Trigger job. Compliancy ?

[Da_lucche]

Is this thread still going? OP, modifying your trigger from 11lb to 6lb AFTER you buy from a FFL is not illegal. Jesus. Ive done this with all of my trigger molested MA new handguns I've bought

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[Stumpthumper]

I'm not sure why everyone is presupposing what a prosecutor would do about trigger pull modification of you used your gun in self defense. The only reason for that law is to try and prevent a child from firing your pistol. It's a consumer protection law on the manufacturer and ffl. Nothing more.
Unless the modification played some role in the the act itself and was a reason for the harm it wouldn't even be admissible. Ie... didn't mean to shoot him but I modified the trigger so the gun went off by mistake. Even then the issue would be more likely civil since your actions might now be reckless and not just negligent. Even then you have your defenses.

 

[Billsail]

I believe the outcome of the FL case had just as much to do with the fact that he cocked the hammer, as well as the modification.

 

[Quiet]

I never heard of a case where the state takes the pistol apart to look for modifications. Nor have I heard of a case where the equipment played a role in anything. Its really a use of force issue. That said with the corruption of many state s nothing is off the table. Me personally I have no problem modifying EDC to improve my ability with it. If it ever was the case that the state mentioned the trigger I'd point out the NYPD case at the Sears office building in which the cops with their 11lb triggers shot 9 bystanders.

sent from my NSA approved phone

The Zimmerman porksecutor spent a lot of time attacking, insinuating, making a big deal out of the fact that Zimmerman "ZOMG HAD A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER!!!!"

It's not an empty concern, but that said I zOMG! carry my gun in a manner where it is ready to be used if it should ever come to an unfortunate moment in time where I needed to defend myself and god forgive me needed to use it it should be ready. (Got that Marsha?)

 

[oldsoldier29]

There has yet to be a case tried in this state regarding trigger pull, that I could find. Mind you, the law requiring the sale of new firearms with a certain trigger pull are because of some safety test to pass the ag list, Which alternately does, and does not, exist. After market mods are irrelevant.

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[M1911]

I believe the outcome of the FL case had just as much to do with the fact that he cocked the hammer, as well as the modification.

Ayoob worked a case where the prosecutor alleged that the shooter cocked his revolver and then accidentally shot the perp. This is one reason for Ayoob's recommendation that you carry a DAO revolver (or bob the hammer and remove the single action notch). If your revolver is DAO then you take away the "hair-trigger" argument from the prosecution.

Having competed in IDPA for a year using a revolver, I can say that for me removing single action capability is not a problem. The few times that I tried cocking my revolver on difficult shots, it hurt my score rather than helped. I was just as accurate firing double action and it took less time.

 

[M1911]

I never took a class with him just from his articles he pretty much advises against it. The thing is trigger pull is relative to the shooter 6lbs might be fine for a guy but a female shooter it coul be less.

I personally don't think a defensive pistol should be less than 4lbs but that's my opinion

Ayoob was perhaps a little more nuanced in his classes than in some of his articles.

 

[GunGrey]

True

 

[Smash05]

I have the same concern and that's the main reason I have not done an apex job on my shield yet and trust me it drastically needs it. I have posed the same question here and can't get a definitive answer.

In my opinion and mine only. I would think a prosecutor would treat a trigger job the same way they would if you shot someone with home made reloaded bullets. I feel like he would say "so Mr. Jones. You modified the factory trigger so it would be easier to kill someone! Is that correct Mr. Jones?"


Ma LTC
GOAL Member

I've seen gun cases charged and prosecuted, I have watched murder cases first hand. The only thing the Commonwealth is going to do is ask the ballistician if the gun is actually a gun, and if the ammunition meets the definition of ammunition in MA. That is it. I have yet to see a ballistics report that highlighted trigger weight - as the compliance bs is something that only applies to dealers. No prosecutor worth their salt is going to waste their time on that.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I've seen gun cases charged and prosecuted, I have watched murder cases first hand. The only thing the Commonwealth is going to do is ask the ballistician if the gun is actually a gun, and if the ammunition meets the definition of ammunition in MA. That is it. I have yet to see a ballistics report that highlighted trigger weight - as the compliance bs is something that only applies to dealers. No prosecutor worth their salt is going to waste their time on that.

Unless perhaps the shooter tries to "help" the police and admits to doing a trigger job, etc. More people talk themselves into jail than not. I could foresee a lot of NES'rs doing just that, perhaps with dire consequences.

 

[Stumpthumper]

I've seen gun cases charged and prosecuted, I have watched murder cases first hand. The only thing the Commonwealth is going to do is ask the ballistician if the gun is actually a gun, and if the ammunition meets the definition of ammunition in MA. That is it. I have yet to see a ballistics report that highlighted trigger weight - as the compliance bs is something that only applies to dealers. No prosecutor worth their salt is going to waste their time on that.

+100

 

[Smash05]

Unless perhaps the shooter tries to "help" the police and admits to doing a trigger job, etc. More people talk themselves into jail than not. I could foresee a lot of NES'rs doing just that, perhaps with dire consequences.

This, and also admission of a party opponent all the more reason to

 

[mark056]

Unless perhaps the shooter tries to "help" the police and admits to doing a trigger job, etc. More people talk themselves into jail than not. I could foresee a lot of NES'rs doing just that, perhaps with dire consequences.

If people "share" with the coppers the way they do here there is going to be new blood in the MCI's and that includes some of the folks who most loudly proclaim; never talk to the police.

 

[fencer]

I can see someone saying " I didn't mean to shoot him! I installed a hair trigger and it just went off!"

You have the right to remain silent......

 

[schnips]

Take the gun to Business End Customs in Peabody. He does great trigger jobs on the M&Ps. I have two friends who have gotten M&P trigger jobs there and the difference is like night and day. I've heard of several members here using him as well.

 

[OfficerObie59]

I've seen gun cases charged and prosecuted, I have watched murder cases first hand. The only thing the Commonwealth is going to do is ask the ballistician if the gun is actually a gun, and if the ammunition meets the definition of ammunition in MA. That is it. I have yet to see a ballistics report that highlighted trigger weight - as the compliance bs is something that only applies to dealers. No prosecutor worth their salt is going to waste their time on that.

It's not whether the prosecution wants to waste the time, but whether they will be allowed to.

I simply don't see how it's admissible on simple relevance (think 401) unless you're claiming the shooting was accidental and your finger slipped.

 

[OfficerObie59]

I'm not sure why everyone is presupposing what a prosecutor would do about trigger pull modification of you used your gun in self defense. The only reason for that law is to try and prevent a child from firing your pistol. It's a consumer protection law on the manufacturer and ffl. Nothing more.

Eh, laws are often used in ways not intended when passed. Child protection is also the purpose behind the safe storage law in 131L.

Doesn't mean the police have never charged it against a homeowner whose unsecured guns were stolen by a burglar.

 

[swampy]

I have a S&W 9C with cam with a ridiculous 11.5 lb trigger pull. I did a trigger job using the APEX kit. Trigger is now around 6 lbs. I was told today that if I had to use the gun in self defense (God forbid) I may be in trouble.
Thoughts ? Should I go back and undo the trigger job ?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks

There is enough evidence that a lousy trigger makes accuracy suffer. A trigger job protects innocent lives that Massachusetts puts at risk by requiring a heavy trigger pull.

 

[Smash05]

It's not whether the prosecution wants to waste the time, but whether they will be allowed to.

I simply don't see how it's admissible on simple relevance (think 401) unless you're claiming the shooting was accidental and your finger slipped.

It's likely not. And I'm not sure a prosecutor could lay a foundation as to its relevance, or it's admissibility, as it's not likely in the ballisticians report. Would have to come in through a lay witness, and does that witness have the qualifications to opine on its meaning or relevance. Just don't see it. You don't just get to say whatever you want in a courtroom.

 

[M1911]

I simply don't see how it's admissible on simple relevance (think 401) unless you're claiming the shooting was accidental and your finger slipped.

That exact claim has been made by the prosecution in the past - it wasn't self defense because the defendant didn't intend to shoot, therefore the defendant is guilty of some sort of manslaughter. Yes, it is BS, but that exact BS has put defendants behind bars.

 

[GPP]

That exact claim has been made by the prosecution in the past - it wasn't self defense because the defendant didn't intend to shoot, therefore the defendant is guilty of some sort of manslaughter. Yes, it is BS, but that exact BS has put defendants behind bars.

Example?

 

[M1911]

Example?

Ayoob referenced two. One in New York and the Alvarez case in Florida. IIRC, he was an expert witness in both cases.

 

[beaker]

Just testify that you didn't want to get "Finger Cramps" and suffer permanent physical harm from the 12 lb trigger.

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[GPP]

Ayoob referenced two. One in New York and the Alvarez case in Florida. IIRC, he was an expert witness in both cases.

Thank you

 

[OfficerObie59]

That exact claim has been made by the prosecution in the past - it wasn't self defense because the defendant didn't intend to shoot, therefore the defendant is guilty of some sort of manslaughter. Yes, it is BS, but that exact BS has put defendants behind bars.

Perhaps, but the prosecution would have to have some evidence to show their theory of the case. Despite what most people around here think, most prosecutors don't make up shit out of thin air.

 

[M1911]

Perhaps, but the prosecution would have to have some evidence to show their theory of the case. Despite what most people around here think, most prosecutors don't make up shit out of thin air.

I believe in the Alvarez case that in his shock immediately after the shooting that Alvarez said something along the lines that he didn't mean to shoot him. Perhaps that is where the prosecution got their theory.

 

[WallHack]

I respect massad Ayoob

But Jesus Christ this idea needs to die a firey death. It's such a bullshit idea to begin with

+1,000,000,000

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Perhaps, but the prosecution would have to have some evidence to show their theory of the case. Despite what most people around here think, most prosecutors don't make up shit out of thin air.

True, most do not. However, the ones that do (think Reyes which conflated 131L and 131C) are extraordinarily creative.

 

[StevieP]

I have the same concern and that's the main reason I have not done an apex job on my shield yet and trust me it drastically needs it. I have posed the same question here and can't get a definitive answer.

The definitive answer is NO. It is NOT illegal.

 

[M1911]

True, most do not. However, the ones that do (think Reyes which conflated 131L and 131C) are extraordinarily creative.

Yeah, watching the ADA trying to defend that to the Supreme Judicial Court was amusing. What was it she said? "The two sections have to be read together."

The late Darius Arbabi told me of a case he defended where the defendant was charged with having a post-ban large capacity magazine. The gun he was carrying had a 10 round magazine plus 1 in the chamber. The ADA tried to claim that magazine capacity was therefore 11. Yes, that case actually made it to court. Arbabi won the case, but this is an example of a prosecutor making up shit out of thin air (or just being a moron). The defendant now has a police record including a felony arrest and prosecution, likely lost his LTC and guns, and had to pay Arbabi thousands of dollars. But, hey, what's to worry about? He won, right?

It may not happen often, but it does happen often enough.