Vaccine industry about to recruit gun-toting police to enforce mandatory medical interventions

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Varmint

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It's disturbing how you have no problem giving up other peoples rights for the myth of safety
My cousin's first child died from SIDS the night she received her first set of vaccines in the mid to late 70's. They fought for 20 years before the CDC finally admitted that in a small percentage of children that could happen. If they had known the risks they could have made a better decision. Either wait longer before getting the infant shots, or stay up all night and keep an eye on her.
That’s terrible. My older son slept like I’d never seen him sleep, after getting vaccinated.
 

drgrant

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My son had a extremely bad reaction to a vaccine.

Since then we started doing our research.

I’ll tell you this.

I had about 6 vaccines as a child.

Now my 2 yo NEEDS 74 vaccines?

I don’t think so.
For what it's worth I think that there are problems with some vaccines and perhaps numerous unnecessary ones.... the problem is that the vaxxer "vaccines cause autism" type retards end up contaminating the national discussion space..... much like the same way that black lives matter ends up contaminating legitimate discussions about police brutality when they start saying that thugs are police brutality victims. The 110% morons end up taking center stage, and end depriving the issue of legitimate attention...

-Mike
 

mibro

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It's disturbing how you have no problem giving up other peoples rights for the myth of safety
My cousin's first child died from SIDS the night she received her first set of vaccines in the mid to late 70's. They fought for 20 years before the CDC finally admitted that in a small percentage of children that could happen. If they had known the risks they could have made a better decision. Either wait longer before getting the infant shots, or stay up all night and keep an eye on her.
Good grief, look at how many anecdotes this thread has produced. I know a man whose healthy 30-ish girlfriend died in her sleep within a couple of days of getting the swine flu vaccine. No way to prove a connection, no data is collected, all you have is suspicion.

The worst part of this is I believe many medical professionals know there is harm being caused, they've just convinced themselves the cost to a few families is justified in service of the greater good.
 
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Not sure if serious, but I think there may be something to the cumulative effect of all of the above, and a few others like genetically engineered food. One of the interesting points that was brought up was that occurrence is higher in middle class homes. In the US, even poor kids get vaccinated. In the future we will probably discover that Flintstone vitamins or fluoride treatments are bad.





I did not know about the special courts.
Actually, the government just came out in the last few weeks and admitted that Floride levels in water actually are bad for you and not worth the extensive damage to help your teeth. Brush and spit. And stop with the fluoridated water. It was another so called “conspiracy theory” that became reality.

ETA: sorry several years ago. Just one article quickly googled. There are lots more.

US Government Admits Americans Have Been Overdosed on Fluoride
 

Live-a-Little

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Looks to me like Mass requires 5 vaccines. Not sure where the high number comes from.
I think he might have been referring to this. His numbers still are a bit high according to this chart, but it is still a huge increase from what I was given as a kid. BTW this chart was sent to me from a very well educated and respected friend. I have no idea where he got it, but i am sure a quick internet search could probably find it.

Edit: Can be found at Learn The Risk. It says it at the bottom of the chart

A07F5519-F431-4101-BE93-FC6054D7F53C.jpeg
 

Picton

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Yeah. No. That’s propaganda. Realize, for example, that they’re counting annual flu shots, which aren’t required.

My kid’s physical from last week is right in front of me. He’s got all the required vaccines and then some, and only fifteen doses total.
 

Squire

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the cost to a few families is justified in service of the greater good.
This is the fundamental tenant of Utilitarianism -- the most good for the most people, which is at odds with Individualism.
 
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mibro

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Yeah. No. That’s propaganda. Realize, for example, that they’re counting annual flu shots, which aren’t required.

My kid’s physical from last week is right in front of me. He’s got all the required vaccines and then some, and only fifteen doses total.
Here's the link to the actual info (pdf download): Massachusetts School Immunization Requirements 2018-2019

Summary:
Preschool - 13 doses
Kindergarten thru 6th grade - 16 doses
Grades 7 to 12 - 13 doses
College - 9 doses
 

mibro

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This thread is like watching a train wreck, you know it's going to be ugly, but you can't turn away.
Funny, I thought it has been a lot more civilized than in the past. More people are open to the idea we should at least be looking at the topic.
 
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Funny, I thought it has been a lot more civilized than in the past. More people are open to the idea we should at least be looking at the topic.
The anti-vax movement is similar to climate change. Yes, we can all agree the climate is changing, but why is the question. Yes, there are a lot of kids with disorders, but why? The blanket blaming of vaccines will lead to diseases coming back. We've lived for 3 generations now without polio, we simply don't have collective memory of it. The same with a lot of things that are on the verge of coming back. As someone said, doing a proper study would almost be malfeasance, to deny people vaccines they want, just to prove they work.

I vaccinated my kids, maybe I just got lucky, who knows.
 
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Big brother looking out for so much they might shoot us to make sure we are safe, LOL. I never hear about this when vaccines are being to near being a forced requirement. We have what is known as "Herd Immunity" depending on the disease, if 80 to 90% of us are vaccinated the disease wont spread
 
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I have 0 trust of the CDC and our federal gov't. If these vaccines were just dead viruses, I'd be pro vaccine. The problem is that they're not dead viruses. They're putting all sorts of other junk into them which is causing autism. Did you know they have special vaccine courts to try people who have been debilitated by vaccines? If you go to a special vaccine court, you're guaranteed to lose. Why can't these vaccine cases be tried in normal court rooms? Because they don't want them to be tried on a level playing field.
True. For example, TB spores can survive many years dormant and still be viable and deadly. Think of them as the land mines and other UXO that is still killing innocents decades after conflicts have ended.
 
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Big brother looking out for so much they might shoot us to make sure we are safe, LOL. I never hear about this when vaccines are being to near being a forced requirement. We have what is known as "Herd Immunity" depending on the disease, if 80 to 90% of us are vaccinated the disease wont spread
Herd? Scary term. Sheep and cows are herded all right.....straight to the slaughterhouse!
 

hminsky

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Good grief, look at how many anecdotes this thread has produced. I know a man whose healthy 30-ish girlfriend died in her sleep within a couple of days of getting the swine flu vaccine. No way to prove a connection, no data is collected, all you have is suspicion.

The worst part of this is I believe many medical professionals know there is harm being caused, they've just convinced themselves the cost to a few families is justified in service of the greater good.
Good grief, how can you talk about risk of vaccine without talking about this risk of the diseases they prevent?

Let's take Diptheria.

Diphtheria once was a major cause of illness and death among children. The United States recorded 206,000 cases of diphtheria in 1921, resulting in 15,520 deaths. Starting in the 1920s, diphtheria rates dropped quickly due to the widespread use of vaccines. Between 2004 and 2017, state health departments reported 2 cases of diphtheria in the United States.

The case-fatality rate for diphtheria has changed very little during the last 50 years. The overall case-fatality rate for diphtheria is 5%–10%, with higher death rates (up to 20%) among persons younger than 5 and older than 40 years of age. Before there was treatment for diphtheria, the disease was fatal in up to half of cases.


Note, the population in the US in 1921 was under one third of what it is today, so you'd; If the anti-vaccine people had their way, we would be talking about 50,000 preventable deaths from this one preventable disease alone.

This is a horrible disease. It's unconscionable to discuss the (mostly bogus) risks from vaccines without also discussing in detail what kind of disease mortality and morbidity they are preventing.
 

mibro

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Good grief, how can you talk about risk of vaccine without talking about this risk of the diseases they prevent?

Let's take Diptheria.

Diphtheria once was a major cause of illness and death among children. The United States recorded 206,000 cases of diphtheria in 1921, resulting in 15,520 deaths. Starting in the 1920s, diphtheria rates dropped quickly due to the widespread use of vaccines. Between 2004 and 2017, state health departments reported 2 cases of diphtheria in the United States.

The case-fatality rate for diphtheria has changed very little during the last 50 years. The overall case-fatality rate for diphtheria is 5%–10%, with higher death rates (up to 20%) among persons younger than 5 and older than 40 years of age. Before there was treatment for diphtheria, the disease was fatal in up to half of cases.


Note, the population in the US in 1921 was under one third of what it is today, so you'd; If the anti-vaccine people had their way, we would be talking about 50,000 preventable deaths from this one preventable disease alone.

This is a horrible disease. It's unconscionable to discuss the (mostly bogus) risks from vaccines without also discussing in detail what kind of disease mortality and morbidity they are preventing.
Yes, I agree with you. All I want is open discussion and access to information. I hate being treated like a mushroom. In so many areas TPTB seem to think the general public just can't handle the truth.
 

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They don't.

In America you have the right to be an idiot -- but I have no issue with your unvaccinated kids not getting to go to public school where immunocompromised children (by that I mean immunocompromised for reasons other than having dumb parents) are present.

I predict this thread will deliver.
Absolutely true. Don't want to get your kids the measles vaccine......fine......but I want ZERO tax dollars spent on the medical bills when that kid gets the measles. Big outbreak in Oregon right now.......let the parent pay out of pocket for their own stupidity.
 

Mike-Mike

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For what it's worth I think that there are problems with some vaccines and perhaps numerous unnecessary ones.... the problem is that the vaxxer "vaccines cause autism" type retards end up contaminating the national discussion space..... much like the same way that black lives matter ends up contaminating legitimate discussions about police brutality when they start saying that thugs are police brutality victims. The 110% morons end up taking center stage, and end depriving the issue of legitimate attention...

-Mike
Yes there are crazies on both sides.

I think the discussion is good and educational. Try asking your kids pedi for the vaxine insert and question them on the risk. They literally, use scare tactics and tell you that your kid can die from the chicken pox.

Also if you dare to question that directly injecting known neurotoxins into a little baby might have a tiny effect on brain development or contribute to a neurological disorder you are dismissed as crazy.

Isn’t that the definition of neurotoxins?
 

new guy

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Sadly we’ve moved beyond the rational discourse stages of the American social experience.
 
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For what it's worth I think that there are problems with some vaccines and perhaps numerous unnecessary ones.... the problem is that the vaxxer "vaccines cause autism" type retards end up contaminating the national discussion space..... much like the same way that black lives matter ends up contaminating legitimate discussions about police brutality when they start saying that thugs are police brutality victims. The 110% morons end up taking center stage, and end depriving the issue of legitimate attention...

-Mike
Mike, this is where you cross the line. You make insulting statements, based on false assumptions. On one side we have a lot of evidence these products are causing autism. On the other side there is literally zero proof these products do not cause autism. I would love for you to call the parent of a severely autistic, vaccine injured kid a retard or a moron to the parents face.
 

Varmint

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Good grief, look at how many anecdotes this thread has produced. I know a man whose healthy 30-ish girlfriend died in her sleep within a couple of days of getting the swine flu vaccine. No way to prove a connection, no data is collected, all you have is suspicion.

The worst part of this is I believe many medical professionals know there is harm being caused, they've just convinced themselves the cost to a few families is justified in service of the greater good.
I feel like most doctors just won't believe something they don't understand. So if there is no paper showing a connection between X vaccine and SIDS or instant death, they say it's not related. I don't think it's intentional misleading. I trust our pediatricians, they're great doctors.
 
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Varmint

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Absolutely true. Don't want to get your kids the measles vaccine......fine......but I want ZERO tax dollars spent on the medical bills when that kid gets the measles. Big outbreak in Oregon right now.......let the parent pay out of pocket for their own stupidity.
It's not like your tax dollars will otherwise be spent on something useful. Even a lot of military spending gets spent on crap that doesn't work. B2 bombers that become visible when it rains. How many billions did they spend to convert the nuke-only B2 back to carrying conventional weapons? Meanwhile we sent our troops into Iraq without body armor driving unarmored Humvees.
 

Varmint

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What’s crazy is how many people in this thread know someone that was vaccine injured or dead yet we don’t know that many people who died from the measles (even before the vaccine).
I don't know anyone, but I did get a flu 2 days after the flu vaccine this year (tests were negative for flu of course - but the body doesn't know it's not a live flu virus).

But do I know it was the vaccine for sure? No. It could be it weakens your immune system and you catch something else.
 
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By definition, a society will subjugate the rights of the individual vs. the good of the group. The question is how much. And who makes that decision.

So if all of a sudden, we had an ebola outbreak, and there was an effective ebola vaccine, how many anti vaxxers would there be? I predict very few, as the consequence of not having the vax is very high probability of horrible death. And I think society (RE: pols making the laws) would make this mandatory for everyone anyway.

Many of the major vaccines are highly effective, think smallpox, polio, etc. Some can't be at that level, like influenza, as the virus changes. Is anything 100%? I don't know, I am not an epidemiologist, but even assuming something is 95%, and the consequences of not having it, like getting polio, wouldn't you want to try to wipe this out by having mandatory vaccines for it?
 
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By definition, a society will subjugate the rights of the individual vs. the good of the group. The question is how much. And who makes that decision.

So if all of a sudden, we had an ebola outbreak, and there was an effective ebola vaccine, how many anti vaxxers would there be? I predict very few, as the consequence of not having the vax is very high probability of horrible death. And I think society (RE: pols making the laws) would make this mandatory for everyone anyway.

Many of the major vaccines are highly effective, think smallpox, polio, etc. Some can't be at that level, like influenza, as the virus changes. Is anything 100%? I don't know, I am not an epidemiologist, but even assuming something is 95%, and the consequences of not having it, like getting polio, wouldn't you want to try to wipe this out by having mandatory vaccines for it?
Somewhat ironic seeing people on a gun forum asking the government to deprive them of their individual rights.
 
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Autism has and is spiking at an alarming rate. I’m open to any idea as to why. But it sure does seem like the rise of the vaccine schedule from the 70s to now is quite correlated to the numbers kids diagnosed with autism.
One of the big problems in analyzing the rise in diagnoses of autism is that the definition of "autistic spectrum disorder" has been enormously expanded over the last 25 or so years. Once upon a time it meant kids who were seriously mentally impaired, or kids who had to live in padded rooms because they spent so much time just bashing their heads against the walls. Today it can also mean kids who think in unusual ways, or kids who grok social rules a little slower than average. Just as some folks distrust the government and the CDC, I'm of the firm opinion that they who decide such things are determined to keep expanding the definition of "mental disorder" until it means "anyone who doesn't match our definition of normal." (IE, young boys and the overdiagnosis of ADD/ADHD.) So I don't trust the "increased rates of autism" that these anti-vaccine arguments are based on.

All I want is open discussion and access to information. I hate being treated like a mushroom.
Agreed, absolutely. I try to be an informed consumer too. But I often have trouble because the situation is so damn complicated. Take the flu vaccine. Yeah, you can have the vaccine and still get the flu. Why? Well, maybe the vaccine didn't work... or maybe you caught a strain of flu that the vaccine wasn't intended to protect against. The annual flu vaccine is designed to protect against the three strains of flu that doctors believe will be most common that year - three, out of dozens of existing strains. So if you get the vaccine and then get the flu, it doesn't mean the vaccine is a scam; it's probably because you caught a strain that the vaccine didn't protect against.

[shrug] I understand the theory behind vaccination, I know "herd immunity" is a real thing, and I flatly don't believe that any ethical doctor would be a part of any program they knew or even strongly suspected was hurting a lot of their patients to no good effect. I've also looked at the arguments against vaccines, and found them to be riddled with flaws. So I trust the vaccines and believe they're a good thing. What more is there that I can say?
 

Prepper

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By definition, a society will subjugate the rights of the individual vs. the good of the group. The question is how much. And who makes that decision.

So if all of a sudden, we had an ebola outbreak, and there was an effective ebola vaccine, how many anti vaxxers would there be? I predict very few, as the consequence of not having the vax is very high probability of horrible death. And I think society (RE: pols making the laws) would make this mandatory for everyone anyway.

Many of the major vaccines are highly effective, think smallpox, polio, etc. Some can't be at that level, like influenza, as the virus changes. Is anything 100%? I don't know, I am not an epidemiologist, but even assuming something is 95%, and the consequences of not having it, like getting polio, wouldn't you want to try to wipe this out by having mandatory vaccines for it?
Like pretty much anything, different options have different trade-offs associated with them, and people need to do a proper analysis of all the variables to come to what's hopefully the best solution. All vaccines have risk; don't tell me they don't because that's simply factually incorrect. And, all diseases have a risk. Problem is, not all vaccine risk is known so it is hard to know for sure how much risk there really is. If you bring your child for a vaccination and on the way home he starts foaming at the mouth and flopping around, then is nonfunctional for the rest of his life, no one enters that into a database of adverse events for the vaccine. They're just like "Oh well, I guess it is a mystery, sucks to be you".

Stuff like tetanus is very nasty and it is probably a good idea to get a vaccination for that. I actually know someone who died from it, although granted it was in the Philippines, but it exists here too. But then they tell me I really need to get shit like HPV and flu vaccines... no thanks. I'm not getting HPV. They don't even have any studies that show a compelling case for flu vaccines working well at all... maybe it reduces your odds slightly, and that's not worth it at all to me. If I get the flu, I'll just fight it off.
 

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The anti-vax movement is similar to climate change. Yes, we can all agree the climate is changing, but why is the question. Yes, there are a lot of kids with disorders, but why? The blanket blaming of vaccines will lead to diseases coming back. We've lived for 3 generations now without polio, we simply don't have collective memory of it. The same with a lot of things that are on the verge of coming back. As someone said, doing a proper study would almost be malfeasance, to deny people vaccines they want, just to prove they work.

I vaccinated my kids, maybe I just got lucky, who knows.
I would agree with you except there are so many people who have had a normal child become non verbal within a day or two of a vaccine. WHo knows why some kids seem to be fine and others are not. Is it the vaccine? A preservative in the vaccine? Was it stored improperly? In the caseof my cousin I was thinking you don't hear much about SIDS anymore. It was a big deal in the news for a while years ago. If it was med related did they figure it out, fix the problem and keep it quiet? Who knows for sure.

Good grief, how can you talk about risk of vaccine without talking about this risk of the diseases they prevent?

Let's take Diptheria.

Diphtheria once was a major cause of illness and death among children. The United States recorded 206,000 cases of diphtheria in 1921, resulting in 15,520 deaths. Starting in the 1920s, diphtheria rates dropped quickly due to the widespread use of vaccines. Between 2004 and 2017, state health departments reported 2 cases of diphtheria in the United States.

This is a horrible disease. It's unconscionable to discuss the (mostly bogus) risks from vaccines without also discussing in detail what kind of disease mortality and morbidity they are preventing.
Yes, Let's take Diphtheria as an example. We had a discussion on that in pathology class. Diphtheria was largely spread via unpasteurized milk in the past. Along with pasteurization,sanitary conditions have greatly improved in the water and food supply. Did the vaccine help? Probably, but you can't say it was the vaccine alone that solved the problem which brings me to the next issue.....

Absolutely true. Don't want to get your kids the measles vaccine......fine......but I want ZERO tax dollars spent on the medical bills when that kid gets the measles. Big outbreak in Oregon right now.......let the parent pay out of pocket for their own stupidity.
A lot of these outbreaks can be traced to immigrants illegal or otherwise. As far as I know they are not required to get vaccinated before entering the country. They bring whatever third world diseases they are carrying. You would think that would be an issue but there is no money to be made getting them their shots. It's probably not little Timmy down the street with his earthy crunchy parents causing an outbreak.
 
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