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Vaccine industry about to recruit gun-toting police to enforce mandatory medical interventions
- Thread starter Reptile
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Oh, dear lord.
At this point, y'all are just arguing to hear yourself argue. Want vaccines? Go get vaccines. Don't want vaccines? Don't get vaccines. Either way, cowboy up and accept the consequences of your decision, including (but not limited to)
...putting aluminum in your body
...catching rubella
...not being allowed in the public schools
...giving yourself a li'l flu
...or whatever else. We're big boys and girls. Our decisions have consequences. At this point, nobody is changing anybody else's minds.
At this point, y'all are just arguing to hear yourself argue. Want vaccines? Go get vaccines. Don't want vaccines? Don't get vaccines. Either way, cowboy up and accept the consequences of your decision, including (but not limited to)
...putting aluminum in your body
...catching rubella
...not being allowed in the public schools
...giving yourself a li'l flu
...or whatever else. We're big boys and girls. Our decisions have consequences. At this point, nobody is changing anybody else's minds.
not new guy
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They won’t.
What issue better represents the larger ongoing war between collectivism and individualism? This is a fight on both principle and substance. I think the collectivists are going to win this one though. The precedent is in their favor, and your average American doesn’t give a shit about liberty enough to recognize when it’s being taken from them.
What issue better represents the larger ongoing war between collectivism and individualism? This is a fight on both principle and substance. I think the collectivists are going to win this one though. The precedent is in their favor, and your average American doesn’t give a shit about liberty enough to recognize when it’s being taken from them.
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pastera
NES Member
The fact that autism wasn't entered into the DSM until 1994 isn't opinion.
The facts in the link I posted (#133) aren't opinion.
My opinion is that you are a willfully ignorant ideologue that simply doesn't want to acknowledge any evidence dispositive of your position.
Your switch from MMR to DTP is evidence of an ideological, not scientific, position - like I said before - it's your personal windmill...
Pastera, looked back at your post...there is zero evidence that we've overlooked over 1,000,000,000 cases of autism prior to 1943. Do the math, if we accept the CDC numbers, 1 in 50 autistic or so, or whatever number being currently used, and it's estimated that more than 100,000,000,000 people have walked the earth, it's simple math. By the CDC's numbers you're asking us to believe we've missed/overlooked closer to 2 Billion cases of autism in our existence. Aside from not being believable, it's a dangerous and irresponsible argument. Your argument wants us to ignore the cause of a very serious growing problem and accept it as normal.
pastera
NES Member
So you pulled the 1 billion out of your ass, like I thought.
You also didn't answer my previous post - Why the switch from MMR to DTP?
You also never answered my question on why you are so passionate on this subject - I live it every day of my life so your unfounded assertions would be laughable if they didn't get enough traction to distract from the real issues that older neuro-diverse people face everyday.
Try reading this The missing generation
Absorb that article and then tell me that there are no cases of autism to be had in the past...
Sorry you're triggered by the math, but it's very straightforward. I'm not sure I ever made the claim that the MMR vaccine was the sole cause of autism. I haven't even made the claim that vaccines in general are the only cause of autism. You are aware the DTP shot was the shot that was behind the 1986 Childhood Vaccine Injury Act, right?
pastera
NES Member
I'm triggered by math - quite the joke if you knew me.
You haven't countered a single point, answered a single question or presented a single study or article in support of your assertions.
Pastera, you're making an extraordinary claim. Not me. You're making the claim humanity missed 1 -2 billion cases of autism. There isn't a whisper of the disorder before the 1940's in any historical document, cultural reference, medical or psychiatric or mental health documentation.......anywhere, ever. I'm calling BS. Believe what you want.
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Um, neither of these is quite right. "Herd immunity" means that so many of the population is immune - whether from vaccines or because they've had it before - that the disease can't spread. If one infected individual is surrounded by immune individuals, the disease has nowhere to spread to. You can mathematically calculate the minimum %age of a population that has to be immune in order for herd immunity to apply.
As for "the flu," it's not one virus. It's a swarm of dozens of closely related viruses, and new ones are appearing all the time. That's why you can get the vaccine and still get the flu: you caught a strain that the vaccine didn't protect against. That's also why an unlucky person can get it this year and again next year - they didn't get the same flu twice, they got two different strains.
How much time do your kids spend outside? One recent hypothesis that I happen to agree with is that a lot of kids don't spend enough time outside, exposed to pathogens, and so their immune systems don't get built up properly. The same factor is thought to be partly responsible for the huge increase in allergies.
No more so than people who are experienced at seeing through the fallacies of anti-gun arguments falling prey to anti-vaccine arguments that contain the same fallacies. "Moderation in all things," said Ben Franklin. Even bureaucrats aren't always wrong.
Works for me.
pastera
NES Member
You are creating a straw man 1 billion cases of autism and now are adding the additional caveat of before 1942.
The assertion that autism doesn't appear before the 1940's is demonstrably wrong: History of Autism | Project Autism
Call BS all you want, your premise is wrong as is your math.
Until the mid-20th century we didn't even have the robust scientific language to describe autism never mind diagnose it - Are you saying high blood pressure didn't exist until the sphygmomanometer was developed?
Gratuitous links for evidence you are incorrect in your assertions
Evidence for autism in folklore?
History's 30 Most Inspiring People on the Autism Spectrum - Applied Behavior Analysis Programs Guide
Pastera, you seem to have a need to believe the theory that autism was somehow missed and overlooked by countless cultures, for centuries. You can lie to yourself all you want, and believe it if you want, I’ll pass.
pastera
NES Member
Did you read the link "Evidence for autism in folklore?"
I'll repost it so that you don't have to go back a couple of posts to find it - Evidence for autism in folklore?
Autism wasn't missed, ever. We simply didn't have the language to describe it. There are a lot of things that were observed in history which were not given accurate descriptions if they were described at all.
Are you a sophist or just obtuse?
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So, you're ok with people opting out of Polio vaccination? OK with Diptheria coming back?
Diphtheria once was a major cause of illness and death among children. The United States recorded 206,000 cases of diphtheria in 1921, resulting in 15,520 deaths. Diphtheria death rates range from about 20% for those under age five and over age 40, to 5-10% for those aged 5-40 years. Death rates were likely higher before the 20th century. Diphtheria was the third leading cause of death in children in England and Wales in the 1930s.[1]
Since the introduction of effective immunization, starting in the 1920s, diphtheria rates have dropped dramatically in the United States and other countries that vaccinate widely. Between 2004 and 2008, no cases of diphtheria were recorded in the United States. However, the disease continues to play a role globally. In 2007, 4,190 cases of diphtheria were reported, which is likely an underestimate of the actual number of cases
Do you know how Diptheria kills a child? It's like something out of Alien:
The most notable feature of diphtheria infection, however, is the formation of a thick gray substance called a pseudomembrane over the nasal tissues, tonsils, larynx, and/or pharynx.
The pseudomembrane is formed from waste products and proteins caused by the toxin secreted by the bacteria. The pseudomembrane sticks to tissues and may obstruct breathing. The toxin itself may travel to the heart, muscle, kidneys, and liver, where it may temporarily or permanently damage these organs.
The pseudomembrane is formed from waste products and proteins caused by the toxin secreted by the bacteria. The pseudomembrane sticks to tissues and may obstruct breathing. The toxin itself may travel to the heart, muscle, kidneys, and liver, where it may temporarily or permanently damage these organs.
If you never have known a single person who had Diptheria, or heard of a child who died of it, that's because of vaccination. But vaccines are the big danger??
Note to be clear - those summaries are cumulative, and you don't add the Preschool doses to those required for K-6 - they're already in there. Most kids will then have 16 doses, total. College doesn't have as strict requirements - I'm guessing in part because some are not encouraged once you are older, like polio.
Read the first sentence of your own citation http://mail.neurodiversity.com/library_kanner_1943.pdf it does not agree with your assertion and pretty much settles the case. Thanks for posting it.
Diphtheria was a filth disease, and was in steep decline before the vaccine was introduced.
http://www.dissolvingillusions.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/G11.9-US-Diphtheria-T-1900-1967.png
Check citation 3 of your own article, its the citation that allegedly shows autism existed in folklore...it didn't, and the first sentence of the article slams the door closed on your theory that autism has existed unnoticed for centuries.
pastera
NES Member
First - I don't believe that is my link.
Second - Your link simply doesn't support your assertion; It simply records a particular clinicians exposure and study of a series of patients
Third - Eugen Bleuler created the term autism in 1908
What is the History of Autism Spectrum Disorder?
Went back to check on where the link came from - it was reference 3 from my cite.
You, Mr @HerbWest, are an obtuse sophist of the first order.
For others who might actually read and have the capability to understand here is the section that the reference is part of
My assertion is fully supported by my citation - that autism clearly existed before its formal recognition.
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pastera
NES Member
@HerbWest
Just so that you understand what I was saying...
obtuse - Dictionary Definition
sophist - Dictionary Definition
Just so that you understand what I was saying...
obtuse - Dictionary Definition
sophist - Dictionary Definition
I read the 1908 date as well, but it included a bunch of disorders that are no longer under the autism spectrum. I know, at my age, autism was never really spoken of that I can remember when I was a kid and I'm 47. This term has been used as it currently is for not that long a period of time. But Herb is as fanatical as anti-gunners when it comes to this. Facts are batted away, false narratives are thrown forward. Studies are flawed, but anecdotal evidence is king. Add to that, as they 'discover' new issues they lump them into autism/ADHD.
If you (in the general sense) don't want to vax your kids, don't, but deal with the ramifications of your decision.
pastera
NES Member
Corynebacterium diphtheriae | MSDSonline
You don't need filth when the bacterium can live in soil for a year - sanitary habits can reduce the incidence of the disease but to eradicate it takes both sanitation and a vaccine.
mibro
NES Member
I remember taking one of the early oral polio vaccines - a pink liquid dropped onto a sugar cube - in 1965 or thereabouts. I remember my father, a biochemist, being quite excited about it, excited about the novelty of the science and also excited about immunizing his children against polio.
The oral polio vaccine was a wonderful achievement and anyone who refuses it for their children, then or now, is an idiot.
Does that mean the government has the right to compel everyone to take it, under threat of violence? My answer remains no.
Oh yes, I also dodged a bullet as the oral polio vaccine I received was probably not contaminated with SV40. Tens of millions of children did receive SV40-contaminated oral polio vaccine however. No-one knows how many of them died later from SV40-induced mesothelioma or other cancers because no-one wants to know. One can acquire certainty only by amputating inquiry.
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How about Measles? Is that a 'filth disease'? because it's coming back right now among the anti-vaccine crowd. But I suppose the anti-vaccine families are all filthy, right?
Actually, Measles is one of the most contagious diseases we know of.
Most measles-related deaths are caused by complications associated with the disease. Serious complications are more common in children under the age of 5, or adults over the age of 30. The most serious complications include blindness, encephalitis (an infection that causes brain swelling), severe diarrhoea and related dehydration, ear infections, or severe respiratory infections such as pneumonia.
Estimates are that Measles vaccination since 2000 has saved about a million lives per year worldwide.
and infecting your neighbors.
Actually, Measles is one of the most contagious diseases we know of.
Most measles-related deaths are caused by complications associated with the disease. Serious complications are more common in children under the age of 5, or adults over the age of 30. The most serious complications include blindness, encephalitis (an infection that causes brain swelling), severe diarrhoea and related dehydration, ear infections, or severe respiratory infections such as pneumonia.
A US army-wide measles outbreak in 1917–18 resulted in more than 95 000 cases and more than 3000 deaths. It had 5% mortality rate. A lot of those were death by secondary pneumonia, but how stupid is it to risk getting complications when the disease itself is entirely preventable? In the current outbreaks, it's of course not just the anti-vax families suffering, they just start the epidemics and let other people involuntarily take the risk of exposure. Estimates are that Measles vaccination since 2000 has saved about a million lives per year worldwide.
Once again, the vaccine is the boogeyman, and the disease with the funny name is just a joke? - 2018: The U.S. experienced 17 outbreaks in 2018. Three outbreaks in New York State, New York City, and New Jersey, respectively, contributed to most of the cases. Cases in those states occurred primarily among unvaccinated people in Orthodox Jewish communities. These outbreaks were associated with travelers who brought measles back from Israel, where a large outbreak is occurring. Eighty-two people brought measles to the U.S. from other countries in 2018. This is the greatest number of imported cases since measles was eliminated from the U.S. in 2000.
- 2017: A 75-case outbreak was reported in Minnesota in a Somali-American community with poor vaccination coverage.
- 2015: The United States experienced a large (147 cases), multi-state measles outbreak linked to an amusement park in California. The outbreak likely started from a traveler who became infected overseas with measles, then visited the amusement park while infectious; however, no source was identified. Analysis by CDC scientists showed that the measles virus type in this outbreak (B3) was identical to the virus type that caused the large measles outbreak in the Philippines in 2014.
- 2014: The U.S. experienced 23 measles outbreaks in 2014, including one large outbreak of 383 cases, occurring primarily among unvaccinated Amish communities in Ohio. Many of the cases in the U.S. in 2014 were associated with cases brought in from the Philippines, which experienced a large measles outbreak.
and infecting your neighbors.
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