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What rifle would you want on your way out to the revolution?
- Thread starter calsdad
- Start date
Wildweasel
NES Member
for me it would be my bullpup Bushy M17s or Mini 14 folder. then for crew served my belt fed 1919a4 on the Willys MB and the RPK for light dutys.
Lot's to consider here. Is it an extended/long term situation? If so then resupply becomes an issue. That being said, it will depend on your sources at your locations. If a NATO military supply is at hand then 308 or 223 becomes easier to obtain. Also to consider is reliability over time, perhaps without proper cleaning supplies. AR's and AK's are assault rifles by definition. If you are part of a small insurgency you are not wanting to assault anyone. Better would be a longer range rifle. Even a nice bolt gun like a Remington 700 can be very effective and should not be disregarded. You cannot stand and fight. To do so would be suicidal. Again, a bolt gun come to mind. Ask any veteran how hard it is to locate a sniper that fires only one shot from any location at a distance. The 'decapitation' method mentioned earlier in this thread is the key to success imho. All this in mind, I would pick a 9mm pistol for close defense and a bolt action from a major manufacturer in either 308 (7.62NATO) or 30-06. The 30-06 can be obtained in every corner of the world as a hunting cartridge. Go to any gun store and count the number of 30-06 selections versus any other caliber. 308 is also easily obtainable and will be supplied to most NATO and US forces to supply their MG's. Also earlier someone mentioned the fact that what they have is all they may get. That is fine. Anything you can hit at 600 yards with is going to work for you in a least the short term. No insurgency will survive close many urban assaults. The numbers are against you. Think small hit and run tactics. Resupply missions and such. If I had to run with what I had it would be a Mauser in 8mm as that is what I have lot's of ammo in bandoleers for. I am dubious of the 223 round in general and the AR series in particular so I would avoid it. Remember, your pick must work for you for perhaps hundreds of rounds and several months without proper cleaning supplies. A bolt gun makes up for it's rate of fire with the better reliability and accuracy at longer ranges. It's not like I'm planning an uprising or anything.....
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I like "Fred"'s stuff, and I like the Appleseed program (yup, I shot Rifleman). Fred's viewpoint is as a target shooter, not a combat rifleman.....so I question the experience behind his recomendation.
I've carried the M-14 in the Korean DMZ and used it on my divisional rifle team, so I do have some trigger time on the rifle.
IMO it's a great target rifle but I think it has several failings as a potential battle rifle. For a 7.62 rifle I prefer the FAL. The controls are layed out properly (for a righty), mag changes are a LOT faster, and compared to a rack grade M-14 it's just as accurate. The National Match M-14 requires careful treatment and tuning. The only thing the M-14 has over the FAL are the sights, which I think are the best sights ever put on a rifle, period. However, I've had those fail on me, too, once right in the middle of a match.
Of course an original AR-10 would trump all of that, but unfortunately that day is well past us. The newer 762 AR types don't seem to have the same reliability. I digress.
Try shooting a rifle match with one (Pelhma F&G has them, I call it IDPA for rifles) and you'll discover the FAL advantage. Fred's scenario of the team of rifleman striking from afar and disappearing in the forest is applicable only to a few of us living in truly rural areas.....if we are fighting against Chinese invaders or UN occupiers it will look more like Fallujah than Concord bridge. I rifle iike the M-14 would be better served in the role it takes now, that of a semi-specialized rifle in the squad.
Again IMO, YMMV, no warranty real or implied.
If the Chinese invade I'll take my M-4gery and my bolt action .308 and waddle out to meet them.
If I could only take ONE rifle to face armegeddon, giant cockroaches, killer clowns, or Mad Max type stuff it would be my FAL.
If I could take two it would be the M4rgery and the long gun.
For those of you who are fans of the FAL, or want to know a bit more about it, this story appeared today at Military.com. Click on this link:
http://www.military.com/news/article/the-ultimate-battle-rifle.html?ESRC=dod.nl
http://www.military.com/news/article/the-ultimate-battle-rifle.html?ESRC=dod.nl
Nice article, but he refers to the "folding" and "fixed" carrying handles I suspect he means the charging handle.....
I also think he's never reloaded a FAL as the mag release is perfectly located for the left thumb to release after inserting a mag. Very fast.
TimJ, I do believe there were some folding stock FALs. It's not the charging handle they are talking about. They do make a folding stock, 18" barrel paratroop version, and others as well.
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
I'd go with the M1 - I know it, and can shoot it well. I'm not very familiar with the AR-15 yet (which should change soon!), although I did like it the one time I shot one.
And my choice for "other" would be something like a scoped TC Contender in .223 - small but accurate, and easy to hide in, say, a backpack.
Why, yes, I'm reading Enemies Foreign and Domestic; why do you ask?![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Seriously, if you haven't read it and you're reading this thread, pick up a copy. Among other things, one of the characters uses a renamed Contender in just the role I mentioned. I'd loan you my copy, but pages 506-537 are MISSING and I'm waiting for Amazon to ship me the replacement. ![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
And my choice for "other" would be something like a scoped TC Contender in .223 - small but accurate, and easy to hide in, say, a backpack.
Why, yes, I'm reading Enemies Foreign and Domestic; why do you ask?
Seriously, if you haven't read it and you're reading this thread, pick up a copy. Among other things, one of the characters uses a renamed Contender in just the role I mentioned. I'd loan you my copy, but pages 506-537 are MISSING and I'm waiting for Amazon to ship me the replacement. 
Well, Derek, you vouched for the Marines, and now, I'm going to vouch for the Army and Army Guard.
Dench, I don't know what oath you swore to, but the one I swore to was to protect the Constitution against ALL enemies foreign and DOMESTIC.
Folks, there's lots of good info here, but, remember, if the day should come to revolt, you're going to find about a million well armed professionals on YOUR side, that are armed and not afraid.
Funny thing happened this weekend. A few people mentioned to me about the "secret internment camps" that were now already built. That we had to arm ourselves, because the US Gov't was going to send our troops to Canada to take over there, while the Canadian Army was going to take over here, and disarm everybody. My response? "What, all 3 of them?" (Consider first the size of the Canadian Army, and the number of armed American citizens. Then consider that I happen to have done a little time with the Canadian Army, and they aren't any different than Americans.)
Of course, they refused to grasp that the Gov't just wouldn't be able to keep this secret all this time.
You know, you just can't make this stuff up.
Correct, but, don't forget, they've all been "only dropped once".
Big Daddy 45acp
Instructor
In order of prerefernce:
M14
M1
Ak
AR15
SKS
I love the M14 or M1A even without the go fast switch. I would use it until failure or my ammo supply runs out.
Same with the M1 and subsequent choices.
M14
M1
Ak
AR15
SKS
I love the M14 or M1A even without the go fast switch. I would use it until failure or my ammo supply runs out.
Same with the M1 and subsequent choices.
Well, you are the one that figured some of the troops would willinly shoot US Citizens, not me.
Check your posts. Even Derek called you on it.
what does that have to do with the oath i took? the way i take a oath and the way a insane person takes it are 2 different things. some people would love nothing more to hurt other people, regardless of a oath they took.
derek can call me on it all he wants. i dont agree with him. in my opinion there are many people in the military and the government that wouldnt think twice about shooting any person for any reason.
Yes they do ;-). But he mentions handles in the article....
I've been building FAL's since the early 1990's....
TimJ, that was the point he was making. There is a "folding handle". You don't show it on yours, but it's sort of the more memorable of FAL features. Black metal, swivels on a pin at the barrel/receiver, has finger grooves.
I thought that was standard on "Inch" FAL's.
Big Daddy 45acp
Instructor
Just ask Lynne about some of the Coasties we worked with in Boston just after 9/11.
One in particular comes to mind. Reminded me of Francis in Stripes.
"Most metric-pattern FALs came in full-auto with fixed carrying handles, while inch-pattern FALs were predominantly semi-auto with folding carrying handles. Once again, exceptions are the rule, so you can't simply glance at a FAL and decide from, say, the selector or the carrying handle whether it's inch or metric."
Metric and Inch FALs came with carrying handles that folded, except for a limited number of PARA's that came from the factory without the carrying handle cut. Some countries removed them, the British SAS was noted for removing them from L1A1's.
I think the author was edited badly or was typing late at night and got the carrying handle mixed up with the charging handle, as the L1A1 came standard with a folding handle that was usually seen only on Metric PARA rifles. Most Metric rifles have a fixed, or non folding, charging handle.
The Inch carrying handle is more robust than the Metric handle, having finger grooves and a larger diameter. It is also fixed, in that the handle itself does not rotate, just the assembly itself. Like Metric ones it folds against the right side of the receiver or can be rotated up to 180 degrees. In the upright position it can be used like the M-16 handle to carry the weapon, rotated all the way to the left it can be used to poke you in the stomach when you carry it. Most Metric handles are smaller in diameter, round, and rotate around the metal shaft they are mounted to. Of course there are innumerable variants in FALs, so they are variations in Metric handles.
Currently I don't use them on my rifle, although I can and do put them on occasionally.
I enjoyed the article. cameron Hopkins is usually a pretty good writer. I just thought the faux pas was funny.
SemiAutoSam
Banned
One slight correction.
in RED
Example of the FN 50.63 Note the rear sight is the wrong model The historacly correct rear sight for the FN 50.63 is the fixed position "Holland" sight.
Holland sight shown below.
in RED
Example of the FN 50.63 Note the rear sight is the wrong model The historacly correct rear sight for the FN 50.63 is the fixed position "Holland" sight.
Holland sight shown below.
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One slight correction.
in RED
Example of the FN 50.63 Note the rear sight is the wrong model The historacly correct rear sight for the FN 50.63 is the fixed position "Holland" sight.
Holland sight shown below.
What's the source for the quote? Although I'm not sure if it's germaine. In the article, the author stated that the FAL came with fixed and folding carrying handles. I've never seen nor heard of a fixed carrying handle for the FAL. I was only addressing that one glaring error. Although I do think the FAL's bolt release is better than the AR's. And I think the AR's is great.
All British, Australian, Canadian (C1), and Indian L1A1's came (come?) standard with a folding cocking handle. Some very early trials models had fixed ones, but the production models had folding ones that are the same, functionally, as the Metric folding charging handle. Some models made by other countries used folding handles- Argentina, for example, and the non-"Holland" style rear para sight. Brazil is another, my para kit is Brazilian and has the other para rear sight.
Unless I'm missing your point, which is possible.
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SemiAutoSam
Banned
The source for the Quote would be the book known as The FAL {bible) by Blake Stevens.
Can you show some examples of the Licenced variants of the FAL you speak of that has the Folding Cocking handle feature ?
I didn't see it in my book and haven't seen this feature on the Internet either on said licensed versions of the FAL.
Looks like the author of the article You speak of is Misinformed of more than one item his article is in error about.
My main point was that in the article (you provided no link to) stated that the folding cocking handle came on the paratrooper version of the FN FAL well this is only partly correct as it didn't come on all of the paratrooper versions.
I have a overwhelming preference for the FN FAL and having owned a Full Auto version of it in the past would be my choice overall for a SHTF Rifle in all respects.
Can you show some examples of the Licenced variants of the FAL you speak of that has the Folding Cocking handle feature ?
I didn't see it in my book and haven't seen this feature on the Internet either on said licensed versions of the FAL.
Looks like the author of the article You speak of is Misinformed of more than one item his article is in error about.
My main point was that in the article (you provided no link to) stated that the folding cocking handle came on the paratrooper version of the FN FAL well this is only partly correct as it didn't come on all of the paratrooper versions.
I have a overwhelming preference for the FN FAL and having owned a Full Auto version of it in the past would be my choice overall for a SHTF Rifle in all respects.
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(I realize I'm a bit late to this party.)
If the ammo wasn't impossible to come by the AS Val might be ideally suited for this kind of work, particularly in an urban environment. The rifle is select-fire, lightweight (~6.5 lb), compact (24" with stock folded), and has an integral suppressor. The subsonic 9x39mm round has limited range, but makes up for it with its armor-piercing capability.
A number of Russian troops were photographed with its sniper cousin, the VSS Vintorez, on their way into the Georgian port of Gori. I imagine it was pretty useful to have around after the official ceasefire.![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
If the ammo wasn't impossible to come by the AS Val might be ideally suited for this kind of work, particularly in an urban environment. The rifle is select-fire, lightweight (~6.5 lb), compact (24" with stock folded), and has an integral suppressor. The subsonic 9x39mm round has limited range, but makes up for it with its armor-piercing capability.
A number of Russian troops were photographed with its sniper cousin, the VSS Vintorez, on their way into the Georgian port of Gori. I imagine it was pretty useful to have around after the official ceasefire.
Tactically I would take the M1A .308 over any AR in .223/5.56 on any day. As a rifleman I would rather engage from a further position rather than have my adversary in the same theatre as I. It would essentially boil down to two skilled shooters and one lucky shot by either of us vs. two skilled shooters with one having the ability to demoralize and maintain supremacy outside of the theater into the theater. The latter takes it for me.
Besides after all is said and done, I can later go grab the ‘Trophy’ AR, for someone else in the squad.![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Besides after all is said and done, I can later go grab the ‘Trophy’ AR, for someone else in the squad.
