transaction reporting responsability...

milktree

milktree

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Once upon a time (assuming I understood it then) the responsibility for reporting transactions fell on the seller alone.

e.g. if I bought a gun from jimbob, and jimbob failed to mail in the paper FA10, I was A-OK. Jimbob might get in trouble if the state noticed within 6 years and could prove he didn't mail it, but I, as the buyer, would be fine.


But then everything went silly (because "universal background check") and there's only the portal thingie.

So, say I bought a different gun from Sally-Jo, and she somehow managed to mess up the online form so it doesn't go through, would I be in trouble, too, or just Sally-Jo?
 
The simple answer is whether you are the Buyer or the Seller, the sale of a firearm has not happened until the online portal transfer provides confirmation of the transaction.
 
milktree said:
So, say I bought a different gun from Sally-Jo, and she somehow managed to mess up the online form so it doesn't go through, would I be in trouble, too, or just Sally-Jo?
Click to expand...

why wouldn't you just do it again if it 'messed up'? You know instantly whether it went through or not since it tells you right there and then with the transaction number.
 
its even more messed up if you sell a long gun out of state, say to someone in NH from MA as the system doesn't recognize anything out of state as it is a MA only system - you sell it and you can't do a form to say you sold it since it won't take a non MA dealer license or non resident license.
 
Kicker96FS said:
He's talking about before the online portal if I am not mistaken. There are no more paper FA-10 reporting accepted by FRB.
Click to expand...

The question is about legal liability if the transaction doesn't go through.

For instance (I'm just making up a story) the seller doesn't click the "GO" button, or she does, but the website returns an error and she doesn't notice. Then what? We both believe it happened, but it didn't.

Is she in trouble for failure to read the error and re-do, or am I in trouble for failing to record the transaction, or both of us?
 
Glockster30 said:
Why is this funny?
Click to expand...

Because the *sale* has nothing to do with the transaction recording.

The sale is a sale, regardless of if you tell the state.

In your version, if the transaction doesn't go through, there is no sale, and therefore no requirement to record the transaction.
 
milktree said:
Because the *sale* has nothing to do with the transaction recording.

The sale is a sale, regardless of if you tell the state.

In your version, if the transaction doesn't go through, there is no sale, and therefore no requirement to record the transaction.
Click to expand...
This. The sale may not be legal
 
milktree said:
Because the *sale* has nothing to do with the transaction recording.

The sale is a sale, regardless of if you tell the state.

In your version, if the transaction doesn't go through, there is no sale, and therefore no requirement to record the transaction.
Click to expand...

This is being blown out of proportion. I understand that the eFA-10 transaction doesn't record the sale per se. It records only the transaction, and what I am saying that if the eFA-10 system doesn't work, i.e., give the Buyer and Seller or for the sake of simplicity, the people involved in the transfer without confirmation that the transfer worked, then it is not a transfer, which can logically be applied to the fact the sale between the two individuals is not going to happen. I've read comments in the forum that it's okay to exchange information needed for the transaction, then go home and do the transaction online. Anyone that transfers a gun to someone and agrees to do the paperwork later is nuts.

BTW, I always ask for the Firearms License Validation whenever I do a transaction.
 
Last edited:
browncoat said:
This. The sale may not be legal
Click to expand...

And reporting it doesn't make it so.

Furthermore, the *sale* can be legal, even if the reporting doesn't happen.

There are separate bits of law for "selling to the wrong people" and "failure to report", but I can't decipher the "failure to report" bit anymore. The FA10 version was easy, it was right on the form.

Oddly, if two NH residents are in MA and one sells a gun to the other, they're required to report it to MA, even though that would be a 5th amendment violation.
 
milktree said:
And reporting it doesn't make it so.

Furthermore, the *sale* can be legal, even if the reporting doesn't happen.

There are separate bits of law for "selling to the wrong people" and "failure to report", but I can't decipher the "failure to report" bit anymore. The FA10 version was easy, it was right on the form.

Oddly, if two NH residents are in MA and one sells a gun to the other, they're required to report it to MA, even though that would be a 5th amendment violation.
Click to expand...
That probably wouldn't stand in federal courts. During the amnesty periods where nfa registrations were allowed, courts ruled that felons could not be charged with failure to register due to the fifth amendment problems
 
Glockster30 said:
This is being blown out of proportion. I understand that the eFA-10 transaction doesn't record the sale per se. It records only the transaction, and what I am saying that if the eFA-10 system doesn't work, i.e., give the Buyer and Seller or for the sake of simplicity, the people involved in the transfer without confirmation that the transfer worked, then it is not a transfer, which can logically be applied to the fact the sale between the two individuals is not going to happen. I've read comments in the forum that it's okay to exchange information needed for the transaction, then go home and do the transaction online. Anyone that transfers a gun to someone and agrees to do the paperwork later is nuts.
Click to expand...

You're missing the point.

The transfer happens as soon as the gun changes hands. That's a transfer.

The recording of that transfer either does or doesn't happen, but the transfer still happens.

Are you really going to tell me that if I hand you money and you hand me a gun, and we both go home, that's not a transfer?


But the question isn't about what a transfer is, it's about who has broken a law if the transfer doesn't get recorded properly. (whatever "properly" means, since there's no law that says the records have to match the inventory)

If Karen buys a gun from Janice, and Janice either screws up, or refuses to do the FA10 or equivalent, is Karen in deep doodoo, or just Janice?
 
milktree said:
You're missing the point.

Are you really going to tell me that if I hand you money and you hand me a gun, and we both go home, that's not a transfer?
Click to expand...

I guess that we are talking about different things here. Are you going to take money from someone and give them a gun without doing the transaction on eFA-10?
 
milktree said:
And reporting it doesn't make it so.

Furthermore, the *sale* can be legal, even if the reporting doesn't happen.

There are separate bits of law for "selling to the wrong people" and "failure to report", but I can't decipher the "failure to report" bit anymore. The FA10 version was easy, it was right on the form.

Oddly, if two NH residents are in MA and one sells a gun to the other, they're required to report it to MA, even though that would be a 5th amendment violation.
Click to expand...

Why would two NH residents sell a gun to one another in MA? It doesn't make sense.

With regard to the FA-10 paper system, it wasn't always that easy. I sold, transferred, handed over, gave (use whatever description you want to call it) another NES member a G19 that we recorded on a paper FA-10 early in 2014. This occurred about 3 weeks before my LTC renewal date. I sent the FA-10 in with a letter describing the transaction. About 2 months later, the member that I transferred the gun to received a letter from the FRB telling him that the FA-10 wasn't done properly and not was accepted or words to that effect. I never figured out why it didn't go through because I believe at that time paper FA-10 forms were still good to use. BTW, he supplied the FA-10 even though I wanted to do the eFA-10 in a DD parking lot.

In any event, to resolve the matter, I asked him for his PIN # and then did the transaction by eFA-10 and never heard another word about it. It's interesting because if it had anything to do with my LTC expiring, I never received anything from the FRB as the person that transferred the firearm. However, as the transferee, he received the letter from FRB.

- - - Updated - - -

Kicker96FS said:
That happens all the time in alleys and out the trunk of cars by bad people! You know, the ones that don't obey laws.
Click to expand...

I understand, but that it not what I was discussing.
 
I am not aware of any law that requires adding a serial number to one not requiring a number by law (for example, pre-1968 guns or shost guns build from 80% lowers)

Has anyone on this list built an 80% lower into a gun and reported such on an eFA-10 without a serial number?
 
Has someone answered the question and I just missed it?

If the eFA10 filing doesn't complete, are both parties at fault, or just the seller?
 
rlee said:
Has someone answered the question and I just missed it?

If the eFA10 filing doesn't complete, are both parties at fault, or just the seller?
Click to expand...

it hasn't been answered.

l'll answer it, just keep in mind I am not a lawyer and don't take my advice.

So far as I understand it, the seller is responsible for filing the efa 10. If seller fails to do it or screws it up, the buyer isn't in trouble. The seller is.

But it this is MA. Who the f knows.
 
Why would two NH residents sell a gun to one another in MA? It doesn't make sense.

They were both craving good Chinese food [smile]
 

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