & below it do not have....that is just ridiculous!
 
Marcus5aurelius said:
Yep, but the fact is that both are good on different spectrums. 9mm has high capacity, .45 has high stopping power. If I believe stopping power is much more important than high capacity, I will go with the .45. In no way do I want to reduce the effective stopping power(from my perspective) in order to increase the capacity which is an undesirable trait(to me). IMO, shootouts or attacks are not like in the movies where they take 30 or 40 rounds fired back and forth over and over. You will have only a few shots that will count and if you don't, it will be all over. So, IMO the .40 isn't better in both sides of the spectrum, it's worse
Click to expand...

you are forgetting one very important factor.

what if from your location, the zombies can only get to you through a single doorway? then you have to kill them one by one as they come for you.

you will run out of ammo too fast and die.
 
Chrisg67 said:
you are forgetting one very important factor.

what if from your location, the zombies can only get to you through a single doorway? then you have to kill them one by one as they come for you.

you will run out of ammo too fast and die.
Click to expand...

Nope, I've thought about it. That's where our SW500 comes into play, if the hallways long enough, 5 maybe ten headshots per round [smile]
 
Scrivener said:
Or. that .40 is not and never was available cheaply as surplus ammo. Consequently, many .40 shooters reload.
Click to expand...

This is true. I started picking up .40 brass at the range long before I ever bought a gun chambered for it. I don't think I've ever bought more than 3 boxes of factory .40 in my life, 2 of which are not empty yet, I save these as my carry loads. (too many potential liability problems carrying reloads)
9mm and .45 have also been around about 100 years, while the .40 S&W has been around since 1990. There are literally millions more guns chambered in the older calibers out there.
 
Or. that .40 is not and never was available cheaply as surplus ammo. Consequently, many .40 shooters reload.
Click to expand...
True, but for reloaders, 40 is perhaps the handgun cartridge that is most easily available at low cost.
 
Coyote33 said:
It would be interesting to see what coroners carry. Kind of like what tow truck drivers would recommend for a safe vehicle.
Click to expand...

Tow truck drivers are ill equipped to understand why someone is injured or killed in a particular car vs another.

Tow truck drivers lack the knowledge to make informed decisions on the matter because they are not engineers who make their living understanding how the transmission of impact forces through a car's structure and restraints affects the occupants.

What you are proposing is akin to saying that we do not need astrophysicists to go to the moon, just point a rocket at it and we'll get there.
 

Similar threads

Anyone have an idea of when these were last produced? 12ga federal
Replies
3
Views
115
drgrant
drgrant
From Newsweek. Price Increases on the way.
Replies
1
Views
225
Amputee Marksman
Amputee Marksman
WTS/WTT 303 British
Replies
0
Views
89
yellowstone
yellowstone
Range pickup 10.4 x 28 case. What is this thing?
Replies
11
Views
296
Maxrobot
Maxrobot
Where are all the Velocitors?
Replies
14
Views
746
MaxStravinsky
MaxStravinsky
Back
Top Bottom