Why all the hate for .40s&w?

[drgrant]

who cares. that ballistics gel isn't a person.

It isn't a person but it's as close as a reliable testing medium as we'll likely ever get. The reason it exists is to level the playing field when it comes
to testing calibers- you can test against a known control that's calibrated (the pros usually fire a BB into it at a known velocity to calibrate).

Balgel testing is used because it is the only clean way you can differentiate between "stuff that matters" in wound ballistics... like penetration, expansion, retained
weight, and permanent wound channel.

the odds of being attacked by the incredible hulk are pretty slim.

the 160 pound punk that might jump you isn't going to take a couple rounds of .40 to the chest very well.

Yes, but it's worth being aware that if said punk is hopped up on drugs, a lot of that changes. A couple rounds might not do a damned thing to him if they
don't hit tissues that lead to incapacitation. All you have to do is do some reading to find this to be true- LEOs shoot scumbags all the time that are virtual
bullet tampons. Many of the hits, too, are often considered "decent" hits. Someone will say " b b but that's the extreme!" and to some degree, they're
right.... but it's worth being aware of.... mainly because of the fact that the most dangerous criminals- the people that really need to be shot- are often in this
category.

-Mike

 

[Marcus5aurelius]

Thanks for the post drgrant, makes alot of sense. Getting back to the OP, considering my option: 9, 40, 45 I will still have to go with the 45 because even if it is not perfect, it is the best option IMO without getting into the massive magnums (like you said) which usually become harder to conceal

 

[GSG]

Any links or sources? People can convince me using hard data, not so much what people just tell me. Nothing against you obviously, but I've heard too many people outright lie to convince people of things or skew data in their favor. I'm always open to new opinions or ideas as long as I got data to back them

I'll try to find links, but if you Google the TV show Under Fire (I think it's on Spike or TrueTV), it's a show devoted to actual video of LEO shootings.

I have no doubt that people lie on the Internet. You'll have to trust that the anecdotal evidence isn't a lie, and that I'm sharing in good faith. After the Ferrari scandal on here I think people would tear me apart if I talked out of my arse or made stuff up.

There's a ton of reading you can do online on the subject, everything from police reports to stuff on The Gun Zone to ballistic testing, etc. What I would stress to you is to focus on real-world street level shooting results. Keep in mind I've never shot someone in self defense, but IMO, nothing you read in "The Box O' Truth" or here on NES or anywhere else matters except actual results. Real people using guns for self defense. Anything else is just theory, and while many test like ballistic gelatin and chrono results are scientifically correct, they're not by any means the only factor involved in a self defense shooting.

For whatever it is or isn't worth, What GSG says is right on the nose.

Nice, internet prowess.

Yes, but it's worth being aware that if said punk is hopped up on drugs, a lot of that changes. A couple rounds might not do a damned thing to him if they
don't hit tissues that lead to incapacitation. All you have to do is do some reading to find this to be true- LEOs shoot scumbags all the time that are virtual
bullet tampons. Many of the hits, too, are often considered "decent" hits. Someone will say " b b but that's the extreme!" and to some degree, they're
right.... but it's worth being aware of.... mainly because of the fact that the most dangerous criminals- the people that really need to be shot- are often in this
category.

-Mike

Another thing to consider is that while we'll hear a ton about how many times widely reported people like Sean Bell were shot, there's a ton more civilian and LEO shootings that never get reported. All we know is what we hear, and for obvious reasons, a lot of people who've gone through stuff like this aren't chomping at the bit to share their story with people they don't know.

That doesn't mean I think everyone you shoot won't notice, but it does mean that my range time reflects that death might not be enough for some people.

 

[M1911]

Hang a rump roast off a string on a target hanger, and hit it with a 9mm, then hit it with a .40, and then a .45 into it. You'll soon discover that there isn't a dramatic difference. (Things might get interesting with a large magnum caliber, like a .460 or a .500, though... but they're an order of magnitude or more powerful than a typical handgun caliber used for self defense. Even the 10mm Auto, which is pretty much the biggest semi caliber that's practical, is still way below those two!)

Yup. I just don't think there is a huge difference. Here in the US we spend all our time looking for the latest silver bullet that will ensure we prevail -- the best caliber, the best bullet design, the best gun, etc. If we took 1/2 of the time that we spend on that navel gazing and instead spent it dry-firing, we'd be far ahead of the game.

 

[Flyer007]

Yup. I just don't think there is a huge difference. Here in the US we spend all our time looking for the latest silver bullet that will ensure we prevail -- the best caliber, the best bullet design, the best gun, etc. If took 1/2 of the time that we spend on that navel gazing and instead spent it dry-firing, we'd be far ahead of the game.

My thoughts exactly........Find what you can shoot well with. Then practice, practice, and practice some more.

That means practice all elements for defensive use.

For example, can you present the firearm when wearing the different types of clothing you use?

Can you present, aquire and fire under stress?

Clear a FTE, FTF aquire and fire?

If so....then youv'e taken care of the large % that your gonna survive.

 

[BillB]

The 13" penetration requirement has nothing to do with barrier penetration and everything to do with making sure a bullet will go through an arm and still hit the good stuff.



Why do you bring this up? Far from being one of the first 10mm's, the Delta Elite was a relative latecomer, and is largely credited with saving the 10mm. It was also not a 'mistake'. The Delta Elite was (and is) a fine pistol.

Are you confusing it with the D&D Bren Ten? The Bren Ten failed not because it was a bad pistol, but because the company couldn't produce magazines for it and ended up going out of business.

The fact remains that the 10mm can be loaded to do anything the .40 S&W can do and them some.

That's right, a bullet that can penetrate 13+" is better for hitting vitals if someone is shot in the arm....but will go right through someone shot from the front (or back).
Public/civilian safety was the priority, therefore the mandated .38 special for most LEO's....then the Miama FBI shootout (I believe the first in like 100 years for them), then the shift to 'LEO safety' and newer guns & ammo that prevails to this day.

If I remember correctly the Delta Elite was the second (major) pistol chambered for the 10mm, after the Bren Ten went under....and the Delta Elite was plagued with frame or slide cracks (which they eventually fixed).
It wasn't until the Glock 10mm that it became a little better accepted.

 

[DirkDiggler]

Nothing wrong w/ a 40, or a 9mm, a .45, .38, etc.

Its a toolbox, you use the right tool for the job.

 

[wahsben]

Nothing wrong w/ a 40, or a 9mm, a .45, .38, etc.

Its a toolbox, you use the right tool for the job.

Exactly, but some people are not happy unless their complaining.

 

[EddieCoyle]

If I remember correctly the Delta Elite was the second (major) pistol chambered for the 10mm, after the Bren Ten went under....and the Delta Elite was plagued with frame or slide cracks (which they eventually fixed).
It wasn't until the Glock 10mm that it became a little better accepted.

No. S&W came after the Bren Ten. The FBI adopted the S&W 1076 and had some initial problems (that S&W fixed). S&W also made the 1006, 1026, 1046, 1066, and 1086 in 10mm. Only after the FBI dropped the 10mm, and it looked like it was going to die, Colt came out with the DE.

 

[Dench]

I think the .40 SW is a good round.
I also think that most of the hate for the .40 SW is becuase its become a cliché thing to do on NES since Eddie has a strong and entertaining opinion on it.

I carry 2 calibers: .40 SW and .357 SIG. Either round is powerful and either round is going to really hurt some bad guys feelings when it drives it self into them.

 

[lupis42]

I think the .40 SW is a good round.
I also think that most of the hate for the .40 SW is becuase its become a cliché thing to do on NES since Eddie has a strong and entertaining opinion on it.

I carry 2 calibers: .40 SW and .357 SIG. Either round is powerful and either round is going to really hurt some bad guys feelings when it drives it self into them.

Ultimately, I hate the .40 because I like 10mm and I blame the .40 (rightly or wrongly) for the dearth of 10mm ammo. It's not so much that I view .40 as bad though, it's just that the one small advantage that it offers over 10mm (grip size) is a negative for me, and it comes at considerable expense (in terms of peak performance).

 

[EddieCoyle]

I think the .40 SW is a good round.
I also think that most of the hate for the .40 SW is becuase its become a cliché thing to do on NES since Eddie has a strong and entertaining opinion on it.

I carry 2 calibers: .40 SW and .357 SIG. Either round is powerful and either round is going to really hurt some bad guys feelings when it drives it self into them.

It better drive itself. I've seen you shoot it.

 

[BillB]

No. S&W came after the Bren Ten. The FBI adopted the S&W 1076 and had some initial problems (that S&W fixed). S&W also made the 1006, 1026, 1046, 1066, and 1086 in 10mm. Only after the FBI dropped the 10mm, and it looked like it was going to die, Colt came out with the DE.

Ya' I knew I was missing one, the gun the FBI used for a few years before going .40,

http://www.chuckhawks.com/s-w_1076_pistol.htm

 

[Dench]

It better drive itself. I've seen you shoot it.

My pistol shooting has improved a lot since May.

 

[Realtor MA]

Nothing wrong w/ a 40, or a 9mm, a .45, .38, etc.

Its a toolbox, you use the right tool for the job.

I think this discussion is about choosing the right tool and why some people dislike a certain tool.

So which do you prefer?

 

[Speedway]

The .40 was invented by French women so they'd have something to shoot while their husbands cooked.

I want to use that as my signature. Any objections, EC?

 

[EddieCoyle]

I want to use that as my signature. Any objections, EC?

Nope.

 

[Speedway]

Nope.

Thanks, EC!

+1 to you for the signature.

 

[GSG]

I think this discussion is about choosing the right tool and why some people dislike a certain tool.

So which do you prefer?

Yeah. Unless you're going to argue over the little stuff with the rest of us, butt out of the thread mister.

(Just kidding).

 

[jhblaze1]

Why all the hate for the .40 S+W?.

Because way jump on the 45ACP bandwagon in much the same way those who are hung like field mice buy big trucks, simple overcompensation for little dinkies.

I invite anyone who thinks the .40S+W is "useless" to stand in front of one when it goes bang.

 

[Realtor MA]

Yeah. Unless you're going to argue over the little stuff with the rest of us, butt out of the thread mister.

(Just kidding).

 

[lupis42]

Because way jump on the 45ACP bandwagon in much the same way those who are hung like field mice buy big trucks, simple overcompensation for little dinkies.

I invite anyone who thinks the .40S+W is "useless" to stand in front of one when it goes bang.

I don't think it's useless, just redundant

 

[Scrivener]

I don't think it's useless, just redundant

"Redundant?" How is a caliber filling the gap between 9mm and .45 ACP, never mind 10mm, "redundant?"

I can think of two calibers far more deserving of that appellation; each in the same range:

1. .357 SIG

2. .45 GAP

The former owes much of its popularity to being adopted by the Feds, the Air Marshals in particular. But for that, it's cost would likely have doomed it.

The latter was a stillbirth; even Glock's marketing could not save it from being DOA.

 

[lupis42]

"Redundant?" How is a caliber filling the gap between 9mm and .45 ACP, never mind 10mm, "redundant?"

There is no load in .40 that cannot be duplicated in 10mm. There is no capacity advantage to .40 over 10mm. So what does .40 do better than 10mm?


Besides blow up Glocks

 

[GSG]

I invite anyone who thinks the .40S+W is "useless" to stand in front of one when it goes bang.

Seems every caliber war devolves to this at some point.

"Redundant?" How is a caliber filling the gap between 9mm and .45 ACP, never mind 10mm, "redundant?"

I can think of two calibers far more deserving of that appellation; each in the same range:

1. .357 SIG

2. .45 GAP

The former owes much of its popularity to being adopted by the Feds, the Air Marshals in particular. But for that, it's cost would likely have doomed it.

The latter was a stillbirth; even Glock's marketing could not save it from being DOA.

Keep saying mean things like that and I just might cry, Mr. Scrivener. I already said earlier, that's my caliber...my feelings hurt now.

 

[Scrivener]

Keep saying mean things like that [about .357 SIG] and I just might cry, Mr. Scrivener. I already said earlier, that's my caliber...my feelings hurt now.

So drop in a .40 barrel and cut your costs about 30%.

If you haven't already, that is.

 

[Scrivener]

There is no load in .40 that cannot be duplicated in 10mm. There is no capacity advantage to .40 over 10mm. So what does .40 do better than 10mm?

Do it in a gun with a smaller frame in a more controllable manner. Hence its popularity with PD's.

And with more power than a 9mm as frosting on the cake.

Besides blow up Glocks

That's not a defect; it's a "feature benefit."

I like to think of it as ballistic Darwinism.

And yes; I have owned a Glock. A G23 to be specific. A nice appliance, if that's all you want in a firearm.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

So what does .40 do better than 10mm?

Primer commonality with 38 Super and 9mm.

 

[eisenhow]

Primer commonality with 38 Super and 9mm.

and .38spl

 

[lupis42]

Do it in a gun with a smaller frame in a more controllable manner. Hence its popularity with PD's.

You can get the same light recoil out of the 10mm by loading it to Feeble Bureau of Investigation specs. I concede that the frame size can be slightly smaller with the same capacity, but I just don't see the grip size on the Delta Elite or G20 and G29 as that bad.

And with more power than a 9mm as frosting on the cake.

Mmmm... cake...


Sorry, what was that again? Why settle for more power than a 9mm when you can have more power than a .45 and still have more capacity in the same size gun?

That's not a defect; it's a "feature benefit."

I like to think of it as ballistic Darwinism.

And yes; I have owned a Glock. A G23 to be specific. A nice appliance, if that's all you want in a firearm.

I like to think of it as Glock showing everyone what they really think of .40

But I do think a carry gun should be an appliance. It's a device for putting pullets where I want them and when I want them. Not that there's anything wrong with aesthetics, I just don't think aesthetics are relevant when choosing a gun as one's primary weapon.


ETA:

Rob,
AFAIK, the 10mm shares primers with the .45, hence reloaders and manufacturers who deal in 9mm and .45 are set either way? Is that not the case?