Where can't I concealed carry in MA?

[Rob Boudrie]

Look I know it is not going to happen, and I in no way would expect to keep the same size MSP and bigger Sheriff depts. Done the correct way I believe it could work.

Right. That's like adding a new tax to reduce an old one. Even if the old one is reduced, the sum total always increases.

 

[Mikey]

Right. That's like adding a new tax to reduce an old one. Even if the old one is reduced, the sum total always increases.

So then let's just give up and let the commies take over. They already control a good 90% of this state. I think I will run down to the local PD right now and tell the Chief to stop giving out ALP-class A, why fight the power.


The link below is the kind of thing I am talking about, read it then ask yourself do you think the MSP would or even could do something like this.

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17197&highlight=sheriff

 

[LoginName]

I

And lastly, I like to hike and walk in the woods. Both serious hikes up real mountains as well as pleasant walks through the many woods, national wildlife refuges, conservations lands owned by various entities [town, state], Mass Audubon Society properties and Trustees of Reservations properties. Of all the places to need a gun, you'd think alone in the woods a mile from anyone would be a good place. Although, I have never had any issues in the woods with people and have always felt safe... only dogs have been a potential threat and I have pepper spray for them. BUT, nearly every woods I go to has a sign saying "No hunting and no firearms". The no hunting I can understand. But what's with the no firearms?? If what they really mean is you can't bring your gun into the woods and just start firing at tin cans and rocks, then they should say so, and that I would understand. Is it actually "illegal" to carry a gun on these lands, or is it just a policy? If it is a policy and I violate it and somehow end up in a situation where the police want to check me out, would I be in any kind of legal trouble (other than having to leave the property)? And there's either national parks or national forests (I get those mixed up)... illegal on a federal level apparently?

Thanks for any advice!

I encountered this situation yesterday.

Went to the Middlesex Falls Reservation to play around with my digital camera and maybe gets some nice wildlife pictures. I was pretty far back in the woods on one of the trails and some mixed breed/yellow lab came bounding out of nowhere growling/barking heading right for me. The f***er stopped and stood his ground about a foot away from me and took a snap at me. At just about this time the owner came running up yelling at the dog to back away. He apologized to me but I was a bit shaken to say anything and walked away cursing to myself (probably just as well as the mood I was in would have made a bad situation worse). Unfortunately, my asshat CLEO doesn't issue Class A ALP or I would have been carrying. I go to the Fells once in a great while but never really thought about the dog situation much until now (it's a bit infuriating seeing all the unleashed dogs running around despite the rules that prohibit it ). I never really considered carrying
pepper spray before but from now on it'll be part of my equipment check when I go up there.

Anyhow... later on that evening I checked the rules online to see what the firearms/no firearms policy is... kind of interesting the way they put it...

Park Regulations

(9) Dogs must be leashed and controlled by a leash not more
than seven feet.

(15) Hunting, trapping, and the possesion or discharge of any
firearm including but not limited to, shotgun, rifle,bow and
arrow, handgun or explosive is prohibited.

(16) Please refer to 350 CMR 2.01 for full list. This is only a
summary.

http://www.fells.org/File/Fells_rules_and_regs.pdf

So... this is only a summary of the rules and it's covered by the MA CMRs... not MA general law.

350 CMR 2.01 states...

(p) No person, unless authorized by law or permit, shall have possession of or discharge any weapon, firearm, fireworks or other explosive.

http://www.fellsbiker.com/information/350cmr.pdf

 

[Chris]

Don't ya love the way a 'Summary" so clearly states the actual law?

Your FID/LTC is a permit authorized by law.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You can eat in a <name of pub here> fine, but if you want to visit the restroom, frequently you have to walk into/thru the bar to get there. Major problem in places like AZ. NOT a problem in MA or NH.

AZ is a bad example, as you cannot CCW (even with a permit) in any portion of the establishement that is licensed to serve alcohol for on-premises consumption.

 

[DickWanner]

Read the thread from last month regarding the Worcester County Reserve Deputy's Association. I sat back and watched (well read, anyway) as people talked of getting "sworn in" by showing up and filling out an application and pretty much promising to donate and help raise funds for the current Sheriff; they spoke of using this to obtain LEO weapons and avoid traffic tickets and getting discounts. A highly trained and noble minded group....yeah, right! That is just what we need; a group of people that didn't bother to go through the normal rigors and challenges and difficulty of an academy; that don't have the dedication to make being a legitimate LEO a career; a group that just wants to reap the rewards (and apparently some swag along the way) without the sacrifice.....ummm, no thanks!

http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=16233&highlight=worcester+county+sheriff

Hey now I was thinking of signing up myself. For $25 fee and an extra $100 I can carry around a 'nifty, official looking' badge that might get me out of a few traffic offenses . The part about obtaining LEO weapons and discount is false though, my coworker is one of these "elite" () and it's nothing more than a fancy title and a gold badge that you have a permit to carry.

 

[DickWanner]

Oh and I had an "park incident" myself at Mt. Wachusett last week. My buddies were bored and decided to pay $2 and drive up the mountain to kill a few hours. When we got half way up 3 of us got out and the other 2 drove the rest of the way up. I was being careless and accidentally printed when I was climbing up some rocks, but being in a park I didn't think much of it. Well I forgot to take into account that it was some sort of "family day" and some stupid a$$clown soccer mom told the park rangers that there was a "man in a green shirt with a gun" (not that he was waiving it around or anything relevant like that). So when I get to the top these two ranger Dan's approach me and ask to see my Carry Permit. I oblige feeling I have nothing to hide and there were no signs anywhere stating firearms were not permitted. Then they're like "do you mind while the local PD comes to check this, we had to call the police becuase we got a report of a man with a gun" . So this Princeton female LEO shows up and runs my licenses, then tells me "you caused alot of trouble today (wtf?), next time conceal it better or leave it at home". I was like yea sure thing. Keep in mind the whole time my buddies are laughing at me and telling this group of women what is happening. So as we are leaving the group of women waves to me and then salutes (they told them I was in the army). I thought it was pretty retarded through and through but this is Massachusetts we're talking about, as it's almost impossible to get any more retarded than it already is.

 

[LoginName]

Don't ya love the way a 'Summary" so clearly states the actual law?

Your FID/LTC is a permit authorized by law.

That's my point. How much more difficult would it have been to inform people in truthful terms that possession of firearms is allowed if one has the proper license rather than be misleading about it?

It's an attempt to discourage firearms possession because they know most people (gun owners), will take it at face value and not bother with checking the details.

 

[Twigg]

Yeesh

Nobody even mentioned the Post Office.

Yer slippin'.

*ducks & runs*

 

[Emoto]

Oh and I had an "park incident" myself at Mt. Wachusett last week. My buddies were bored and decided to pay $2 and drive up the mountain to kill a few hours. When we got half way up 3 of us got out and the other 2 drove the rest of the way up. I was being careless and accidentally printed when I was climbing up some rocks, but being in a park I didn't think much of it. Well I forgot to take into account that it was some sort of "family day" and some stupid a$$clown soccer mom told the park rangers that there was a "man in a green shirt with a gun" (not that he was waiving it around or anything relevant like that). So when I get to the top these two ranger Dan's approach me and ask to see my Carry Permit. I oblige feeling I have nothing to hide and there were no signs anywhere stating firearms were not permitted. Then they're like "do you mind while the local PD comes to check this, we had to call the police becuase we got a report of a man with a gun" . So this Princeton female LEO shows up and runs my licenses, then tells me "you caused alot of trouble today (wtf?), next time conceal it better or leave it at home". I was like yea sure thing. Keep in mind the whole time my buddies are laughing at me and telling this group of women what is happening. So as we are leaving the group of women waves to me and then salutes (they told them I was in the army). I thought it was pretty retarded through and through but this is Massachusetts we're talking about, as it's almost impossible to get any more retarded than it already is.

She gave you good advice.

 

[drgrant]

Oh and I had an "park incident" myself at Mt. Wachusett last week. My buddies were bored and decided to pay $2 and drive up the mountain to kill a few hours. When we got half way up 3 of us got out and the other 2 drove the rest of the way up. I was being careless and accidentally printed when I was climbing up some rocks, but being in a park I didn't think much of it. Well I forgot to take into account that it was some sort of "family day" and some stupid a$$clown soccer mom told the park rangers that there was a "man in a green shirt with a gun" (not that he was waiving it around or anything relevant like that). So when I get to the top these two ranger Dan's approach me and ask to see my Carry Permit. I oblige feeling I have nothing to hide and there were no signs anywhere stating firearms were not permitted. Then they're like "do you mind while the local PD comes to check this, we had to call the police becuase we got a report of a man with a gun" . So this Princeton female LEO shows up and runs my licenses, then tells me "you caused alot of trouble today (wtf?), next time conceal it better or leave it at home". I was like yea sure thing. Keep in mind the whole time my buddies are laughing at me and telling this group of women what is happening. So as we are leaving the group of women waves to me and then salutes (they told them I was in the army). I thought it was pretty retarded through and through but this is Massachusetts we're talking about, as it's almost impossible to get any more retarded than it already is.

They charged you $2 to drive up the mountain? Didn't know
they were doing that now, or is that only a special event
thing?


-Mike

 

[WayneWong]

I know this is a stupid question, but...

I noticed in some of the photographs of NES shooters at the range, that sidearms are holstered open carry. I think I understand that Mass. Laws do not prohibit open carry of a hand gun with an unrestricted license, but that it's a suitability issue of freaking out the public. Obviously, that's not an issue at the range.

Now, with a license restricted to target, is it OK for me to have a firearm holstered between trigger times like if I want to keep it with me to take a leak or get a drink of water or go down range with the group to check our targets?

Yes, it's a dumb question, but it's a dumb law. It would seem allowable because the idea is not to carry in public for self defense, which is definitely not the case here, but to keep the firearm secure and under my control at all times at the range.

Any comments?

 

[Prepper]

What's the significance of a "CMR"?

So, you're saying it IS legal to carry in the Fells as long as you have a LTC? Do the police know this? (I only ask that because it doesn't do me a whole lot of good if the police still arrest me because they don't interpret the sign the same way as I do.)

And be careful in the Fells... LOTS of weirdos there! I almost had to pepper spray a dog there once but the dog recognized that the can pointing at him would cause pain (I wonder why!) and backed off to about 12 feet (wow he even knows the range of the stream). (Idiot owner couldn't care less either.)

 

[Rob Boudrie]

CMRs are "regulations" that can carry financial penalties.

Hopefully one of the lawyers on this forum can let us know a few of the basics:

1. Is the court result for a CMR violation a finding of "guilty or not guilty" or "responsible or not responsible"?

2. If one is found to have a violated a CMR is it a criminal offense or a violation? (probably just another way of asking quesiton #1)

3. Are violations of CMRs arrestable offenses or just citable?

4. Do findings of a violation of a CMR go into a criminal record?

Can any lawyers here fill us in?

 

[RKG]

What's the significance of a "CMR"?

So, you're saying it IS legal to carry in the Fells as long as you have a LTC? Do the police know this? (I only ask that because it doesn't do me a whole lot of good if the police still arrest me because they don't interpret the sign the same way as I do.)

And be careful in the Fells... LOTS of weirdos there! I almost had to pepper spray a dog there once but the dog recognized that the can pointing at him would cause pain (I wonder why!) and backed off to about 12 feet (wow he even knows the range of the stream). (Idiot owner couldn't care less either.)

Short answer: a regulation promulgated by an administrative agency (which is what gets published in the Code of Massachusetts Regulations) has the same force and effect as a statute enacted by the General Court (which usually becomes part of the General Laws).

The longer answer would fill several pages, requires an understanding of the Administrative Procedures Act, and, in particular, requires an analysis of the somewhat esoteric distinctions between "interpretive regulations" and "legislative regulations." Suffice it to observe for present purposes that the situations in which regulations published in the CMR do not have the force of law are few and far between.

 

[RKG]

CMRs are "regulations" that can carry financial penalties.

Hopefully one of the lawyers on this forum can let us know a few of the basics:

1. Is the court result for a CMR violation a finding of "guilty or not guilty" or "responsible or not responsible"?

2. If one is found to have a violated a CMR is it a criminal offense or a violation? (probably just another way of asking quesiton #1)

3. Are violations of CMRs arrestable offenses or just citable?

4. Do findings of a violation of a CMR go into a criminal record?

Can any lawyers here fill us in?

This is unsound. See above.

Whether a criminal proceeding can be commenced for conduct violative of an administrative regulation, and, if so, what the penalties might be, depend entirely on the language of the agency's enabling statute. Going a bit out on a limb, usually they are limited to fines (and, therefore, constitute misdemeanors), but I'm unsure how much I'd bet that this generality is always the rule. A misdemeanor is -- again as a generality and with some statutory exceptions, such as larceny -- not arrestable unless it constitutes an on-going breach of the peace.

The best advice is to treat CMR-published edicts as if they were statutory edicts and follow them.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I don't understand the meaning of "this is unsound" since all I did was ask questions .

As to "Going a bit out on a limb, usually they are limited to fines (and, therefore, constitute misdemeanors)" - the fact that something carries a fine does not necessarily mean it's a misdemeanor (though it probably means it's not a felony). There are many non-criminal offenses (traffic violations come to mind) that carry civil penalties without status of "misdemeanor".

So, basically, I take your answer to mean "It depends"

 

[Chris]

the fact that something carries a fine does not necessarily mean it's a misdemeanor (though it probably means it's not a felony).

In several cases, the law that authorizes the creation of a regulation (CMR) itself defines some criminal punishment for a violation of the regulations. A good example is the explosives regulations.

 

[RKG]

I don't understand the meaning of "this is unsound" since all I did was ask questions .

As to "Going a bit out on a limb, usually they are limited to fines (and, therefore, constitute misdemeanors)" - the fact that something carries a fine does not necessarily mean it's a misdemeanor (though it probably means it's not a felony). There are many non-criminal offenses (traffic violations come to mind) that carry civil penalties without status of "misdemeanor".

So, basically, I take your answer to mean "It depends"

Sorry; I meant the first sentence.

 

[RKG]

I don't understand the meaning of "this is unsound" since all I did was ask questions .

As to "Going a bit out on a limb, usually they are limited to fines (and, therefore, constitute misdemeanors)" - the fact that something carries a fine does not necessarily mean it's a misdemeanor (though it probably means it's not a felony). There are many non-criminal offenses (traffic violations come to mind) that carry civil penalties without status of "misdemeanor".

So, basically, I take your answer to mean "It depends"

Certainly "it depends" on the nature of the reg. and the wording of the agency's enabling act.

However, in general and until recently, any "fine" as a punishment for prohibited behavior was necessarily a criminal remedy. The odd notion of "civil penalties", which is a creature of necessity designed to relieve the Court system of traffic offenses, is quite new and relatively limited.

 

[vellnueve]

Now, with a license restricted to target, is it OK for me to have a firearm holstered between trigger times like if I want to keep it with me to take a leak or get a drink of water or go down range with the group to check our targets?

Yes, it is legal. Carry refers not just to carry as normal gunnies understand it, but to any sort of firearms possession where the firearm is directly in your possession (aka, holding it at the firing line, carrying it in a case, carrying it holstered. Since you would be holster carrying it while target shooting, that would fall within the bounds of your LTC. Now, carrying it concealed might not be, if like my LTC, it says "no concealed carry", but open carry at the range, as long as it abides by your range's rules, is not a problem.

 

[benster]

And be careful in the Fells... LOTS of weirdos there!

Not to go off topic, but I was walking the Rock Circuit Trail in the Fells today and a homeless person had started a campsite right off the trail! I always CCW in the woods now b/c of aggressive unleashed dogs and weird people I've come across in the woods more and more.

 

[9000S]

Crap....

Currently I am just a delivery driver dropping pizza's off.... but I carry often due to some sketchy locations and having upwards of 400 bucks in cash on me at the end of the night... but I often during the day do drops at schools and usually carry. Fook. Guess word of the day is concealed, really really concealed and since they cant search me. I am not going to tell them what it is if i am printing... makes me nervous though even though most of the time I am in and out in 5 mins or less...

 

[Mikey]

A friend use to deliver pizzas and his friend who did the same was sent to drop off a pizza and was stabbed for the twenty bucks he had on him, the pizza was ordered just for that purpose. This was in Springfield a couple years ago. Pizza guys should definitely carry but as far as schools, it is illegal.

 

[DickWanner]

She gave you good advice.

It was in the fricken woods. I've been hiking many-a-times and seen people OC for protection against woodland creatures. So once again becuase Mass libby's and under-educated soccer mom's get freaked out at the site of a firearm I am restricted in my rights to CCW only.

 

[DickWanner]

A friend use to deliver pizzas and his friend who did the same was sent to drop off a pizza and was stabbed for the twenty bucks he had on him, the pizza was ordered just for that purpose. This was in Springfield a couple years ago. Pizza guys should definitely carry but as far as schools, it is illegal.

There are other options such as OC spray, but that won't help you if the BG has a knife in the "gun free school zone". The question is do you break the law to protect your life?

 

[Mikey]

The question is do you break the law to protect your life?

That is the question but I think everyone will agree that NES and most of it's users do not condone breaking the law, so as far as schools most will say no carry, maybe we can get the laws changed someday....

 

[DickWanner]

That is the question but I think everyone will agree that NES and most of it's users do not condone breaking the law, so as far as schools most will say no carry, maybe we can get the laws changed someday....

I agree whole-heartedly. That's why I'm limited to defensive spray when I'm on campus. Though once I get to my car parked off-campus the holster, glock, and spare mag are stealthy taken out of my car safe and put on. I made the decision when I got my Class A LTC that it was gonna be an all or nothing deal, I hate playing the 'what ifs' game. But then again maybe I'm just still too young and naive


My next step is to pick up some of that new Vextor spray, I heard it puts Fox Labs to shame.

 

[vellnueve]

Carrying OC on a campus without the permission of the administration or designee is also illegal per MGLs.

 

[joe6486]

Technically true, but I think the language is "any dangerous weapon", so it's pretty vague. But there's a world of difference between getting hassled for carrying OC vs. a firearm. I doubt anyone has been given a hard time over OC.

Carrying OC on a campus without the permission of the administration or designee is also illegal per MGLs.