Walther PPS MA LEGAL!!!! YAAAAAAAAYYYY

dwarven1 said:
Just out of curiosity, anyone know how the PPS compares against the Kahr PM9? Anyone shot both of them? (Obviously that's directed to our neighbors in Free America).
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I've only shot a PM9 but I played around with a PPS in a shop for a fair bit of time. I'll compare and contrast as best I can:

- Both are about the same thickness.
- The PPS is significantly larger in terms of length and height and is about the same size as a Glock 26 in these dimensions. The PM9 is pocketable for most people. The PPS isn't really. The PPS is bigger than it looks in pictures.
- The PPS has a typical Walther mag release (lever surrounding the bottom of the trigger guard) whereas the PM9 has a normal mag release.
- Both have pretty smooth triggers for striker fired guns but the PPS trigger felt better as I recall. Neither were MA triggers obviously.
- In terms of build quality, I might give a slight edge to the Walther.

Personally, I'd get the Kahr. If you search around on Gunblast.com, he has some comparison pictures in either the PPS or PM9 review.
 
Thanks for that comparison, PaulD. I was looking at getting the PM9 in a couple of months but I was waiting for the PPS to come out. I know a couple people who have the PM9 and they love it.
 
JonJ said:
Thanks for that comparison, PaulD. I was looking at getting the PM9 in a couple of months but I was waiting for the PPS to come out. I know a couple people who have the PM9 and they love it.
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I really like my PM9. I do get a bit nervous about it because of various web stories I've read about problems with them but mine has never had a ftf. Of course, there are stories on many boards about PPS problems also.
 
dwarven1 said:
Problems? What kind of problems have folks had with the PM9?
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I've heard that some of them have teething problems requiring factory
intervention.... but I wouldn't worry about it.

I am really kicking myself for getting rid of my MK9... that was a nice little
gun.. Not quite pocket carry material but with a good IWB would be pretty
damned hard for anyone to detect that.

-Mike
 
I've had an opportunity to spend some time with a Walther PPS. I really like Walthers, and own a P99, a P99 compact (both in 9mm), and a P22. I had also bought a Milt Sparks VM2 holster for a PPS assuming the gun would be available at some point before the 9-month wait for the holster was over, so I has able to check out how the PPS felt as a carry gun.

Honestly, the PPS didn't live up to my high expectations. The ergonomics suck compared to my P99s, but perhaps that isn't a fair comparison since the ergonomics of the P99 are better than any other pistol I've ever handled. It feels, ummmm, slabby. I actually found it less comfortable to carry than my P99c. It shot fine, was more accurate than I am, cycled perfectly with a few different types of 9mm ammo, and the trigger was OK, but not anywhere near as nice as my P99, particularly in single-action (as you would expect). The reset was horrible - really long and gritty feeling. Walther also abandoned the P99/P22 plastic takedown lever and replaced it with a small, serrated metal button on either side of the frame. It was actually easier to use and field strip than the P99, but the button protruded enough from the frame that it hung up on a seam of stitches inside the VM2 holster - actually prevented the gun from being drawn from the holster. It's an easy fix - just break in the holster and use a Dremel to chamfer the rear side of the take-down button, followed by a dab of cold blue.

I'm still going to own one, but I'm not sure it will replace my P99c as my every day carry gun.
 
dwarven1 said:
Problems? What kind of problems have folks had with the PM9?

Oh, and a +1 to you for the comparison. Thanks.
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You're welcome on the comparison.

If you google "Kahr PM9", you'll find lots of info but here's a pertinent thread on THR:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=113174&page=2

Just from my own googling, it seems that the PM40 has more problems than the PM9. This could be that it's too big a round for the same design, or more likely, it's the shooter. These guns are pretty easy to limp wrist due to the size. To further back this up, the Mk series seems to have less problems but it weighs more so, once again, limp wristing is less likely.

If you want to go to MRA sometime, you're welcome to try mine. Otherwise, I'll be at a member shoot sometime in the spring and you can try it then.
 
drgrant said:
I've heard that some of them have teething problems requiring factory
intervention.... but I wouldn't worry about it.

I am really kicking myself for getting rid of my MK9... that was a nice little
gun.. Not quite pocket carry material but with a good IWB would be pretty
damned hard for anyone to detect that.

-Mike
Click to expand...

I need to get a good, tuckable IWB holster for mine. I'll probably get a Comp Tac. As you said, it'd be really hard to detect and would be very comfortable.
 
drgrant said:
I've heard that some of them have teething problems requiring factory intervention.... but I wouldn't worry about it.
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Looking on the Kahr website yields this article from Shooting Times, where the author has some chambering problems with the first round. According to the article, the factory told him it'd go away after 500 rounds when the gun broke in since it was machined to such tight tolerances, and he says that it did.
 
dwarven1 said:
Looking on the Kahr website yields this article from Shooting Times, where the author has some chambering problems with the first round. According to the article, the factory told him it'd go away after 500 rounds when the gun broke in since it was machined to such tight tolerances, and he says that it did.
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The manual on mine specified a 200 round break in. I used some 147 grain rounds to do it and it's been fine since. In fact, it only had a couple of ftf's during the breakin.
 
BillO said:
WTF? Why not ONE list? At least there IS an EOPS list ! Just wishful thinking, but you would think the AG might want want to talk to the Office of Public Safety; oh gee, there's a novice idea.
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Take the following as "old info" FWIW. According to Chief Ron Glidden (Chmn of the GCAB who gives initial approval for the EOPS List then passes it on to the Sec. of Public Safety for final approval), a few years ago . . . Ron told me that they extended the olive branch to the AG (Reilly at that time) to work with GCAB to come up with a real list of approved guns (meets both EOPS and AG requirements). Ron said that the AG refused to participate. Players may have changed, but I doubt that the situation has changed any. [thinking]

drgrant said:
Well, it is if you like reading legal humor. 940 CMR 16 means whatever the AG wants it to mean at any given time, more or less. You can design a handgun to meet these so called "standards" and the AG can still say "fail" if she wants to.

That, frankly, is the worst part about this compliance crap- manufacturers have to make, at best, on a good day, a wild ass guess at what bogus terms like "series of multiple motions" and weasel terms like "average 5 year old" (Look at 16.05 for this crap... )


-Mike
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This the reason that most mfrs have "kissed off" MA and won't submit anything in MA. They would have no problem with the EOPS requirements (essentially the same as CA), but the uncertainty of the AG regs kick their risk assessment folks in the nuts and thus, they say "hell, no!" to MA.
 
LenS said:
Take the following as "old info" FWIW. According to Chief Ron Glidden (Chmn of the GCAB who gives initial approval for the EOPS List then passes it on to the Sec. of Public Safety for final approval), a few years ago . . . Ron told me that they extended the olive branch to the AG (Reilly at that time) to work with GCAB to come up with a real list of approved guns (meets both EOPS and AG requirements). Ron said that the AG refused to participate. Players may have changed, but I doubt that the situation has changed any. [thinking]



This the reason that most mfrs have "kissed off" MA and won't submit anything in MA. They would have no problem with the EOPS requirements (essentially the same as CA), but the uncertainty of the AG regs kick their risk assessment folks in the nuts and thus, they say "hell, no!" to MA.
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Yeah, I'm sure there would be many more guns on the EOPS list if it weren't for the AG BS. They probably figure why bother at all if the second step is such a PITA.
 
A quick follow up. FWIW, I emailed WaltherUSA about mass compliance of the PPS.. To see if there was any news or timeline. Here is what I just received back


From: Gazda, paul [mailto:p[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:03 PM
Subject: RE: pps in mass?


It does not meet the requirements at this time, I have not heard of any plans to alter the gun for Mass.
 
JonJ said:
Maybe, maybe not. M&P .45s were sold for a few days before being pulled.
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Put a deposit on one and Carl will call you as soon as it comes in. If they then pull them off the shelf a week later, your new purchase just appreciated in value. [cheers]
 
Ripach said:
Your friend needs to find a new distributor, plenty of MA ffl's stock non compliant guns for LEO and out of state sales.
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I believe there are restrictions to what MA dealers can do *inside* MA with out-of-staters. Every FFL that I know who sells to non Ma**h***s has a location outside of MA (Pelham, AG, etc). I would not be surprised if there is a restriction on MA dealers with regards to their MA licenses that is not spelled out in law specifically. It could be as simple as a restriction that no MA dealer is allowed to sell to someone without a resident FID or LTC.
 
JonJ said:
And when Carl calls and asks you to return it?
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Legally, he can only ask. Of course, if Carl were going to get in trouble, I'd probably return it.

There were M&P45s sold in MA during the brief open season on them. I don't know if they were requested to be returned but many weren't.
 
JonJ said:
And when Carl calls and asks you to return it?
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this happened to me a another dealer.. I was told by the dealer that I, the buyer, was in for a whole worl of legal hurt if I did not return the gun (it was a cz-75). Said I'd be in for fines, jail time, etc. etc.
Not knowing any better I returned the gun.

What pissed me off was the dealer was such an A-hole about it, and threatened me. Had he just said, oops! I F'd up and sold that gun by mistake. Could you please return it and I will make it up to you? I would have done so gladly and I'd still be a customer.. As such, I have not bought from them since..
 
seanc said:
this happened to me a another dealer.. I was told by the dealer that I, the buyer, was in for a whole worl of legal hurt if I did not return the gun (it was a cz-75). Said I'd be in for fines, jail time, etc. etc.
Not knowing any better I returned the gun.

What pissed me off was the dealer was such an A-hole about it, and threatened me. Had he just said, oops! I F'd up and sold that gun by mistake. Could you please return it and I will make it up to you? I would have done so gladly and I'd still be a customer.. As such, I have not bought from them since..
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He was an even bigger douche because, legally, he was wrong.
 
PaulD said:
He was an even bigger douche because, legally, he was wrong.
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I suspect he knew that and was only looking out for himself when he threatened the buyer. He probably thought, or was told, that if he got everything back, he wouldn't have any issues.
 
PaulD said:
He was an even bigger douche because, legally, he was wrong.
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Yup. Had I known then what I know now... Oh well. But I did not know all of the ins and outs and he cowed me into "doing the right thing". However, in this case that was "doing the right thing" for him, not me.

Had the dealer just been nice about it, I would have gladly, returned it. Had I known the ins and outs, and he came at me that way, I would have just told him to pund sand, I love the CZ and hung up on him.

And, I know that Carl is a 100% stand up guy and if an issue like this ever happened, he would jump through hoops to make it right and make sure you left a happy customer...
 
Does anybody have a pointer to the text of the AG regulations as to what is legal and what is not - I am wondering what the exact wording of their regs around buying pistols thru a dealer is.

I know - I'm lazy, I am trying to find it now but I thought somebody might know exactly where to look.
 
calsdad said:
Does anybody have a pointer to the text of the AG regulations as to what is legal and what is not - I am wondering what the exact wording of their regs around buying pistols thru a dealer is.

I know - I'm lazy, I am trying to find it now but I thought somebody might know exactly where to look.
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http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=cagoter...t&f=government_Regulations_940CMR16&csid=Cago

You can find it by googling: massachusetts attorney general handgun regulations, but it isn't the top result.
 
When the AG came down on Glock, the dealers were told to retrieve them "or else" ($5K civil fine/gun to dealer only). I remember talking with Carl about it and telling him that I wouldn't have returned it.

Well, after the BassPro fiasco, upon reflection I realized that I was very wrong wrt Carl and would truly never jeopardize him or his business that way. He is such a stand-up guy that I indeed would return anything requested and NOT demand anything but my money back.

HOWEVER, if it was BassPro/NET or some lesser dealer, I would indeed tell them to pound sand and have a nice day. From what I saw at BassPro (the last Glock return) the guy got screwed, wasted FOUR HOURS hounding them to do something (after they had the gun back at Customer Service) . . . after they promised that they would "take care of him" . . . finally they gave him a $50.00 gift certificate (that saved them a $5000 fine!)!
 

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