NICE! Where's the legal fund donation page? ![[thumbsup]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/044.gif "Thumbs Up [thumbsup]")
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Want a NEW Machinegun? The ATF may have just allowed you to make one!**Update Post 72
- Thread starter soloman02
- Start date
You can go the online route but for just a little more you have have a local attorney do it (if in NH or Maine). The benefit of that is you can ask questions and you can more easily setup the trust to ensure the MG can be easily passed on to an heir if you pass away. Not saying you can't with the online ones but it is easier when you can actually talk to an attorney about your specific situation.
warwickben
bubba Kalashnikov
Yeah with some thing like this I'd def go with a attorney lol . Don't get me wrong . .
Heck I'd pay up to 1k$ for a mg tax stamp.
That depends on what you mean by "a little more". Before using www.guntrustlawyer.com (basic trust, $200) I inquired with a MA attorney who specializes in firearms law. I was told it was $100 for the initial consultation and they absolutely refused to even ballpark a figure for me.
That is why I said NH and Maine. Bill Smyth does them in those two states for $200. http://www.smythlaw.net/
You guys in Mass have to find someone else locally. IIRC though, someone posted in the GB section about an attorney in Mass doing them for about the same price for NES members.
That phone call illustrates well the lawlessness of our bureaucratic agencies. Define terms to fit their agenda despite law, then when it turns out that definition hurts them in another unintended way, ignore the new definition. Basically, whatever they say goes, the law, even their own rules, be damned.
FROM AR15.com - 9/12/2014
Here's an FAQ put together by Undefined for the TL; DR crowd
TL;DR Version of what is happening (stolen from OP)
1. ATF ruled that a trust is not a person as defined by 18 U.S. Code § 921(a) and the Gun Control Act (GCA).
2. Since ATF holds that an unincorporated trust is not a “person” under the GCA, the prohibition on the transfer or possession of machineguns as defined by 18 U.S. Code § 921(a)(1) and 18 U.S. Code § 922(o) cannot apply to unincorporated trusts.
3. Numerous (See Footnote #1) trusts submitted Form 1 applications to build new machine guns.
4. ATF approved the applications and sent out stamps (See Footnote #2).
5. On or around 9/10/14, ATF began calling trusts (or, rather, Trustees) that received stamps and/or updating their online status from Approved to Disapproved. Those that were called were told they had to return the stamp. (See Footnote #3 for audio of one such call)
6. Attorneys are working on it now...
Footnotes:
1. Current estimates put the number of trusts that applied somewhere in the low hundreds. Unfortunately, there is no 100% accurate count that is publicly available.
2. Some stamps were received as early as the first week of August 2014. Others have not been received yet.
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s9GKoxnGcM
Does this mean if I have a trust I can get Form 1s approved to build machine guns?
No. BATFE is no longer sending out approvals. Your application will be rejected.
Should I submit a Form 1 right now?
No. The door is closed. BATFE is rejecting Form 1's for new machine guns now. It will not make a difference. (Note: If this changes, we'll let you know)
What should you do if you were one of the trustees that submitted a Form 1 and were approved?
Presto97sl summed it up pretty well (see below). I would add that you should contact NoloContendere via IM, as he is a rally point right now for coordinating and tracking efforts on this issue.
Originally Posted By Presto97sl:
Let me begin with I am an attorney.
Anyone who had one of these approved and then denied needs to do the following
1. Cut off any contact with the ATF directly regarding this issue until you have sought legal counsel.
2. Keep a copy of any information they mail to you, I would photo copy and hang onto everything.
3. Contact an attorney who specializes in this area of law.
4. DO NOT cash the check they are going to send you refunding your paid tax ( you may waive your rights by doing so).[/quote]
What can the rest of us do to help?
1. Keep the thread bumped.
2. Stand by.
Where can I send donations?
Nowhere, yet! There will be a time and place for that, but no one wants to start collecting money until we know how and where it will be spent. Plaintiffs are discussing options with attorneys right now. Attorneys are working on a plan right now. As soon as funding is needed, it will be requested (after getting Strykers approval). Until then, be patient.
Misc.
NOT ONE OF THE ONES THAT SUBMITTED A FORM 1 AND/OR GOT A STAMP.
If I left anything important out, please let me know.[/quote]
I'd like to add this from NoloContendere:
*****Here is what we want, in a particular order:
1) if you received an approval and subsequent to that approval manufactured And then had a disapproval.
2) if you received an approval and then were denied.
3) if you filed a form 1 and were denied.
Feel free to PM me which class you are in. Followed by paper or efile form and what state you are in. I don't want to go further than that on a public forum, but that's what we are trying to ascertain at the moment.******
Email him at [email protected]
If you haven't submitted a Form 1 and decide to do it now, it will not be approved, but all indications are you will have standing in an action against the ATF if your form is denied.
Here's an FAQ put together by Undefined for the TL; DR crowd
TL;DR Version of what is happening (stolen from OP)
1. ATF ruled that a trust is not a person as defined by 18 U.S. Code § 921(a) and the Gun Control Act (GCA).
2. Since ATF holds that an unincorporated trust is not a “person” under the GCA, the prohibition on the transfer or possession of machineguns as defined by 18 U.S. Code § 921(a)(1) and 18 U.S. Code § 922(o) cannot apply to unincorporated trusts.
3. Numerous (See Footnote #1) trusts submitted Form 1 applications to build new machine guns.
4. ATF approved the applications and sent out stamps (See Footnote #2).
5. On or around 9/10/14, ATF began calling trusts (or, rather, Trustees) that received stamps and/or updating their online status from Approved to Disapproved. Those that were called were told they had to return the stamp. (See Footnote #3 for audio of one such call)
6. Attorneys are working on it now...
Footnotes:
1. Current estimates put the number of trusts that applied somewhere in the low hundreds. Unfortunately, there is no 100% accurate count that is publicly available.
2. Some stamps were received as early as the first week of August 2014. Others have not been received yet.
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s9GKoxnGcM
Does this mean if I have a trust I can get Form 1s approved to build machine guns?
No. BATFE is no longer sending out approvals. Your application will be rejected.
Should I submit a Form 1 right now?
No. The door is closed. BATFE is rejecting Form 1's for new machine guns now. It will not make a difference. (Note: If this changes, we'll let you know)
What should you do if you were one of the trustees that submitted a Form 1 and were approved?
Presto97sl summed it up pretty well (see below). I would add that you should contact NoloContendere via IM, as he is a rally point right now for coordinating and tracking efforts on this issue.
Originally Posted By Presto97sl:
Let me begin with I am an attorney.
Anyone who had one of these approved and then denied needs to do the following
1. Cut off any contact with the ATF directly regarding this issue until you have sought legal counsel.
2. Keep a copy of any information they mail to you, I would photo copy and hang onto everything.
3. Contact an attorney who specializes in this area of law.
4. DO NOT cash the check they are going to send you refunding your paid tax ( you may waive your rights by doing so).[/quote]
What can the rest of us do to help?
1. Keep the thread bumped.
2. Stand by.
Where can I send donations?
Nowhere, yet! There will be a time and place for that, but no one wants to start collecting money until we know how and where it will be spent. Plaintiffs are discussing options with attorneys right now. Attorneys are working on a plan right now. As soon as funding is needed, it will be requested (after getting Strykers approval). Until then, be patient.
Misc.
NOT ONE OF THE ONES THAT SUBMITTED A FORM 1 AND/OR GOT A STAMP.
If I left anything important out, please let me know.[/quote]
I'd like to add this from NoloContendere:
*****Here is what we want, in a particular order:
1) if you received an approval and subsequent to that approval manufactured And then had a disapproval.
2) if you received an approval and then were denied.
3) if you filed a form 1 and were denied.
Feel free to PM me which class you are in. Followed by paper or efile form and what state you are in. I don't want to go further than that on a public forum, but that's what we are trying to ascertain at the moment.******
Email him at [email protected]
If you haven't submitted a Form 1 and decide to do it now, it will not be approved, but all indications are you will have standing in an action against the ATF if your form is denied.
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warwickben
bubba Kalashnikov
So we should all file form 1's ? 
DispositionMatrix
NES Member
I hope this has been disseminated FAR beyond Arfcom and NES.
I guess we will find out. I'm not sure about the rest of NES, but I haven't got my time traveling machine up and running yet so am not sure of the status of this information on the 14th, two days from now.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Man, wouldn't it be nice if this actually worked..... It really could work if you get a judge who looks at exactly how everything is worded and tells the ATF to honor the stamps that were issued to trusts. Good luck doing that. Maybe we can start a petition to have a southern good ol boy judge hear the case?
warwickben
bubba Kalashnikov
A gif posted in the arfcom thread fits here:
I so would if I had the cash for a court case .
If you haven't submitted a Form 1 and decide to do it now, it will not be approved, but all indications are you will have standing in an action against the ATF if your form is denied.
DispositionMatrix
NES Member
So we should all file form 1's ?
Looks like it won't work.
The tax stamp is currency and property. I do hope he fights that...
Imagine the implications if they could arbitrarily revoke any $20 you had in your pocket? Or other form 4 stamps?
Property cannot be taken without due process.
Imagine the implications if they could arbitrarily revoke any $20 you had in your pocket? Or other form 4 stamps?
Property cannot be taken without due process.
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Or we could repeal the NFA, GCA, 1986, etc. I would actually re-purchase cable just to watch the news if that happened. -and you'd be rich if you bought stock in popcorn factories. All gains from popcorn shares could balance any losses on Form-4 purchases.
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All your stamps are berong to US !!!!
Golddiggie
NES Member
Are they refunding the fee paid by those who submitted the form 1's?? If they don't do a full refund, then **** them. ![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
![[mg]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/036.gif "Machine Gun [mg]")
See above, it is property and currency once possessed, revocation is a taking, taking requires judicial review. I am sure they believe otherwise, but that is why due process exists. To restrain agencies that believe otherwise and ensure that the people are secure in their persons and effects.
DispositionMatrix
NES Member
"They" can just have the police come and steal it. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/
DarthRevan
NES Member
GOD I WISH I HAD SPENT THE MONEY ON A TRUST AND STAMP
How did I miss this? I'm constantly reading these threads.
How did I miss this? I'm constantly reading these threads.
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You mean like how they revoked the redeemability of silver certificated for bullion in 1968?
In theory, maybe. In practice, not even close.
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A friend of mine sold his PNG carry permit for $30,000 AUS ($28K USD) back in 2007, but had to throw in a Glock to sweeten the deal. He tells me the going rate is now $50,000.
He didn't actually sell his permit (he still has the expired one - scan in another thread); he just sold his "slot" in the permit system that permits no new entries, but allows new permit holders to come in as others leave vacancies.
Quiet
Banned
It's a briliant plan, when you get right down to it, similar to the "ban" on new machine guns in the US.
The ANTIs get a new ally in the fight to keep the ban/plan in place -- the rich people who want to protect their "investment value" that the current system creates. Ain't no way that the gun owner in PNG who spends $50,000 for his permit is going to want the permit system opened back up.
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And, once the current generation of people who got their permits before the "market system" was put in place dies off, all carry permits will be in the hands of rich people (with, perhaps, a small number inherited by persons of modest means).
The Canadians, eh? have a curious system for prohibited but grandfathered weapons (full auto; 25cal handguns; handguns with < 105mm bbls) - in order to legally possess, it must be a grandfathered weapon and a grandfathered owner - but grandfathered owners are free to trade among themselves. Inside on generation, one person will (by definition) have all the legal machine guns and another (or same) will have all the prohibited caliber/bbl length handguns.
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Depends on whether they are shooters or collectors. I'd bet that most shooters would rather be able to easily get new machine guns than retain the value in their current guns, and for some collectors, it wouldn't matter too much if the Hughes Amendment was repealed. There are only as many WWI and WWII era Thompsons out there now as there ever will be, so you wouldn't expect the value of those to drop much.
What is a PNG permit?
